Talk:Ben Dunkelman

Writing
The writing in this is very unclear, as are the sources. The article is about Dunkelman, not the Arab-Israeli conflict, so please stick directly to his biographical details. It's also not clear why the reference to Kidron is included, or what the large block quote comes from or has to do with Dunkelman. Clarification and correct citations would be appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Rather than reverting without comment, could you please explain your edits, because they are extremely unclear. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I should definitely have used the "inuse" tag earlier; I´ve had 2 or 3 edit-conflicts with you earlier on this page tonight, which makes things confusing.
 * As for the article: yes, of course the article is about Dunkelman, but the part of his life that has most interest for the world in general is, as far as I know, his role in the 1948 war. If you know of other parts of his life which merits mentioning/expanding; please feel free to do so. (His role in WWII could also be elaborated). As for correct citations, I might for easiness (it is very late here;-/) just insert it (hidden) in the text for now. If there is anything which is unclear to you, please point it out to me. Thank you. Regards, Huldra 03:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The in-use tag is still up, so have you finished or are you still editing? The unclear blockquote section is also still there. What does that section have to do with Dunkelman? And can we have a full citation, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I just saw your edit summary about inserting hidden sources. Please don't do that. The sources must be listed after the sentence or paragraph they're supporting, either with footnotes, embedded links, or Harvard references, then a full citation should be given in the References section. See WP:CITE. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * [Edit conflict]I just inserted full citation into the text (two places) so everything I have added is now fully sourced. The blockquote section is a quote from Dunkelman, so I really don´t understand your question "What does that section have to do with Dunkelman?" However, there is still a LOT lacking in this article; eg. he had a life between 1948 and 1997 which isn´t mentioned at all(!) Please feel free to add any information you would like. Regards, Huldra 03:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, it doesn't say it's a quote from Dunkelman, or at least didn't when I last looked. So it's in his autobiography? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:08, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I´m too tired to do it correctly just now (I´ll leave that to you;-) ) ..I just wanted to know: is anything wrong with the blockquote? Huldra 03:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Truth Whereby Nations Live
I can't find any reference to this on Amazon. Can you give a full citation, please? Also, why would the blockquote section be in his book and not Dunkelman's? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Truth Whereby Nations Live is a chapter in the book "Blaming the Victims" (ed.: Edward W. Said and Christopher Hitchens), which I´m sure you will find on Amazon. (The full ref. to the book is in the article ref.section.) Peretz Kidron was Dunkelmans ghostwriter. As to why the quote is in this book (and not Dunkelmans) is a too long story for me to tell now, but it is all in that chapter. The book should be easy to get hold of. Regards, Huldra 04:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Huldra, please give correct citations. It's very time-consuming to have to keep on asking questions. We don't cite book chapters. Is it a chapter, or is it an article? (Yet another question.) I'm going to remove that section until this is clarified, and why it's not in the autobiography. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Every single thing you have asked for is in the article already. You can hardly blame others if you cannot be bothered to read the whole article. As to the Dunkelman quote: to my knowledge nobody has ever doubtet its truthfulness. (And this was published while Dunkelman was alive, so if there had been any questions about it they could easily have been raised.) If you remove this quote without any source saying that it is not authentic I will consider it as vandalism. Regards, Huldra 04:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You can call it whatever you like, but the article can't stay as you left it. First, please don't correct my English. This is the English Wikipedia. I appreciate your efforts to write in a language that isn't your own, which I think takes courage, but at the same time, please understand that it introduces errors that others have to correct, and it isn't fair to make us correct the same sections three or four times.
 * Please do not restore the disputed section until it is discussed. First, it's not clear who the source is. Is it this translator (not ghost writer), or is it Dunkelman? Second, you wrote that D's book was published in 1976 (therefore before the publication of the disputed account), but Amazon and all sources I can find say 1984 (i.e. after it), including the ISBN number you gave yourself. This confusion has to be sorted out. If this is Dunkelman's story, why is it not in Dunkelman's own biography? If it isn't, I don't see how we can use it. If it is, we can quote him directly, rather than a translator.
