Talk:Benito Mussolini/1

Arnaldo de Stupid
(search for this text in the page) someone vandalised it, obviously; but I have no idea what to change it back to. Arnaldo Mussolini, perhaps?

Collapse of Italian liberalism
How come the fascists wanted to avoid the collapse of Italian liberalism? Wouldn't this only be to their advantage? Please answer. - 1 March 2006

Mussolini and Jews
These 2 sentences made me choke on my miso:

"In fact, Mussolini has been said to have saved more Jews than even Oskar Schindler. Later, he would refuse to allow Jews to be deported to concentration camps until Germany occupied Italy during the war (a period depicted in the movie, The Garden of the Finzi-Continis)."

...and I would like to see the assertion footnoted if it's true. Who said it? Chaikney 22:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a well know historical fact that Jews weren't deported from Italy. Jews in Vichy France, which was policed by the Italians, weren't required to wear the Yellow star.

Quotes

 * "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." Could someone please cite a source for this quote? - japhyfoo@backword.net

I have spent several months trying to find this quote. It appears to be a very bad translation of a section on corporatism supposedly written by Mussolini for the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), but several English translations do not contain anything like this quote. Chip Berlet .

moved off main page left quote on that page User:Smith03

Berlet: I have tracked down the original 1935 English version of Mussolini's pamphlet, Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "The Doctrine of Fascism." (Firenze: Vallecchi Editore), which is listed as a translation of Mussolini's article in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932). The quote above does not appear. Nor does it appear in a longer booklet which contains "The Doctrine of Fascism" as a chapter:

Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions." (Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers).

I asked a scholar in Europe to find the quote in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and he said he could not find a sentence that translates into the quote above. Until someone who reads Italian, and checks the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and finds there is a sentence that can be accureatly translated into the above quote, I think the quote should not be listed. Chip Berlet .

-

I went and copied the original article in the Enciclopedia Italiana, in case anyone wants to pick a page it is supposed to be on. If someone wants to argue this quote exists, please cite the page and paragraph from this or another original document. In the meantime, here are some actual quotes from English tranlations.


 * The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (p. 14)


 * Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which diverent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State. (p.15)


 * Yet if anyone cares to read over the now crumbling minutes giving an account of the meetings at which the Italian Fasci di Combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers… (p. 23)


 * "It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!... I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism." (p. 24)


 * Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. (p. 32)


 * The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State. (p. 41).


 * Benito Mussolini, 1935, "The Doctrine of Fascism," Firenze: Vallecchi Editore.


 * The Labour Charter (Promulgated by the Grand Council ofr Fascism on April 21, 1927)—(published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale, April 3, 1927) [sic] (p. 133)


 * The Corporate State and its Organization (p. 133)


 * The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu [sic] [typo-should be: useful] instrument in the interest of the nation.

In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.


 * State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management. (pp. 135-136)


 * Benito Mussolini, 1935, "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions," Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers.

Hope this is useful. --Cberlet 04:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Badoglio's quote
AFAIK the quote: "La guerra continua a fianco dell'Alleato Germanico" ("War continues at the side of our German allies") in the article, is correctly reported. Just a minor error: the literal translation is "the german ally" instead of "our german allies". Imho the edit is not vandalism but just inaccuracy. HTH. Marius @ 07:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

fish also known as Mussolini
Hi, sometimes back, i started a stub for an endanger fish that i can't remember its name. I do remember it was also known by the name MUSSOLINI and it can live as long as 30yrs. Another fact that i remember is that its fresh cost about 100 US dollars. Google seem to pick nothing but Benito Mussolini. I started the stub without logging in, so searching against my username wouldn't help. Any one know how i can get to that article?

