Talk:Bengalis/Archive 2

Collage and Zia
is actively removing photo of Ziaur Rahman from the collage. Can you mention your rational for doing so? It is clear that your position is opposed by several editors and you do NOT persist with a single choice for replacement of Zia. –  nafSadh did say 14:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes I added Taslima Nasrin in place of Ziaur Rahman, which others have removed. So what!I don't have any problem with Ziaur anymore(keep him). But others I can't agree. -- Cosmic Emperor (talk) 11:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

With relation to pictures -- Cosmic Emperor (talk) 09:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * @Cosmic Emperor, as I can see, you were removing pictures of significant people. -- 115ash  →(☏) 09:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Significant according to Bangladeshi view. I removed Uttam Kumar, Suchitra Sen and added Irene Khan and Youtube co founder from Bangladesh , you and some others were constantly adding people from Bangladesh. I am trying to be unbiased-- Cosmic Emperor (talk) 09:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * @Cosmic Emperor, the article still contains more Indians than Bangladeshis.-- 115ash →(☏) 09:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

We have to see greatness. Read the wikipages of those people you are removing. This is not 50:50 article. Only greater notability should be there. I didn't remove those Bangladeshis with high reputation. Cosmic Emperor (talk) 09:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * @Cosmic Emperor in fact I said that after my contributions, there are still more Indian people. Nonetheless, those Indians aren't well-known in the rest of the world.-- 115ash →(☏) 10:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * @Cosmic Emperor, as a new editor, your contributions appear to be of an experienced user. If you've forgotten your password, you could have asked to an admin. -- 115ash →(☏) 10:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes my old name is LoverBoyInGarden if you missed https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DangerousPanda&oldid=619549521#FORGOT_PASSWORD <font style="color:#ffffff;background:red;">Cosmic Emperor  (talk) 10:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Yet, there is something fishy on you. -- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 10:21, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Of course, sometimes I IP edited. I can provide that link also if you want. But unfortunately I can remember only one. You can check my user page history. I mentioned that too. That edit was reverted. I don't remember the other edits I did <font style="color:#ffffff;background:red;">Cosmic Emperor (talk) 10:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * 115ash, don't read too much into anonymous editing and different account as they were doppelgangers since he has revealed the identity of both. Discuss the matter in hand. Now my opinion on the matter —

You're replacing images of Indian with those of images of Bangladeshi's as evident from your edits. The images you are adding are appropriate for the article Bangladeshi people and duly no controversy has emerged there. You are replacing images of Rash Behari Bose with that of Shakib Al Hasan? Notability is not an issue here [this is not about article creation], but comparitive notability is. Shakib Al Hasan is a cricket player with a career spanning just 7-8 years, on the other hand Rash Behari Bose was the founder of Indian Independence League, later re-christened to INA so when compared to the article of Shakib Al Hasan it is of greater importance historically, even more so since it concerns with the independence of a nation. Also Rash Behari Bose was born in undivied Bengal, which makes his case stronger as there is ambiguity regarding whether "Bengali people" concerns People who talk in Bengali language or people who live in the indian state of Bengal. People who reside in Bangladesh are called Bangladeshi's, that I think does not requires explaining. So in whichever way the the term "Bengali" is used, Rash Behari Bose deserves more to be in the infobox than Shakib Al Hasan.

I would like to state that this is my opinion on the matter, and I would be happy to hear out others' as well. – Soham (talk) 14:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't want to edit this page for some days, but lets see the choice of User:115ash

115ash replaced Michael Madhusudan Dutt, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISCKON) , Mani Lal Bhaumik ,Sharadindu Bandyopadhyay creator of Detective Byomkesh Bakshi , Rash Behari Bose founder of INA

with Allama Azizul Haque, Pola Uddin, Baroness Uddin ,Shakib Al Hasan(not much ODI record) ,Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani ,  Shefali Chowdhury (did two three supporting roles in HarryPotter movies, there are dozens of guest roles in Blockbuster movies. Only  edit of 115ash that can be supported is replacing Fazle Hasan Abed  with Ziaur Rahman

Pranab Mukherjee), R. D. Burman,Gobar Guha , Ashoke Sen , Bikram Choudhury , Nirad C. Chaudhuri , Jhumpa Lahiri , Arundhati Roy , Khudiram Bose are also notable.