 * It seems to me that you're trying make a political point here, rather than writing the man's biography in a complete and honest way. Why is this story, of all the stories he tells, the most important one and the only one you want to include?
 * Also, please do read WP:CITE for how to write citations and how to format embedded links. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The Library of Congress catalog (an ideal place to look for such information) gives 1976 as the publication year of Dunkelman's book. A similar quotation of Dunkelman regarding Nazareth is repeated by Simcha Flapan in J. Palestine Studies Vol. 16, No. 4. (Summer, 1987), pp. 3-26 which cites an interview of Dunkelman published in Haolam Hazeh in 1980. All the essential facts of the event: the surrender document, Laskov's role, the orders for expulsion, Dunkelman's refusal, the withdrawal of the order, Dunkelman's transfer, are documented on page 419 of Morris, Birth..Revisited and associated endnotes. The version of Morris does not appear to have any disagreement on fact from the version of Dunkelman as reported by either Kidron or Flapan. The story of Nazareth should be on Nazareth in detail, but a summary belongs here since this is the issue over which Dunkelman is most known today. One last comment: of course we cite book chapters. --Zerotalk 13:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, of course we don't cite book chapters, at least not without giving a proper citation to the book itself. Jayjg (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Books, not chapters, are cited, and it's still not clear whether it's a chapter or an essay. I'm assuming the latter, but Huldra has so far declined to clarify. It's the "version of Dunkelman as reported by Kidron" that concerns me. Kidron is a translator, as I understand it, so is he a reputable source in this regard? What does Flapan say exactly, and why didn't Dunkelman include it in his own autobiography? I'm confused as to why Huldra, who seems to have read the sources, won't give any information about them. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly: I cited both the chapter and the book (Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live, p. 85-97 in Blaming the Victims (ed.: Edward W. Said and Christopher Hitchens), 1988). That Slim has changed the the ref. to total nonsense ("Kidron, Peretz. Blaming the Victims. Edward W. Said and Christopher Hitchens (eds.) 1988, p.85-97 "), well, that is her responsebility, not mine.
 * Secondly; Slim, please adhere to WP:AGF. I can (and will: give me 24 hours) elaborate on the story here (just please forgive me for not beeing on WP 24/7), but I would like you to read what Zero has said above. The Nazareth incident is indeed the one thing Dunkelman is known for (at least outside Canada/Israel). And I have seen nobody, and I mean nobody denying the story. If you could come up with a source even questioning the story, well that would be a different game. I was quite suprised to see that the article does not mention it. (Yes, I know: I should have known better ;-D)  Regards, Huldra 23:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect our disagreement on the chapter issue is a misunderstanding. The book "Blaming the Victims" is an anthology of articles by different authors, each presented as a separate chapter.  The contents of each article/chapter have to be attributed to the author of that article/chapter.  So, to cite it properly, the article/chapter title and author has to be given, and also the title and editors of the book in which it appears have to be given.  We don't disagree on that, surely?  --Zerotalk 23:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Zero, thank you, I wasn´t sure, but I tried to do that. I thought that adding too much information would be better than adding too little. The way the ref. is left now: I do not know how anybody who is not very familiar with the subject will find the material. Eg. I remembered reading about Dunkelman years ago in the book "Blaming the victims", but when I started rereading the book some days ago I could not find the story at once, as there is no name reg. at the back of the book (and I could not remember Kidrons name). So, Zero; could you please change the ref. on the article page so that it is the correct one? Thanks, Regards Huldra 23:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have the book handy and it's a long time since I read it. If Kidron explains why these details are not in Dunkelman's book, please tell us. --Zerotalk 01:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Kidron has a very good reputation as a translator. Other examples of his translations from Hebrew to English are Yitzhak Rabin's autobiography, Michael Bar-Zohar's official biography of Ben-Gurion, and books on history, literature, and art.  In recent years, Kidron is also known as a political activist. --Zerotalk 23:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Zero, my confusion is this, and Huldra seems determined not to address it. (1) If Kidron is a translator whose first language is not English (which is my understanding), it's highly unlikely that Dunkelman, whose first language was English, would have chosen him as a ghostwriter. As a translator for the Hebrew edition, perhaps, but not as a ghostwriter of the English edition, unless of course it was first published in Hebrew (and that might account for the publication date discrepancy). (2) Why would a translator be regarded as a reliable source in this area? (3) Why is the material not in Dunkelman's autobiography if he told it to Kidron (who, according to Huldra, was D's ghostwriter)? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough about the relationship between Kidron and Dunkelman to say that "ghostwriter" is a correct description, however Dunkelman's preface (readable at Amazon) says "Finally my special thanks to Peretz Kidron for his assistance in assembling the final manuscript" so Peretz was certainly involved with the book. A translator has to have excellent fluency in both languages, so your argument there is not good.  The Hebrew edition of Dunkelman's book was published in 1977 so probably it came second (but the dates are too close to be certain).  An interview of Dunkelman by Kidron was published in Haolam Hazeh in 1980 and parts of it were repeated later by Kidron and also repeated by Flapan (the parts quoted by Flapan are essentially the same as what Huldra quoted from Kidron).  Given that a standard academic history (Morris) agrees on all the facts, especially on Dunkelman's refusal to expel the Arabs of Nazareth in violation of the agreement he had just signed with them, I don't see how there is sufficient reason to dismiss Peretz as a source.  I would also like to know why this episode does not appear in Dunkelman's book, but it should be noted that Dunkelman's book does not disagree with it.  His book stops right after the surrender agreement (p269) and does not even mention the subsequent expulsion order (which Morris proves from multiple sources including Ben-Gurion's diary), so it is obvious that some decision was made to exclude that part of the story.  Kidron's article probably explains it, but here is my humble guess: Dunkelman submitted his manuscript to the Israeli censors and they deleted the passage according to the normal practice of the time, just as happened with Rabin's autobiography (an episode also involving Kidron).  --Zerotalk 01:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the "Israeli censors" in this case was probably his wife ;-) ...I´m adding the text onto a file: User:Huldra/Newstuff. It will take some hours before it is ready. Huldra 01:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Zero, that's very helpful. I've heard a Kidron interview and while his English is good, it's by no means perfect and I can't imagine a native English speaker employing him as a ghostwriter; also, "assistance in assembling the final manuscript" isn't suggestive of ghostwriting or translating. I didn't realize the 1980 Haolam Hazeh article was actually an interview with Dunkelman, in which Dunkelman himself tells the story for that article. If that's the case, I have no objection to using it, of course (though most of it should go in the Nazareth article, not here), but Huldra gave the impression it was just an article by Kidron, which I would question as a reliable source. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A footnote here, many years later. I knew Peretz Kidron, and he was indeed a native English speaker. He was born and brought up in Manchester. RolandR (talk) 07:43, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Also, I noticed some phrases in the version I reverted that seemed to be lifted directly from some websites e.g. "deeply attached to his Jewish roots." Please do not lift material from the Web without quoting or attributing it. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The sentence "deeply attached to his Jewish roots" was in the article when I started ediying it, I didn´t think of checking the article for possible plagiarism. Thank you for doing so. (I have no idea as to who added that sentence.) Regards,Huldra 19:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * PS: I assume Slim will apply her excellent newfound policy (" Please do not lift material from the Web without quoting or attributing it") to all articles she edits on WP, say Israeli Arabs -and start removing all the text there that has been lifted directly from websites without attribution. Regards, Huldra 23:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The plagiarism policy is hardly new, as you know, because I had to mention it to you back in October at Turki al-Hamad, where you were copying material word-for-word from websites without attribution. And no, I'm not going to take it upon myself to go around removing plagiarism from the entirety of Wikipedia, but I'll remove when I spot it, obviously. SlimVirgin (talk)  23:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Your claim about my editing in the Turki al-Hamad article is just that: your claim. Only. That whole article was, btw, copied/adopted from different web-sites. Normally I´m not very interested in that, I normally take my sources from books, Regards, Huldra 23:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * On October 4, 2005, at Turki al-Hamad, you added the words "thinly disguised sketch" to: "Turki Al-Hamad's novel The Winds of Paradise ... is a thinly disguised sketch of the lives of four of the hijackers."