On Benito Juarez
The article describes him as a 'Mexican revolutionary'. This may lead to confusion, since the term 'Mexican revolutionary' is usually applied to those who fought in the Mexican Revolution of the early Twentieth Century, decades after Juarez's death. 'Mexican reformist' might work better, since he was a crucial player in the Mexican War of Reform, as described on the History of Mexico Wikipedia article. Just a suggestion. --toonbat@yahoo.com

Entering WWII
an edit claimingthat entering in WWII is widely considered Mussolini's greatest mistake has been considered vandalism. Imho this is an opinion with a strong historical background. Consider also the Franco's regime in Spain: it has survived after the war for a longtime. Walter
 * Oops, I think I didn't fill in the edit summary correctly. I don't consider it vandalism, but I do consider it an unnecessary opinion. On second thought though, perhaps it's actually not that out of place. If you think it makes for a better article, I don't think I should actually object to it being there -- I think I'm closer to neutral now. Sorry for unintentionally calling you a vandal. --Improv 12:34, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I think that if the Guest would perhaps find a different way of articulating his or her or her point, it could be included. -Joseph (Talk) 15:03, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

When Italy entered WWII (June 1940) almost everyone in the world believed the war was over: France defeated, Great Britain withdrawn from Dunquerque, US neutral, Japan winning, Soviet Union allied with Germany. Mussolini believed that some thousands casualties (his own words) were necessary to seat at the peace table. He didn't face big opposition as this was a general opinion. We must put ourselves in those times to understand. Spain didn't enter as it was exhausted by its civil war. No question that entering was an error, a tragic miscalculation. History is full of miscalculations, how else to call them? IMHO the paragraph removed by Improv is not POV, is mere historical thruth. Marius @ 19:27, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PS: italian proverb: del senno di poi son piene le fosse free translation: its easy to be wise after the event Changed the sentence that Mussolini had no choice but to declare war on the United States and the Soviet Union. I'm not sure this is historical justified. Franco managed to avoid this, and I don't see Hitler being able to do much to Mussolini if he decided to be a friendly neutral.

- Yes of course Hitler could do something to Italy hes just taken the majority of europe with comparitively no effort. Mussolini adopted a policy of there being a great war in europe from an early point in his dictatorship. His only objective was to be on the winning side. This is proved by his whole period as dictator in which he was constantly searching for prestige both for himself and Italy. Therefore if he saw that Hitler was more powerful of course hes going to jump on the bandwagon in order to get prestige for himself and Italy. Only later towards the end of WWII did Italy become a satellite of Germany. The decision to declare war was entirely Musolini's.

Author
how can i contact the author ? im doing this for a project in school
 * Assuming you want to cite this reference in a paper, you should look under Citing Wikipedia. Alternatively, if you actually need to contact everyone who ever edited this page, you can look at the history page but I don't know how useful that will be. Cvaneg 03:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Birth of Fascism
What is meant by "fears regarding the survival of capitalism"? Can we replace this with "economic fears"? Sebastian 05:38, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)

Corporatism quote
The Mussolini quote most cited on the Internet and attributed to Mussolini is not accurate and is probably not from Mussolini. I would like to keep at least a link mentioning this fact on this page. It is one of the things an encyclopedia does -- correct false data. I would prefer a short paragraph, but it has been deleted. --Cberlet 13:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Category:Roman Catholics"
I thought that he was an atheist who detested Christianity. Anglius

That was much earlier in his life. It really is hard to say if he ever did become a born again Christian after making peace with Christianity, after taking power he always claimed to be a devout Roman Catholic, but this may have just been a PR thing. After realizing that the Italian people would never tun their backs on their national faith and church, he was smart enough to silence his opposition.

Interestingly enough he was actually fascinated by Buddhism. Although by the brutal actions that he employed during most of his life, it is hard to be picture him as an actual Roman Catholic or Buddhist. -Chris Gilmore
 * I thank you for your intriguing information, Mr. Gilmore. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

"1929 Concordant"
shouldn't the Lateran Treaties be mentioned by name? there is allready an article dedicated to them it could link to. Mark
 * I agree with you, sir. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

assassination attempt
is there any place for, or where should it go? the april 7, 1926 attempt on his life?? --espo111 6 July 2005 02:26 (UTC)
 * It would probably belong in the section of "Fascist Dictatorship," Signore Esposito. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

questionable stuff
I removed this:


 * According to an investigation made by some journalists, among whom the American Peter Tomkins who was an OSS agent in Milano (Italy) during WW II, and aired on August 2004 by the Italian national TV network Rai Tre, Mussolini was killed on April 28, 1945 in the morning, by some British secret agents on their attempt to take possession of the Churchill-Mussolini exchange of letters. These documents might have been awkward to Churchill, given that some speculate the two statesmen were discussing an anti-Soviet separate peace, despite the agreements previously stipulated between the Allies. The investigation is backed also by the witness of Bruno Giovanni Lonati, on that time an Italian communist partisan member of the "Brigate Garibaldi" in Milan.