I removed Indians Uttam Kumar and Suchitra Sen from the list and added Bangladeshis Jawed Karim  and Irene Khan as i found them a better choice. '''So don't say [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bengali_people&diff=654313913&oldid=654313794 Really? All of them don't appear to be notable.] as you are questioning the notability of''' Michael Madhusudan Dutt, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISCKON) , Mani Lal Bhaumik ,Sharadindu Bandyopadhyay  , Rash Behari Bose <font style="color:#ffffff;background:red;">Cosmic Emperor  (talk) 15:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 1st April 2015
You're invited to vote here > Talk:Indian_people -- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 08:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Please slow down and read this
Please read WP:BRD and WP:3RR. I can see a very bad edit-warring here. A user has been indef blocked. I'll fully protect the article if it continues. Let me know if it is needed right now. Also seek help from project noticeboards, WP:DRN, WP:ANI. --Tito Dutta (talk) 12:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Indian editors are commenting here one by one but not voting. -- <font style="color:#ffffff;background:red;">Cosmic Emperor (talk) 18:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * this talk page is now being vamped by fairly new users. In particular, someone is trying to (1) either damage CosmicEmperor's credibility or (2) less possbivly CosmicEmperor has gone crazy. There is a possible need for SPI; but I am not sure who is the master. ~  nafSadh did say 04:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Vianello has blocked the account. Yes please report at SPI if you have evidence. --Tito Dutta (talk) 05:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * After this, I'm pretty sure, someone is actively trying to destroy 's credibility and CosmicEmperor is pretty sane.-- nafSadh did say 18:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no need to fret over socks and spas. Just add Template:Spa to any !vote made from an account that was exclusively created for this poll. Such votes will be discounted when the poll is closed. Amitrochates (talk) 12:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It's nice too see that Bangalis are having much more importance than others.--  AHLM13  talk 10:37, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

You User:AHLM13 are a Pakistani the way you say Bangali instead of BengaliUniversal tiger (talk) 11:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


 * @Universal tiger, Pakistanis respect a lot Bangalis. --  AHLM13  talk 14:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The tiger has been proven a sock. But, the emperor may still warrant that original insanity assumption of Nafsadh. Don't know about the two code-names, but they are strange. Aditya (talk • contribs) 15:29, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

SPI
As some of you had alerted about socks above and I have also felt so, I have gone ahead and lodged a complaint here. Feel free to add your comments. --Tito Dutta (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * ANI As I informed the participants here about the SPI, a ANI report has been made (against me) here: Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. The post somehow mentions this page's discussion too. Interested people may read it (Disclaimer: it is just a notification). Tito Dutta (talk) 15:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

{ Aditya (talk • contribs) 20:47, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Archive
We should setup setup a archive bot for this page; it is becoming long.  nafSadh did say 01:06, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes please. :) Aditya (talk • contribs) 17:08, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll be setting up ClueBot III.  nafSadh  did say 17:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I've already done it, and I see Lowercase sigmabot III is doing its job nicely - Ascetic  Rosé   04:55, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Removing collage completely in this page and adding in Bangladeshis and Bengali Hindus the only Solution

 * Bangladeshis might feel that they are larger in population but lower in pictures, and they will try to remove lots on great people Chaitanya mahaprabhu, Ramakrishna , Swami Vivekananda , Subhash Bose , Aurobindo Ghosh , Sharat Chandra Chatterjee , Pranab Mukherjee , Michael Madhushudhan , Khudiram , Sharadindu , Sukumar Roy. And they are trying to fill with Shefali Chaundhury . As if there must be some balancing act . Where both will get equal share of the property(collage ). Already we have two pages Bangladeshis and Bengali Hindus . Best solution would be to remove the picture collage here in this article and add in those pages according to Bangladeshi and Indian point of view. Problem solved 112.79.38.6 (talk) 06:39, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

In that case as i stated above, Bifurcation won't be necessary. Then Subhash Chandra Bose Vs Shefali Chaudhuri, Bipasha Vs Ramakrishna , Shakib Vs Swami Vivekananda , Pranab Mukherjee Vs Zia ul Haq debate will be over.So , lets call for peace. This page Bengali people don't require picture collage as the discussion will go nowhere. We must add our preference in Bangladeshis and Bengali Hindus page. Sorry guys, all of you will have to sacrifice your hard labour ,especially those involved in this edit war from the past few months. Lots of pages get deleted. This is nothing. Thanks for your contribution to the talk page, but this is the best solution available right now.112.79.38.6 (talk) 06:45, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

As there is no end to debate.

Dear All,

Its heartening to see the process of voting being carried out for the collage section but i guess it will not give a proper result at the end. Lets come to the main point without beating the bush.

