Talk:Benin City/Archive 1

Surviving Buildings
"No trace remains of the structures admired by European travelers to "the Great Benin." " This isn't strictly correct; there remains a building called "Ancient House" about a twenty minute walk from the Oba's Palace, which survived the 1897 fire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.100.84 (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Human Sacrifice = Blood Libel
British imperial forces conquered Benin in order to secure the territory, resources, culture and labor for exploitation by the British empire. In general, tales of 'human sacrifice' are inherently ethnocentric and anti-Benin, and simply serve as imperial propaganda - in effect a 'blood libel' against the Benin people. They certainly cannot be taken at face value.

Questions that need answering before such racist statements are acceptable:
 * 1. What is the difference between 'human sacrifice' and 'lawful execution';
 * 2. What is the difference between 'human sacrifice' and voluntarily 'ascending unto heaven'?;
 * 3. What is the source and reliability of the account? Is it written by an informed Benin religious figure (who would know) or is it written by a British conquistador (who can be assumed to be completely ignorant - unless proven otherwise)?

How such so-called 'evidence' or 'sources' might be included. Unless claims of 'human sacrifice' can be verified by a practitioner, that is, somebody who can give an informed account of the religious justification of the practice, then they should be cited as mere claims, and the source of such claims made clear (if, for example, a conquistador). Please do not use Wikipedia as an outlet for your Tarzan fantasies. Ackees (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not the place to discuss the philosophy of "human sacrifice"; it is an established fact, through credible sources (which I shall provide in the article itself) that human sacrifice occurred in Benin. Your edits are anti-European propaganda that seek to minimize the unflattering history of Benin while emphasizing and fabricating anti-British declarations. Anyone that disagrees with your ideas you label "racist" and any source that contradicts your ideas you label as not having being "critically evaluated." This is POV bias at its worse. One look at your edit history and it is very clear why you were recently blocked from editing. One look at even the edit history of this article (that is, Benin City), and your libel against me and others (accusations of "neo-nazism" and the like) is evident. You are out of control. If you want to have a discussion about the philosophy of human sacrifice, then Wikipedia is not the place for that. Wikipedia is here to report what has already been established, not what you think should be established. Human sacrifice was practiced in Benin, and your editing of this article and others demonstrates an attempt to cover this fact up.ElliotJoyce (talk) 17:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC) sockpuppet of Vost
 * You added unattributed statements of fact to an encyclopedia based on a personal account from a 1898 source by a person who took part in a punitive expedition. Lovely. You need to get a decent source by a recognized and reliable historian because Wikipedia requires reliable sources.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:33, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How's this source: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4390897?seq=11. The way that the user Ackees has edited this article violates neutrality. I agree with you that the previous source regarding Benin's human sacrifices is not the best to uphold this fact, and that prior to Ackees edits, the article was also not exactly NPOV. Let me know what you think about the link I provided because I plan on rewording the article to reflect it. I am also looking for other sources to bolster the existence of human sacrifices in Benin.ElliotJoyce (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2012 (UTC) sockpuppet of Vost
 * Furthermore, I remain unconvinced as to the invalidity of that which you refer to as the "personal account" source, i.e., The Benin Massacre by Captain Alain Boisragon. First-hand accounts are often some of the best evidence and sources in establishing what occurred and how it occurred, therefore to dismiss this source with your "lovely" quip is perhaps a bit presumptuous. I agree that presenting this first-hand account as fact would likely violate NPOV, but presenting it as what one person who was present stated would perhaps not violate NPOV. To boot, the other source I provided from the online journal database JSTOR is a rather more accepted finding that human sacrifices were indeed practiced in Benin. ElliotJoyce (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC) sockpuppet of Vost

COLONIALIST PROPAGANDA
It is important not to let this page become too infested with colonial propaganda edits. This can happen when editors confuse history with their Tarzan fantasies. In such cases, convinced that white colonialism is some kind of 'civilizing mission', the execution of deserters and criminals becomes 'human sacrifice'; looting of cultural heritage becomes 'compensation' etc, etc. Ackees (talk) 11:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems your modis operandi is to throw out accusations of "colonialist propaganda" and "Tarzan fantasies" whenever you come across a piece of information you disagree with it. This is not how Wikipedia works. Human sacrifices in Benin have been documented and established- the sources in the article discussing this (particularly the one from the JSTOR) are reliable and verifiable. Try not to dish out personal attacks against other editors (such as calling them "neo-nazis" or "white supremacists"); it is evident, from a quick look at your edit history, that you have an anti-European, pro-black bias. This does not change the fact that sourced, reliable information can and will be included in this article. Also, you've recently returned from a 3-day block; it is not particularly wise to immediately start edit warring again on articles you were previously warring on. ElliotJoyce (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC) sockpuppet of Vost
 * "sourced, reliable information" is not an accurate description of what this article contains. The Columbia Encyclopedia, a tertiary source that barely touches on the topic is being used for example. The link is dead. This is the archived page. The source isn't good enough and needs to be replaced. There are plenty of high quality sources available written by scholars that describe what the British did in Benin City. Here is just one picked at random Antinomies of Art and Culture: Modernity, Postmodernity, Contemporaneity, (author details here) This is how a reliable source describes what the happened in the city.
 * "In February 1897, an elite British force of about twelve hundred men...beseiged Benin City. The British Punitive Expedition used Maxim machine guns to mow down most of the oba's 130,000 soldiers and secure control of the capital city. They set fire to the city and looted the palace of five hundred years' worth of bronze objects that constituted the royal archive of Benin's history, an irreplacable national treasure."
 * The article must reflect high quality sources.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 19:41, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to the source that I added, which references human sacrifice; that source is this one: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4390897?seq=11. It is neither dead nor unreliable. If you care to improve the other sources and better the article, please be my guest.ElliotJoyce (talk) 19:50, 6 May 2012 (UTC) sockpuppet of Vost
 * I'm not. I'm referring to your edit here, with the apparently misleading edit summary "Restored sourced material". What is the source that you refer to ? It's not the Columbia Encyclopedia.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 20:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

ring road
Rr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.44.83.39 (talk) 22:02, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

a more complex history needed
This page is basically the bare bones, but hardly conveys a more complex perspective on Benin and its pre-colonial-era rulers.Brosi 23:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC) I agree as this page gives a simplified and partly mythical explanation of the Bini Kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.58.221.102 (talk) 15:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Historical origins of the noun Benin
We have the nation state Benin and we have what was the Kingdom of Benin, apparently roughly corresponding to Biafra, in what is now south east Nigeria. The present day Republic of Benin lies directly west of the western border. This suggests that what is now the Republic of Benin and Benin City, the capital, and largest city of Edo State in present day southern Nigeria have a shared history, maybe through the former Kingdom of Dahomey? Perhaps the common root of the noun Benin could be discussed and explained. Enquire (talk) 21:54, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps Azpineapple (talk) 05:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)