 * This version is in contrast with the report of "Colonnello Valerio" the partisan commander charged by the CLN (National Liberation Committee) with the task to execute the death sentence issued against Mussolini. According to Colonnello Valerio, Benito Mussolini and Claretta Petacci were executed on April 28, in the afternoon, in the village of Giulino di Mezzegra.

This looks like obscure conspiracy-theory-type stuff that does not belong. Benwing 03:07, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree on the removal: this version is backed by witness, the sources are authoritative (see the links). It's not even a new theory (a lot of books have been written abut this subject). The exact circumstances of Mussolini's death are not clear at all, after more than sixty years, and this is a fact acknowledged by almost all historians of any political bias. The matter is questionable, but before removing this paragraph, which has remained untouched since one year, imho some more discussion is needed. In the meantime I restore it. --Marius 18:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * PS: on it.wiki you can find here an article dealing in detail with this matter. Bye. --Marius 18:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * To be perfectly fair and honest, you should leave it out of the main article and devote a separate article to any conspiracy theory. The verdict of highly respected historians is absolutely not that he was assassinated by the British.  This is suppose to be a serious history article, not a place to vent politically motivated theories.

Totalitarianism
Most scholars would say that Italian fascism was a form of totalitarianism. Simply deleting it without discussion is not fair.--Cberlet 02:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed Mussolini's regime was avowedly totalitarian, and the first to popularize the use of the term. However, there has been too much research by social scientists and historians who disagree that the term totalitarian is appropriate for any regimes to ignore. Even for those who consider it appropriate, only for perhaps two leaders would there be universally agreement that they were-- Hitler and Stalin. The next closest would be Mussolini and Stalin... Since Ardent and Brezhenski brought the concept of "totalitarianism" back into usage in the 1950s and 1960s to refer to both fascist and communist regimes, some specialists on Mussolini's Italy have problematizing the concept, commenting on his "imperfect totalitarianism." There is more agreement on Nazi and Stalinist totalitarianism, but not complete. Kershaw and Lewin, for example, are among those who have long criticized the totalitarian model as a tool for sound historical comparison of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. 172 | Talk 05:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That sounds, to be blunt, like bafflegab. You assert the term's relevance to the topic, then say there is no agreement. To me, that sounds like a prescription to surround the term with some NPOV context, rather than simply removing it. --Dhartung | Talk 00:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It is all in the definition of the term "Totalitarian", modern scholars consider it a system of complete enforced control & coercive method of governance upon its populace, a "total control" meaning of 'totalitarian'. Fascist Italy considered the word however to mean something more ideal & utopian if never actually implemented by them or otherwise; a term that correlates highly to Fascist Italy's 'corporative state' or the incorporation of all interests into the state "total". By which they mean 'all interests & walks of life' merging into and officialized/recognized publicly by the state. It can be proven the original "Fascists" meant no such 'coercive' connotations in the word as quoted in the 1932 'doctrine of Fascism' - "...(The state) is not simply a mechanism which limits the sphere of the supposed liberties of the individual...", & "...Neither has the Fascist conception of authority anything in common with that of a police ridden State..." rather it clearly connotes "...Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers...", in this way Fascist "Totalitarianism" was seen from the Italian perspective to be a kind of statist syndicalism, where the private individual interests, belonging to the individual alone, would be given wider leverage by the government & state, in a bureaucratic form, this was Fascism's "Corporative Syndicalism". I also think here, that 'Totalitarianism' when used for the Fascism that popularized it as a term, should be used in their utopian sense and not in a pejorative sense by revisionist scholars of a later era which go on to claim their definition of "totalitarianism" doesn't fit the Italian Fascist state because it wasn't "coercive" enough. Nagelfar 10:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Unternehmen Eiche / Rescue by Otto Skorzeny
This page [ Unternehmen Eiche ] has been created as an orphan - no idea if it is valid or not. Would someone with knowledge like to check it out and either link it in or nominate for deletion. --Doc Glasgow 21:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