The issue is the inclusion of names which one feels is of no match when viewed from the point of view of his or her own country. As an Indian it baffles me shakib is placed beside Sourav Ganguly. No matter how much one tries using various ratings and all, both are class apart. There have been instances when people removed Subhas Bose citing reasons so vague that it does not require a reply. He is the greatest Bengali ever produced, a person not only important to India but Bangladesh as well which got created after Independence of the former.The article has hit an all time in my opinion when i saw Polla uddin/Jawed karim etc.The Logic being just fill out a name just to balance the number for self-esteem preservation. The bitter truth is that Indians will always have an upper hand in this space due to their history in which they have prospered more than the other side. Please don't misquote me there is no relation to brains with this, it is just time/God/whatever favored us.

Now let us come to the solution. The greatest strengths of Wikipedia has been self-regulation but in this scenario it is impossible to implement as both Indians and Bangladeshis cant come to common grounds on selection as there are no hard and fast rules. Many have raised the issue that Bengali's are a homogeneous group consisting of both the sides but now after 70 years of Independence things have changed.

It is best to bifurcate the article in Indian Bengali's & Bangladeshi Bengali so that we can self regulate in a non biased way about the entire article.

Hence i am giving two solutions. i) Bifurcate the original article into two separate articles or ii) Keep this article intact and create two separate articles.

If Indian editors support me i can start creating the new article.

--''  <font color="#66FF33">devx <font color="#336600">101  <font face="papyrus" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  16:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Give me a good reason why it should be bifurcated? I don't see any valid arguments for your proposal. Shovon (talk) 19:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:NOTBATTLE. Wikipedia has a policy note for you User:devx101. Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * , what do you mean? Bangladeshis are covered in their own article; Indians are covered in their own. This article is about the ethnicity, which transcend states.  nafSadh  did say 06:12, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Sir, if you have an issue with the bias, how about a peaceful discussion to sort it? I believe nafSadh already started it here. You seem to be taking things way to far by wanting to bifurcate this article without even trying to address the issue first. Rihaz (talk) 09:42, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I strongly agree with the above opinion. What is more, there are numerous notable Bengalis neither of India nor of Bangladesh. GopalaRamir (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * , as you can see here nobody is supporting your changes. Please first reach a consensus here before making those edits. --<font style="font-size:18px" color="#848482" face="Palatino Linotype">Zayeem  <font color="#483C32">(talk) 2015 (UTC)
 * devx101 is the problem. We are having this WP:STRAW partly because he wanted to wage a crusade in favor of nationalistic supremacy, and it needed to be stopped. Aditya (talk • contribs) 14:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * C'mon Aditya, let's not get personal here. Rihaz (talk) 16:35, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL. I was not getting personal. I was reporting what I learned from the article edit history and this talk page. This is a serious SPA who advocates only one thing - bifurcation. If he keeps doing this, someone will have to report him for disruption. Aditya (talk • contribs) 16:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Haha... Well, we are around to prevent that from happening unnecessarily. Forget it. Rihaz (Talk to me • What I do) 17:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Hmm, I think that the buffoon 112.79.38.6 has given a better opinion. There isn't any ethnic group like Bengalis, which is divided in Bangladeshis, Bengali Muslims, Bengali Hindus, People from West Bengalis and others.-- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 13:35, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't call people buffons, that's bad regardless of whether you have support by the crowd. – Nahiyan8 (talk | contribs)
 * @Nahiyan8, the motive is that the IP is a sockpuppet of Undertrialryryr, who is vandalising other users' talk page such as here.-- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 10:08, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Non-free images in collage
Hate to throw sand in the gears given the yeoman work editors have put in to arrive at a consensus on the issue, but the collage contains the following copyrighted images (or images with unclear copyright status) and this almost surely fails WP:NFCCP criteria #1 and #8, since these images, or even the particular persons they depict, are not truly irreplaceable (and even the collage is arguably not a necessary element of the article). Hopefully a new collage can be made by simply replacing the image used by another free image of the same subject; if no such free image is available, the depicted person may need to be replaced. I am quite confident about my interpretation of the policy, but you may want to get a second opinion at Media copyright questions, especially if creating a new collage involves excessive work. Abecedare (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Bankim chandra chattopadhyay.jpg
 * File:J.C.Bose.JPG (not sure of the original file used)
 * File:Maulana Bhasani.jpg
 * File:FRKhan.jpg
 * File:Suchitra Sen as Paro in Bimpal Roy's, Devdas (1955).jpg
 * Reply:
 * File:J.C.Bose.JPG is used, all images are cropped to fit. This one is surely on PD.
 * File:Bankim chandra chattopadhyay.jpg -- it should be in PD as it was certainly taken before 1894
 * File:Maulana Bhasani.jpg -- Source unknown. It can be assumed that original uploader followed due diligence to find copyright holder, but I have reasonable doubt he did that. I did not find a replacement
 * File:FRKhan.jpg -- not replaceable thus can be used in his article, but not necessary here
 * File:Suchitra Sen as Paro in Bimpal Roy's, Devdas (1955).jpg -- neither irreplaceable nor necessary.
 * Thanks. Can you do farther investigation on Bankim, Bose and Bhasani? and if possible update those files.  nafSadh did say 06:43, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The Bose image seems in the clear
 * The Chattopadhyay image is crop from a painting; so may not predate 1894. The painting was used on the cover for a [ http://www.amazon.com/Bankim-Chandra-Chattopadhyay-Intellectual-Biography/dp/0195695038 OUP biography published in 2008]. If the image was made for the book, we are out of luck and cannot use it. However it is more likely that the publisher used a pre-existing work, in which case the inner copyright page or the back cover of the book should have the credits. Can someone with access to the book check?
 * The Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani image is a tough one. Will need to know its year of publication in order to establish its status. Or, we may be able to find alternatives (for example, can someone read the partial caption here, and tell if the year is determinable). I'll search tomorrow, though editors better acquainted with the subject are more likely to succeed. Abecedare (talk) 07:19, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Bankim C. Chattopadhyay was definitely NOT created for the book, as I've been seeing this image from long before that. Most likely it is a B&W photograph and tint came from age. But yes, we do not have a verification. I can't get the book now, we'll have to ask the Wiki Library.
 * The Bhasani photo was from 1965, and probably photogrphed or scanned from a Bengali newspaper. However, the author of that article seems to be CC friendly and be requested to release those photos. But, he was not the original owners of those photos.
 * I can investigate more, if needed, next week.  nafSadh did say 15:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You are right that the BKC image was not created for the OUP book since [ http://www.amazon.com/Essays-Letters-Bankim-Chandra-Chatterjee/dp/8129115697 this Rupa book] uses a larger portion of the original. I too suspect that the painting/photograph is likely to be contemporaneous with BKC, and thus likely free, but we need to establish that for sure.
 * Will search for free Bhasani images later today. Abecedare (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is a potential source for photo for FR Kahn, where we can ask the apparent copyright holders about use rights and ask them, if they can, to release it to CC.  nafSadh did say 17:41, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If, Khan's free image is unavailable, then he must be replaced with the next in line. That would be Vivekananda, I think. Aditya (talk • contribs) 21:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

