Talk:Bene Tleilax/Archive 1

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Votes for deletion/Bene Tleixiau

Pronunciation?
I've always wondered how you pronounce "Tleilax"

I've always thought the T was silent, making it something like "lay-lax". Is this correct?

Actual pronounciations on audio clips from Frank himself pronounce it "tlay-lax"Tleilax Master B 20:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Images: copyright and relevance
What's the copyright status of the images on this page? I assume they all come from Emperor: Battle for Dune.

Assuming that they're legal, I'm also not sure a couple of them are relevant: the ghola image and the face dancer image aren't particularly ghola- or face dancer-like, and I see from clicking on them that they depict, in fact, a Harkonnen infantryman and an Atreides sniper.

Excuse me for not being bold--just not certain enough to delete them without asking first. Iralith 00:02, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * yes, they are confusing... I think they should be on the game article page. Pics doesn't do the novels justice really! Delete them, I think the symbols/logos used for the various races are 21st century creations - by game boffins ... and can get canned or moved to the various relevent computa game articles. -max rspct 00:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I will remove those images that do not depict what is described in the paragraph alongside it. I'd be more reluctant in the removal of other images, because it might be interesting for a reader how something described is depicted in films, games, art, etc. Shinobu 14:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Seems sensible, but I'm still worried about the copyright situation with these images. Any insights there? Iralith 23:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I quote from Template:Screenshot (I didn't use the actual template because of the cat-link contained within):


 * ''This is a screenshot of a copyrighted website, video game graphic, computer program graphic, television broadcast, or film. It is believed that screenshots may be exhibited on Wikipedia under the fair use provision of United States copyright law.


 * If that is the way of the wiki, so be it. Shinobu 16:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Histories section
Is there a reference to "Xuttuh" in the original books by Frank Herbert, or is this another B.Herbert/K.Anderson creation? I don't have access to my copies of the original books at the moment. (Just to be clear, I'm one of those who doesn't regard anything not by Herbert Sr. as canonical.) RJCraig 04:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't recall any "xuttuh" in the original six. Justin Johnson 00:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, Xuttuh comes from House Atreides. It is not canonical. Chalom 22:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

spellings
In rereading Dune 1, and Messiah, I've noticed several instances of "Bene Tleilaxu" and "axolotl tanks". Are they just typos or what? 219.77.98.22 08:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Tleilaxu = Of Bene Tleilax (you'd be wrong to write it 'Tleilaxian') 80.179.13.34 20:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Confusion between Dune and its influences?
I'm quite worried that this page is actually a mix between what is known in Dune series (Herbert Sr. AND Herbert Jr.) plus what is just made for the games. Wouldn't it be better if the two were split in two, meaning that the Bene Tleilax page would have just data from the books, and a page named "Emperor of Dune: Tleilaxu" would have the game facts, technologies, etc? --Chalom 19:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * At the very least I would consider putting a horizontal line or other divisor between anything from the original series of books and everything that was added by others later on. That way readers have an overview of everything regarding the Tleilaxu and can easily tell what is canonical. In fact, adding references to appearances to every item seems like a sensible piece of information to me. How is this solved in articles about the other houses and Dune related items? --Rygir 08:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the statement "The founder of the Bene Tleilax was a Master named Xuttuh" should DEFINATELY NOT be included under the heading "the original series"--that is from the "new canon"Tleilax Master B 20:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I changed the game heading and split out the Xuttuh reference into a Prelude section. TAnthony 04:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