It should be noted that Mussolini was rescued by a commando team led by Otto Skorzeny. The article gives the impression that the General that is mentioned was instrumental in his rescue.

--Luis Fernandes, Oct.31, 2005
 * Sorzeny did not lead the rescue team ! The operation was planned by General Kurt Student and his staff. His Paratroopers/elite infantry did execute this operation. Skorzeny did only take only in this operation as observer.--Denniss 17:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Denniss: re the rescue of Benito Mussolini, I have no personal POV or knowledge on the subject, just hoping to reconcile contradictions between the entries for Mussolini, Otto Skorzeny, and Kurt Student. External sources widely agree that Hitler hand-picked Skorzeny to lead the rescue, with Student in a leading role only in certain operations in the rescue. Can you point to sources supporting Student's primary role in the rescue overall? Best, Xian 01:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * At least one source but in german, more maybe tomorrow --Denniss 01:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Dennis, your point that Skorzeny did not lead the commando does not make any sense (sorry to say). Skorzeny has been handpicked by A. Hitler himself to "mount, lead & execute this operation". Gran Sasso (Mussolini's jail) was/is at the top of a mountain, only accessible by funicular. Skorzeny & his SS-Kommando landed in two/three gliders at the top of the mountain. Meanwhile Student's paratroopers (non-SS) were airdropped at the base of the mountain in order to gain control of the funicular station and prevent any Italian reinforcements to reach the top. After Mussolini had been released, an ace from the luftwaffe managed to land a very small plane at the top of the mountain. When released by ==Skorzeny himself==, Mussolini allegedly said "I knew my friend hitler would not let me down".Then, Mussolini, the pilot AND Skorzeny, boarded the little plane (at first, the pilot did not want to let Skorzeny board the plane because it was a two seaters, and he was afraid they would be too heavy to take off). The rest of the SS-Kommando then used the funicular to get down (which was no problem since Student's paratroopers were holding the station below). My source is a book "Skorzeny, Hitler's Commando" written by Glenn B. Infield (amazon link . Actually I read it in French (amazon link ). Please consider, g999b

Hey, g999b again, I found another source, an e-source I should say, pls. check | this website who clearly states that Skorzeny led the raid against Mussolini. Denniss, I was quite unhappy to see that you have modified every pages about Otto Skorzeny, including the page on Otto Skorzeny himself, in order to qualify him as an "observer" in the raid to rescue Mussolini. I think this is not very fair since a debate (ie. you vs. rest of the world) is still taking place.

Numerous sources agree that Skorzeny was key in executing the rescue, which was planned by Student. In any case, I think the details of the rescue (and any related controversy) belong in a seperate article, rather than spread across those of all the participants. I've moved most of those details from Mussolini's and Skorzeny's articles to Unternehmen Eiche. I suggest that any further discussion happen at Talk:Unternehmen_Eiche. Humbly, Xian 00:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Plagarism?
Is this just a modified version of this article: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-leaders/ww2/mussolini.htm Or is it the other way around? - victorvp (talk)

I Have A Question?
I've heard several times that Benito Mussolini Was Beaten and then shot...but I can't find that information anywhere.Is this true?

