Talk:Ben Freeth

The Title Deed
I dispute the following statement:

" Campbell purchased Mount Carmel from himself after independence (the full title was vested in 1999, when the Zimbabwean government declared no interest in the land).[4] "

Actually the The Economist blurb that the link refers to states the following: " They seemed set on staying. According to a government requisition act of 1999, this land belonged to them and to the poor blacks of Zimbabwe."

It doesn't say they bought the land in 1999 - they bought it in 1974, with a six figure loan from the Rhodesian government. In 1979, Mike Campbell sold part of it to Ben Freeth. This is on the Title Deed they hold up to the camera in Mugabe And The White African. It has the words 1979 and Zimbabwe on it, even though Zimbabwe didn't become independent until the elections of April 1980. The land changed hands before independence, which means the Lancaster House Constitution was not in effect. Also, during 1979, what is now Zimbabwe was called Rhodesia, Zimbabwe Rhodesia, and Southern Rhodesia. As the word Rhodesia is nowhere to be seen on the title deed, my guess it was greyed out by Ben Freeth or Mike Campbell. MrSativa (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You appear to have misunderstood what the Economist link says. The part of the article you quote refers to the black farm invaders, not Campbell and his family. The statement presently in the article is confirmed further down in the article. I've cut out the parts in question and quoted them below:
 * "In 2000, just as Robert Mugabe's land reforms gathered pace, 20 or 30 young black 'war veterans' appeared at Mike Campbell's farm, Mount Carmel, near Chegutu, 60 miles south-west of Harare. They seemed set on staying. According to a government requisition act of 1999, this land belonged to them and to the poor blacks of Zimbabwe. Mr Campbell offered them a shed to sleep in; he didn't want them chopping down his trees to build their huts. From that point, hoodlums from Mugabe's Zanu-PF Party kept turning up. Over the years, everything went. ... All that time he [Campbell] fought to hold on. ... The land, after all, was his. ... He bought it fair and square on the open market in 1975 [sic]—though it had to be stocked with guns like an armoury during those war years—and got a huge loan from the Land Bank to do so, which took him 24 years to repay. Mugabe came to power in 1980, but in 1999 the government declared 'no interest' in his land, and he got title. He wasn't moving."
 * So, yes, I think the version we have in the article is right, according to the cited source. I can't comment about the title deed in Mugabe and the White African as I haven't seen the film, but it would say "Zimbabwe" on it as they only got the deed in 1999, 19 years after that became the country's name. It's possible, considering that they had been on the land long before getting the deed, that it may have been antedated. But all this is speculation. I hope this reply is helpful. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:13, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I overlooked that. However, there is still the problem of the '1999' title deed. The Economist: " Mugabe came to power in 1980, but in 1999 the government declared “no interest” in his land, and he got title. He wasn't moving. " How did he 'get title' in 1999 when he bought it in 1974? And the 'title deed' in Mugabe And The White African said 1979? Why does it say Zimbabwe, not Republic Of Zimbabwe, as if it originally said Zimbabwe Rhodesia? MrSativa (talk) 04:47, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Alas, I am no expert on this kind of thing, but it could be that the deed was made after 1980 (in 1999 or at another time) and antedated to 1979 to reflect when the property was acquired by the deed holder (perhaps it was re-demarcated in 1979, for example). Alternately it could be that the deed was made between June and December 1979, when the country was called Zimbabwe Rhodesia, with the word "Rhodesia" removed later or hidden for the purposes of the film. Regarding its saying "Zimbabwe, not Republic Of Zimbabwe, as if it originally said Zimbabwe Rhodesia", it would surely have said "Republic Of Zimbabwe Rhodesia" if it were made in late 1979. As I posted above I don't know and this is all speculation. If you can find any reliable sources that shed some light on this that'd be great. I'll keep an eye out for something too. Thanks again and I hope this is helpful. —Cliftonian (talk) 17:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * What they hold up in Mugabe And The White African when they're talking about the title deed may be their eviction order. MrSativa (talk) 07:02, 14 December 2013 (UTC)