 * That phrase was taken without attribution from a June 2005 New York Times article about al-Hamad by Neil MacFarquar.
 * That's called plagiarism and it isn't the only time I've seen you do it. If you want to use other people's words, you must quote them and give a citation. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Lol! This is really beautiful, it really is! And I´m horrified, horrified at the extent of my "plagiarism": three - 3 words copied six months (-5 days) ago without  citation! --oh, and btw: you "forgot" to mention that I gave that ref. on the Talk:Turki al-Hamad page: . I am waiting, -trembeling- for other revelations of my "plagiarism". Regards, Huldra 02:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to keep on arguing with you, because you're involved in deliberate time-wasting, and I'm certainly not going through your contribs to pull up more diffs. Whether you intended to plagiarize or not is irrelevant: you used someone else's prose without quotation marks, without attribution, and without adding the source to the References section. It's bad editing. That's the last I'm going to say about it. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I find your accusations (e.g."you're involved in deliberate time-wasting") offensive. Please review WP:NPA. Thank you. Regards, Huldra 05:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Info
"Born in Toronto on June 26, 1913; died of cancer in Toronto, June 11, 1997, aged 83." - The Globe and Mail, 8 July 1997.

"He was awarded the Distinguised Service Order for bravery under fire during the war and was called "the savior of western Galilee" by David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister." - Toronto Star, 12 June 1997 --Zerotalk 14:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Huldra/Newstuff
Ok, I have a question to you all (seriously): I am copying the most "vital" information from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live,( p. 85-97 in Blaming the Victims) on to User:Huldra/Newstuff. This file is a "sand-box" for me, if you like. But copying too much there would definitely be a copy-right violation. So, how much is "fair use"? (More than three words, I hope.) Can anybody give me some advise? Regards, Huldra 03:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have added some material into my "sandbox", about the relationship between Dunkelman and Kidron (according to Kidron). I´ll add some more (on why it did not get into the "Dual Life" book) -but I´m sure I´m violating the copyright here if I add too much? Perhaps I have violated it already? Anyway, I don´t think the book is difficult (or expensive) to get hold of: just checked abebooks: 50++ copies for sale, from $6.5 upwards. Huldra 05:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I have now added what I intend to add from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live, see User:Huldra/Newstuff. The text is word for word from Kidron, except where I have added [..]. I fear I have broken a zillion copyright laws. If so: please delete it. Huldra 06:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for posting that, Huldra. SlimVirgin <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks. It is somewhat different from what I guessed. --Zerotalk 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I just have another couple of questions. Zero said above that an interview of Dunkelman by Kidron was published in Haolam Hazeh in 1980. Is this another interview, or is this the same account by Kidron of what Dunkelman allegedly said to him? Also, did Dunkelman ever respond, do you know, to the publication of Kidron's account? However, even although I'm asking these questions, if that material was published by a reputable source (and Hitchens, Said, and their publisher count as such), we're not supposed to question it. But it would be good to know whether Kidron or anyone else ever responded, and it would probably also be a good idea to put most of it in Nazareth, though it can be referred to here too. I do find it odd that Dunkelman would have written so badly in the pencilled note. His family was wealthy and he could have been expected to have a good basic education. On the other hand, those spelling mistakes would be strange things for Kidron to make up. SlimVirgin <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * -Ok, I have expanded the text so that it includes what Kidron said about the 'Haolam Hazeh' -article. It is not much, I´m afraid. Someone with access to the July 1980 edition of Haólam Hazeh should check.