You can email me at hollisteraber13@yahoo.com


 * Yes, it is true. You can find here a report from US cameramen sent to Italy to film the conquest. Sorry, the talk is in italian, but around 20 minutes from start you could see the people in Piazzale Loreto hanging the body of Mussolini and Petacci and beating them up. Moreover bodies were hang to the feet and later horribly mutilated. Look at 57 min the unique movie of a bombing raid on Rome and a snipe hunt, too. This documents were collected and revealed by RAI italian TV, and are one of the best documents of WW2 ever.82.61.131.41 00:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

+semiprotect
This page is a very frequent vandalism target by anons, and takes a lot of time to monitor. I'm semi-protecting the page. --Improv 13:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The Cardinal's Mistress
I have just finished reading Mussolini's only novel, The Cardinal's Mistress. I was wondering if someone could elaborate on how much allusion to the dictator's life is really contained in the book. Something in particular I am wondering about are the character names chosen by Mussolini. They seem to contain similarities to names in his real life (i.e. Claudia Particella/Clara Petacci, Rachele the maidservant/Rachele the wife of Mussolini, Emanuel Madruzzo/Emmanuel the King of Italy). Or is it just my overactive imagination?

-Allison Petrucci (Clashrocker@hotmail.com)


 * Fascinating.. Your guess is as good as mine. Most scholars just seem to take it as an attempt at very bad fiction writing. No important insights to be mined in there about Benny, IMO.--Lacatosias 14:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice theory, but not correct. Mussolini wrote the novel while staying in my hometown, Trento, in 1909 (not, as the page says, 1908 - will have to change that section as it's wildly off the mark) taking inspiration from the last prince-bishop in the Madruzzo line. Carlo Emanuele Madruzzo was the last of the line, and asked repeatedly to be able to leave the robe and give a heir to his family with his beloved Claudia. This is history - more I can't say, I have yet to read the book itself... --Tridentinus 14:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

(Neo-)Fascist POV
I have found some questionable passages:
 * The next day the bodies of Il Duce and his mistress were hung, upside down, in Piazzale Loreto (Milan) along with those of other fascists, to be abused by the crowds.

Hanging the bodies was to show everybody they were dead, and to discourage the Fascists to fight on. Recently, similar things were done with Uday and Qusay Hussein.
 * Mussolini's granddaughter Alessandra [...] is currently a [...] Member of the European Parliament for the right party Alternativa Sociale.

It's rather a neo-fascist party, not just right-wing. And it's an alliance of four parties, not one party.
 * After his death, an Italian proverb was created that refers to him: "Those who are always right, always end up in Loreto Square".

This is plain fascist propaganda. --Orzetto 01:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. I will change this nonsense.--Lacatosias 14:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I myself am going to revert it back to "being abused". Because not only was the intent for Mussolini to be identified and his myth demistyified but also to show contempt for him as he supposedely was alleged by others.
 * Ronsin1976 20:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)I added that the Corpse of Benito was subject to great abuse and this is a fact that must be asserted. Like I just did.

Ronsin1976 20:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Being that the bodies were meant to be abused by the crowds, and the fact that such a proverb existed which certainly isn't pro-Fascist, I don't see how this is at all "Fascist propaganda" rather than fact, if somewhat irrelevant. Nagelfar 10:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Would any respondents be interested in photographs taken of Mussolini and his girlfriend in Italy depicting their hanging and subsequent placement in an unmarked grave that were taken at the time these events occurred? Please respond here. 22:30 6 February 2006.


 * I don't think it would improve the article. --Improv 05:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no need for these pictures. There's a low-res picture on the article already, and in my opinion we don't need anymore. This is Wikipedia, not The Turn of the Screw.[[Image:Weather rain.png]] Soothing R  18:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the line on "Colonnello Valerio"
Like marked on it.wiki, I want to signal that it has been nearly sure assessed that was'nt the so-called "Colonnello Valerio" (Walter Audisio) to shot Mussolini. Also discarding the famous hypothesis of the "correspondence" Mussolini-Churchill, seems nearly for sure that was another person to execute Mussolini, for less an other partisan. The declarations of "Colonnello Valerio" in fact have been often conflicting.-Jean76 (excuse me but i'm still not registred on the english wiki)

Removed
I've removed these sentences:

''According to Audisio, the execution of Petacci was incidental and unplanned. Despite having no orders to kill her "she simply wouldn't let go of Il Duce".''

