Talk:Bengkulu

Several meanings of Bengkulu
AsianGeographer (talk) 15:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Bengkulu Province
 * Bengkulu City
 * Bengkulu City FC
 * Bengkulu language
 * Bengkulu people
 * Bengkulu University

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page not moved. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Bengkulu → Bengkulu Province – The current name is ambiguous, see Bengkulu (disambiguation). No prove that the primary topic for "Bengkulu" is the province was found. The ambiguity can be easily removed by using a precise, concise and natural name. The full name in Indonesian is Provinsi Bengkulu, so the English name could be Bengkulu Province. Except for the Philippines, all other provinces in the ASEAN area use that format, "Foo Province". This also gives way for the city article to be moved here, see Talk:Bengkulu (city). At the end, all these things are named after the city. AsianGeographer (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note - the current name attracts wrong incoming links like this to Bencoolen and this to Bengkulu - AsianGeographer (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Evidence for full name usage: 1) ASEAN provinces: Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam 2) ASEAN non-province countries: Burma (regions, states), Brunei (districts), Singapore (CDC and regions). 3) Asia provinces: Afghanistan, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Provinces of Iran, North Korea, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Japan. AsianGeographer (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Usual pattern, not just in Asia, but around the world for articles on Wikipedia.  It might be an idea to couple the move request at Bengkulu (city) with this particular move request, as they are related.  Skinsmoke (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So it should be Ontario province, Oregon state...? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No, for Oregon and Ontario the primary topic are the state / the province. Not so for Bengkulu. AsianGeographer (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You haven't proven that the city is the primary topic here, though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No need, I am only addressing the claim that the primary topic for Bengkulu is the province and the inconsistency when compared with articles from other countries in Asia. AsianGeographer (talk) 01:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're the one arguing the city should be moved here, which would need proof that it's the primary topic. Otherwise, if this page were moved the page Bengkulu would be a disambiguation page. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I am not. It is an option, to be considered separately. The policy is that if there is not primary topic, then no article gets the plain name. AsianGeographer (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per nom and agree that the city should be moved to Bengkulu. —  AjaxSmack   22:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per my comment above and WP:COMMONNAME. A renaming to Bengkulu (province) may be appropriate, with the city moved here... in daily speech it's most commonly called Bengkulu, after all. We don't depend on the formal, legal names of bodies (i.e. it's Indonesia and not Republic of Indonesia) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Bengkulu (province) would already be an improvement and would agree with a move to that target. WP:COMMONNAME does not help here, since the name is ambiguous. And I don't claim that the official name has to be used, but it gives a hint on choices when looking for a name that is not ambiguous. AsianGeographer (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - per Crisco - in particular Commonname SatuSuro 23:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the "common name" is ambiguous. And for centuries Bengkulu did not refer to a province, because that is a recent creation. The province is named after the city. AsianGeographer (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - use the common name. --Merbabu (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The "common" name is ambiguous. It can refer to the province or the city or other things. AsianGeographer (talk) 00:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it's ambiguous. There's 1000 of such instances on wikipedia. But in at least this case, it's not solved by creating new articles. A carefully worded first and/or seconded sentence can remove any ambiguity. Sorry, but with regard to this article and Bali, for example, I'm not sold on this overly fastidious (ie, anally retentive) need to make everything consistent and precise at the expense of common sense and readability. --Merbabu (talk) 00:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you mean with anally? And why would in the English Wikipedia a change towards consistency and preciseness be at the expense of readability? And how do you prove, your opinion to be common sense? AsianGeographer (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Anally retentive. I've stated my case, if you don't like it that's fine. I don't like yours. --Merbabu (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you are so unfriendly. It is nothing about like or not. It is about usability. AsianGeographer (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: Looking at the "Primary topic"-claim. It seems a lot of the people that turned up in the move request are very closely related to Indonesia and oppose a rational analysis. Readers of the Wikipedia are not necessarily related so close to Indonesia.
 * Let's have a rationale look what people in other language editions have done:
 * cs:Bengkulu disambiguation page
 * de:Bengkulu disambiguation page
 * id:Bengkulu province page
 * nl:Bengkulu disambiguation page
 * pl:Bengkulu city page
 * ro:Bengkulu disambiguation page
 * I see no prove that the primary topic for a general audience is the province. Also it is confusing that e.g. for Yogyakarta the plain name is the city, and the province gets a longer name, but here for Bengkulu it is the other way around. If people read articles from other countries in Asia (except the Philippines), they are very well served, with clear article titles. AsianGeographer (talk) 01:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Really? People closely related to Indonesia are opposed to rational analysis? Very, um, rational. --Merbabu (talk) 01:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I see no rational analysis from the three opposing users, which seem all to be related to the WikiProject Indonesia. But please, show the opposite. I made an analysis by looking on similar items from other countries and in other language editions. From you I see mostly attacks on me, e.g. "Anally retentive". AsianGeographer (talk) 02:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What you see as "rational analysis" I see as a fixation on consistency and precision at the expense of common sense, readability, and usability (ie, (anally) Retentive). Hardly a personal attack. --Merbabu (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyway, since when is "consistency" the primary objective of wikipedia above all others? --Merbabu (talk) 02:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You say having Bengkulu as the city article or the disambiguation page is against common sense. Where is the prove for that? All other countries in Asia (except the Philippines) do it fine, they avoid ambiguous cases by adding "Province" or similar to the title. So it is a fact, that this style is more common. AsianGeographer (talk) 02:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME the traffic stats seem to indicate that this page is the most viewed. Even if you subtract the number of people who look at the city's article or the people who look at the university's article this page still has a significant number, indicating that this is what they were looking for.
 * Bengkulu, Bengkulu language, Ethnic Malays, University of Bengkulu, Bengkulu Province, Bengkulu City, Bengkulu (city).
 * Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it is the plain name. No surprise it is the most viewed. If the city would be there, the most viewed might be the city. Especially if one considers wrong links like this to Bencoolen and this to Bengkulu. AsianGeographer (talk) 03:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You would think so. But thanks to Google and its algorithms, which take searchers directly to the most commonly sought articles based on their search terms, and because most people using Google to get to WP articles, that's not the case.  For example, many dab pages are at the plain name, but have much fewer views than the articles with the disambiguated titles. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose primarily because the proposed name is unacceptable. The title of an article should reflect the topic's most common name, which in this case is Bengkulu.  If this topic is not primary, then it should be moved to Bengkulu (province).  --Born2cycle (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Etymology
The province is named after the city, isn't it? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * At least there was the Bencoolen Presidency long before even the country of Indonesia was created. And many links that go to Bengkulu now, actually refer to the city or presidency. AsianGeographer (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure that people refer to historical Bencoolen Presidency as "Bengkulu"? If it is so, then Bengkulu should be a dab page, certainly. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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