That will be Zainul Abedin.  nafSadh did say 02:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Equally nice. Do we have any access to a free image of Abedin? Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:41, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Zainul_Abedin.jpg. We probably rather have to replace Bhasani with Sher e Bangla. I still think we can try finding a photo of FR Khan.  nafSadh did say 03:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 5 May 2015
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Bengali people → Bengalis – "Bengalis" is the WP:COMMONNAME for these people per Ngram. "Bengalis" is an unambiguous and plural demonym. Per WP:ETHNICGROUP. And it is more WP:CONCISE than "Bengali people". Per Koreans, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Germans, Swedes, Russians, Serbians, and many other titles of similar articles. "Bengalis" is the optimal title for this article. Khestwol (talk) 07:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom GregKaye 10:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * SUPPORT per above. Khestwol (talk) 11:12, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – more WP:CONCISE and natural. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Can't see any reason why it should not be Bengalis. Shorter, nicer. Aditya (talk • contribs) 05:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, in line with WP:ETHNICGROUP, with a redirect from present title?Coolabahapple (talk) 07:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, Speedy. Per norm, per nom, per sitewide standardization. - nafSadh did say 17:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

NO COLLAGE
Seen that it is unfeasible to take an agreeable decision, the purely settlement should be the removal of the entire collage, as per Indian people. This also demonstrates that Bengali people are very remarkable and the problem between editors will be comfortably solved. -- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 13:12, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Without Ziaur Rahman, the founder of BNP, can there be any unbiased exceptional collage of Bengali/Bangladeshi people? I have severe doubt.Hossain Akhtar Chowdhury (talk) 11:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Why exactly, apart from WP:ILIKEIT? Aditya (talk • contribs) 11:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * @Hossain Akhtar Chowdhury, you might need to wait for the next ratification. -- <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:gold">115ash <i style="color:red">→(☏)</i> 14:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)