They have been sitting there for a sufficiently long time (months? years?) so that the indivdual who introduced them should have been able to cite some source for them by now. I also added to the assertion that Audisio executed Mussolini, since this is controversial.--Lacatosias 09:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Added
I'm going to keep adding on the well known fact that Il Duce's corpse was defiled and outraged. This is an important component to the "demystifying" of his legend by Partisians. Ronsin1976 17:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine with me. If this weren't Wikipedia and we were dealing with personal opinions, I would have added the adverb "appropriately" defiled of course. But that's neither here not there. (--Lacatosias 18:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A few posts up here I gave a link to a USA combat film found in te RAI national television archives. It says that the corpse was defiled. It shows it. It shows the bodies. It shows the riots. I am not a neofascist or so (well, i am with left, to say it all), but I am italian and I would like to defend the truth of history. The days of Piazzale Loreto were chaotic, and people often acted in a fool way. This is not propaganda. This is how things went and it our duty to report it here, even if not nice. --Jollyroger 12:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * the post: :
 * a report from US cameramen sent to Italy to film the conquest. Sorry, the talk is in italian, but around 20 minutes from start you could see the people in Piazzale Loreto hanging the body of Mussolini and Petacci and beating them up. Moreover bodies were hang to the feet and later horribly mutilated. Look at 57 min the unique movie of a bombing raid on Rome and a snipe hunt, too. This documents were collected and revealed by RAI italian TV, and are one of the best documents of WW2 ever.


 * I still say: He earned it. I've added some delightful material on the warm and freindly treatment that Il DUCE and his thugs showed to the African neighbors. It makes me ashamed to have been born of Italian-descent.--Lacatosias 15:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Edit War
We appear to be in the middle of an edit war, and I'd like to move the discussion from terse remarks in edit summaries to the talk page. The disputed passage of the moment is

His entry into World War II on the side of Nazi Germany made Italy a target for Allied attacks and ultimately led to his downfall and death.

Anywho, while cause and effect is an aspect of history that can lead to a great deal of dispute, it is still a major aspect (perhaps the major aspect) of the study of history, and I think we have here a fairly clear-cut example of cause-and-effect. We have a fact, that fact is relevant to the subject at hand, I see no reason to remove it. -MBlume 4/2/2006


 * Well, let's analyse one-by-one the factual claims made in the statement:


 * His entry into WWII......true, all evidence indicates that Mussolini did indeed enter into World War II.


 * He entered on the side of the Nazis.....true.


 * This siding with Nazi Germany against the Allies obviously led to a declaration of war against Italy by the Allies. Hence, Italy's entrance on the side of the Nazis, as opposed to staying nuetral or siding with the ALIIES, led to the Allies attack on Italy as a part of the War to liberate Europe from Nazi domination--true. ERRRR...Why else would they have targeted Italy?


 * These attacks ultimately led to the downfall of Mussolini............well, it's probable that his own ineptness, cruelty and maladministration played a part is this. But certainly the Allied attacks played there role as well. --Lacatosias 10:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Similar to Groliers
A school-kid emailed Wikipedia that this article has many segments very, very similar to Groliers. True? http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_mussolini.html --  Zanimum 19:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is the case, how much do we have to rewrite? MBlume 23:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not the case. I added a great deal to this artcile which is borrowed from the Italian Wiki article on fascism. NONE of that material (Ethipeoan genocide, anti-socialism is even mentioned in that Groliers artcile. It's nonsense. --Lacatosias 09:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Image
we just had a rather large, rather heroic sort of portrait added to the page, and then moved to the top where it sat above the article. I've moved it down for now, but I'd like a discussion about whether we want to keep the new image at all, especially since the article already contains a link to Mussolini in Pictures. MBlume 23:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's gone. That was ridiciclous. If it reappars I promise that I will us this example to discreidt Wikipedia on every blog, forum, the Italian wiki. I sum, I will copy it and pasete in everywhere I can possibly do si all across the Internet, I will send letters to the editors of newspapaers and maginzes with the photo to ilustrtae the LOFTY standards of Wikipedia

criteria for inlcusion of photos and info. Believe me, I can't do all that much, but such nonsense as that will speak or itself and that would HURT this project VERY MUCH INDEED!!. KEEP IT OFF!!--Lacatosias 09:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Atheist
Mussolini wasn't an atheist was he? Someone's added that category