New Face Dancers
Is it entirely accurate to say "with the unintended side effect of gradually becoming that person." Isn't Tuek the only person in which that happens? The face dancers that were absorbing HMs for Waff didn't have that happen, nor have we seen any other example of that. If I am missing a reference let me know, but this seems to imply that ALL of the new face dancers will eventually "become" that person, and I don't think that is accurateTleilax Master B
 * I added the word "potential" to make this result less absolute, however some research is probably required to clear this issue up one way or the other. TAnthony 04:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Bijaz as Master
I've also posted this on the discussion page, but there is no definitive evidence that Bijaz is a Master. Its speculative based on the humming language and reference to "past lives" in DM. See my discussion there, I'm not sure he should be listed. Torg the Younger, Scytale (in Chapterhouse), Tylwyth Waff, and Mirlat are the only Masters specifically mentioned by name in the original Canon. ---Tleilax Master B —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.71.3.6 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 2 April 2007
 * You've made a good argument on Talk:Bijaz, so I've removed him as a "Notable Master", and also edited the footnotes here and at Face Dancer and ghola which also refer to him as a Master. TAnthony 21:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks TAnthony for taking the time to consider it and making the edits....---Tleilax Master B


 * Yo, Mastah B! You need to register an account! :) --SandChigger 04:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OK Chig, you talked me into it! Tleilax Master B 13:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation?
What is this about?


 * Emperor Worm
 * The Bene Tleilax and the Spacing Guild were also involved in the War of Assassins and attempted to create their own leader to control the Empire which was a genetic merger between some human qualities with that of the sand worms of Dune. This monstrous beast was the Emperor Worm and would have controlled the entire empire.

Removed from article pending citation. --SandChigger 01:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's the end-game of one of the Dune RTSs, isn't it? --Gwern (contribs) 02:00 8 April 2007 (GMT)


 * OK. In that case, if it's from Emperor: Battle for Dune then it was in the right place and just needs to be integrated into the article properly. (Could someone familiar with the game take care of this.) My bad...sort of. --SandChigger 06:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Axolotl vs Axlotl
I say follow the usage of the novels.


 * Axolotl: 2 occurrences, both in Dune Messiah
 * Axlotl: 47 occurrences (7 in God Emperor of Dune, 23 in Heretics of Dune, 17 in Chapterhouse Dune)

--SandChigger 09:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL, I did the research simultaneously, and made adjustments to the axlotl tank article (including a footnote on the spelling). TAnthony 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be suggested that since a lot of time passes between the books in the series, it was originally Axolotl and over the millenia was shortened to Axlotl, much in the same way Arrakis was shortened to Rakis and Caladan to Dan. HalfShadow 22:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Then tailor the usage to the period being discussed. --SandChigger 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I have nothing to do with it, I'm just suggesting a possible 'solution' as such. HalfShadow 05:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Tlaloc?
I don't want to start an edit war, but to me this is POV and makes no sense. Frank Herbert invented the term "Tleilaxu" in 1969's Dune Messiah, and the "Tl" similarity with the god Tlaloc is not enough to make such an unsourced connection. The fact that a character named Tlaloc is introduced in the Legends of Dune series in 2002 has nothing to do with the "origin" of the name. &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 04:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You have to forgive my ignorance in how to post a reply here! I apologize in advance. :(


 * 1) The text I wrote for the article doesn't state anything as fact that is not mentioned in the literature.
 * 2) The novels written by Herbert's son and Kevin J. Anderson are based on notes of Herbert's...I think that to omit something prefaced as a "point of interest" from the article entirely does a disservice to wikipedia readers. At the very least, it's an interesting "coincidence". I don't want to have a "war", especially over the internet, either. I just really have to voice my opinion by saying I do disagree with the total omission of the point(s) I made.
 * 3) Whether or not the later Dune novels are canonical literature is also POV, in my opinion; they are based on posthumous notes, so the decision to regard them as part of the "legendarium" is a matter of personal choice. To present factual information (the Nahuatl name, the inclusion of Tlaloc in the literature, etc.) allows the reader to decide. The conjecture is included as a point of interest, not as a fact. MJK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.207.226 (talk • contribs) 09:39, April 2, 2008