 * -If nobody cryes loud about copy-right violations I might include (in User:Huldra/Newstuff) the parts of Rabin´s memoirs that were cut out by the Israeli censors? (About BenGurions orders about expulsion: quite interesting, IMO)
 * -To my knowledge it is not recorded if Dunkelman ever responded to Kidron (publicly, that is), but it was published years before he died, so he would have had plenty opertunity.
 * -As to Dunkelmans spelling there is very obvious explanation (at least if you are dyslectic (dislectik? dyslektic?) -like myself) (I´ve had an excellent basic education and an excellent University education.....and just who on earth would believe that, looking at my spelling! Lol!). Btw, there might be spelling mistakes in the "newstuff"-file, but I checked Dunkelman´s "pencilled remarks" and they are exactly as in the book.
 * -As for inserting some of this into the Nazareth article: yes, definitely. Actually; that article is one of the worst I have seen on WP: about 80-90% of the article seem to be about whether or not the town excisted some 2000 years ago?! Totally absurd.  Regards, Huldra 10:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I searched a newspaper archive that covers a lot of newspapers (but the coverage around 1980 is not very thick). I also searched some full-text journal archives that cover hundreds of journals. I found nothing that adds any information to this story, and in fact I found hardly anything at all. Certainly no reply from Dunkelman. I don't find this too surprising because the story is not all that newsworthy. The 1948 war produced lots of stories like this, and Dunkelman is not famous enough for his fame to make the story bigger. As for Haolam Hazeh, Flapan's citation is "Peretz Kidron interview with Ben Dunkelman, Haolam Hazeh, 9 January 1980", but the only thing he quotes from it is the same text as quoted in what Huldra brought us (with tiny wording changes consistent with being translated to Hebrew and back). It means that Peretz quoted it in Haolam Hazeh, but beyond that I can't say anything. --Zerotalk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a quick note before I have to run: Kidron mentions that it was in the July 1980 edition of Haólam Hazeh (I rechecked the date in the book, in case I had transcribed it incorrectly. I hadn´t). That suggest there were at least two articles? Huldra 12:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no idea and it would be hard to find out (except for someone in Israel near a good library). --Zerotalk 13:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

As for what Wikipedia takes, I think that Nazareth needs a dry recitation of events (withoput the quotation) and the quotation, being more personal to Dunkelman, belongs here. --Zerotalk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Since Huldra added the story about the Rabin memoir, I can mention that it was published in Israel as soon as it was published in the NYT (since the NYT publication meant that Israeli censorship no longer applied to it) and Rabin confirmed it. In fact he told the same story to other people as well. --Zerotalk 11:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

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Reading too much into sources
For example, "The Christians of Nazareth had little interest in being incorporated into a Muslim state, whatever under the leadership of King Abdullah I of Jordan who wanted Palestine for himself or Muhammad Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the would-be future Palestinian leader who was being supported by King Farouk of Egypt and King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia. Despite a common opposition to Zionism, there were very strong fears within the Palestinian Christian community in 1948 that they would be the victims of sectarian violence in the event of an Arab victory. [Haiduc-Dale, Noah Arab Christians in British Mandate Palestine: Communalism and Nationalism, 1917-1948, Edinburgh: Edinburg University Press, 2013 p.185]" The first sentence has no source. It does not appear in the (nice) book of Haiduc-Dale and instead there are several references to positive connections between al-Husayni and Palestinian Christians. Abdullah is only mentioned once (p137) and not in this connection. I also object to "Muslim Palestine", a phrase not appearing in the book that acts to slant the understanding away from the more common "Arab Palestine". For the second sentence, it is not acceptable to jump from "Cohen suggests" to a statement of fact. Zerotalk 07:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't really see that any of this belongs in the article at all, (with the possible exception of the last part "Dunkelman's argument that expelling etc",) Presently the article makes no sense: if we were to believe it, it sound like the people of Nazareth would prefer to be ruled by ..people who wanted to expel them! It makes the people of Nazareth sound like the must gullible/stupid  people..ever, Huldra (talk) 21:03, 3 July 2020 (UTC)