I honestly do not know if he was an atheist, an agnostic or a weak sort of Catholic. But I think this has more to do with the debate over at Adolf Hitler about Hitler's alleged Catholicism. The stupid game of stiffing people in categories to make a religious or political point has spread over to this page now. Perosonally, I don't much care one way or the other and I doubt anyone really knows. But since everyone takes this stuff so seriosly, where's the citation for this? --Lacatosias 17:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually he is now contradictorily classified as a Roman Catholic AND and atheist. I guess that satisfies everyone, right?? Yeah right...--Lacatosias 17:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Mussolini & USA
Those are helpful articles. Please consider adding information about the following:

1. The Mussolini-Hitler salute originated from the USA’s early Pledge of Allegiance and a (rexcurry.net/USA-pledge-of-allegiance-rexcurrydotnet.jpg) shocking photograph is here. The original Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag and a (rexcurry.net/USA-pledge-of-allegiance2-rexcurrydotnet.jpg) photograph is here. In actual use, the (rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html) second part) of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm down by disinterested children perfunctorily performing the forced ritual chanting by extending the initial military salute, as shown by Professor Rex Curry. Due to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge, the (rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-german-connections.html) military salute led to the hard, stylized salute of Mussolini-Hitler. It was an extended military salute via the USA’s Pledge.

2. At the time that Mussolini-Hitler found their salute they were both (rexcurry.net/roman-salute-benito-mussolini.html) self-proclaimed socialists and leaders in their movements. It was not an ancient Roman salute, and the "ancient Roman salute" (rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html) is a myth]. The myth grew from the use of the USA’s pledge salute in (rexcurry.net/roman-salute-benito-mussolini.html) early movies showing fictional Roman scenes.

3. The swastika, although it was an ancient symbol, was used sometimes by the National Socialist German Workers Party to represent overlapping “S” letters for their “socialism,” as shown in (rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html) Swastika Secrets]by Dr. Rex Curry. The same symbolism is shown in Hitler’s own bizarre signature, which Hitler alter to use the same stylized "S" letter for "socialist," and similar alphabetic symbolism still shows on (rexcurry.net/bookchapter4a1a2a.html) Volkswagens.

4. The Mussolini-Hitler salute in the USA pre-dated Mussolini-Hitler by decades and was created by Francis Bellamy (author of the "Pledge of Allegiance"). Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy (author of the novel "Looking Backward") and Charles Bellamy (author of "A Moment of Madness") and Frederick Bellamy (who introduced Edward to socialistic "Fourierism") were socialists. Edward, Charles and Frederick were brothers, and Francis was their cousin. Francis and Edward were both self-proclaimed National Socialists and they supported the "Nationalism" movement in the USA, the "Nationalist" magazine, and the "Nationalist Educational Association." They wanted all of society to ape the military and they touted "military socialism" and the "industrial army." Edward’s book was an international bestseller, translated into every major language (including Italian & German) and he inspired the "Nationalist Party" (in the USA) and their dogma influenced socialists worldwide (including Italy & Germany) via “Nationalist Clubs.”


 * The Nazi salute was far older, originating with Roman soldiers and Hitler got it through Mussolini, not the USA. Also, I see your links as an attempt at search engine optimization so I delinked the multiple links to what (I assume) is your own site. Apart from that misinformation, I don't see much new or enlightening in your post. --Golbez 07:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)--Lacatosias 08:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, points 1 and 2 are wrong, point 3 is not related with fascism (fascism used the roman "fascio", the svastika was nazist and not linked to the "s" letter). --Jollyroger 22:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Outrage
A small comment, but the phrase regarding Mussolini's death that "American troops were outraged" is unnecessary and suggests a bias in the language. Whilst it may be true, without a citation it hinders rather than helps the article. Either a citation should be added or the phrase should be ejected. Shepplestone 26 April 2006