 * Thanks for your response. I certainly believe your addition was in good faith, however I ask that you familiarize yourself with No original research and Describing points of view. Basically, these policies establish that editors may not include their personal opinions, analysis or research in an article (regardless of how correct they may be), and that any interpretations or conclusions made must have a reliable source outside Wikipedia. In other words, you cannot simply assert that there is a similarity or connection between "Tleilaxu" and "Tlaloc" unless a published author (book, magazine, reliable non-fan website) has also made this connection. I am a huge advocate of presenting quotes from the texts and letting readers interpret for themselves when it comes to issues requiring such interpretation, but in this case I find the connection so vague that I cannot imagine any reference that would seem appropriate.
 * The prequels/sequels are indeed based on the notes, but there is little information available regarding the specifics, so we cannot make assumptions. BH/KJA have basically stated that Herbert left behind an extensive "outline" and other writings, but there is nothing to indicate that a) he named the Legends character Tlaloc and b) this naming has anything to do with the Tleilaxu. Your making the connection based on "similarity" between words is like suggesting the characters Lady Jessica (original series) and Janess (Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune) are related to the mythological Jocasta (mother of Oedipus). &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 18:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * (We have only their word that the books are based on materials by Frank Herbert, no actual proof of it. Ooh, look, pix of floppies! And a penny!) --SandChigger (talk) 10:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Word "Bene"
As a hebrew speaker, I'm not sure what to make of this sentence - "The use of 'Bene' before their name suggests that they are an order of some kind, like the Bene Gesserit.". I'm almost completely sure that Bene comes from the word "Bney" in hebrew. The term "Bene" is used as a transliteration of "Bney" in many places. Also, in the hebrew translation of the book, "Bene Gesserit" is translated to "Bnot Gashrit" (Bnot being the feminine form of "Bney") and "Bene Tleilax" is translated to "Bney Tleilax".

The word "Bney" literally mean "son of" or "descendant of". It's also used as "people of" - like in the biblic name "Bney Israel" - the people of Israel. The second meaning comes from the biblic thought that the people of one nation are descendants of one person. Both those meanings apply in the names of the BG and the BT. In the Bene Gesserit case, a member of the BG is always the daughter of another, and therefore they can all be considered descendants of the "founding mothers". The Bene Tleilax are the "people of planet Tleilax".

I know the Wikipedia's attitude towards "original research". However, this has much more basis than the original sentence I quoted, and since the translators of the book to hebrew used the word "bney", I'm not sure it's even considered original. But since I'm not sure whether it needs to be edited or not, I wrote this and left it to discussion.


 * If the Hebrew translators chose to translate it that way, it's interesting and worth noting; but it may not mean much. Most SF translators (and translators in general) never interact with the original author. Were the Hebrew translations even made when Herbert was alive? --Gwern (contribs) 16:56 18 September 2010 (GMT)


 * I'm not sure about that, but the hebrew translation is wrote in a relatively "old" hebrew, that seems to be dated around his lifetime. Anyway, I'm still pretty sure the word "Bney" is the source but I can't assume that's what the author meant. Just like we know the origins of words like "Bashar" and "Kanly" but we can't assume they have the same meanings within the dune universe. However in the case of Bene, the word "Bney" fits quite well in both uses. It might be worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.117.185.223 (talk) 15:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Of women and repugnance
Two questions regarding what is, and what is not, in the article. First, though it is mentioned in the article that axlotl tanks are actually female Tleilaxu, is it established that all Tleilaxu females are so employed? Second, in Heretics, Waff ruminates on how despised and repugnant the Tleilaxu have become in the eyes of their fellow humans, but also mentions that this was an image intentionally fostered by the Bene Tleilax as part of their diabolical master plan. Though the ultimate creepiness of the Tleilaxu is in no real doubt, perhaps some mention should be made that at least some of it is cultivated by the Bene Tleilax for their own purposes.172.191.89.147 (talk) 08:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It is strongly implied, I believe, by the complete omission of any reference to women as active agents, the general mystery to outsiders of where all the BT women are, and the complete absence from Other Memory of BT women. It is possible that only some BT women are tanks, but that would be a pretty strained revelation.
 * Possibly. How would you word that? --Gwern (contribs) 20:25 22 November 2010 (GMT)

How Many Planets
I have been recently asked and would like to know: How many planets exist under the dominion of the Tleilaxu? Is it just the one planet of Tleilax, or is it such an expansive network under their control that their territory cannot be measured? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.202.27 (talk) 14:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)