Talk:Benjamin Harrison/Archive 1

father
What did Benjamin Harrison's father do for a living? RickK 16:43, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * John Scott Harrison (1804-1878) was a farmer and a congressman (1853-57). - Nunh-huh 21:09, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I just edited the article which had his mother's name as "Elizabeth Irwin". According to "The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents" (William A. Degregorio) her name was "Elizabeth Ramsey". (Might this be a maiden vs. married name issue?) - Nunh-huh 21:15, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
 * It is... so now name given as "Elizabeth Ramsey Irwin". - Nunh-huh

I removed the mention of antibiotics, as he was ill and died in 1901, which was significantly before Flemming discovered penicillin in 1928. If anyone can find that antibiotics were in use in 1901, please undo my edit.

The First Lady and wife of Benjamin Harrison Harrison was originally Caroline Lavinia Scott before marriage to Benjamin Harrison. Reason of edit: full maiden name appears in most presidential bios. --65.73.0.137

Benjamin Harrison or Benjamin Harrison VI??
If his grandfather was William Henry Harrison, then why does he get a suffix like this?? According to what makes sense to me, this means that his grandfather would have to be Benjamin Harrison IV, but that is certainly wrong. 66.245.29.239 13:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * This is the way genealogists often name people -- primarily so that records don't get mixed up with many family members having the same name in one lineage. This means that he has 5 direct ancestors named "Benjamin Harrison" (see his great-grandfather Benjamin Harrison V), but he shouldn't be listed here as VI, since that is not standard usage. BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Benjamin Harrison V had a son named Benjamin Harrison VI. The president never had any extra title and if the other ones didn't, they were given nicknames. Jjmillerhistorian 06:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Civil service reform
I found a popular cartoon about Congress fighting over Civil Service Reform and Harrison quoted as saying "What can I do when both parties insist on kicking?" There is no mention of Civil Service Reform in this article and there is no article on Wikipedia titled Civil Service Reform. Perhaps the cartoon is popular and the topic is too small to note. I was just wondering what the reform issue was and what Harrison had to do with it. Kainaw 23:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Pictures
Pictures serve to highlight the subject at hand. If several pictures are included in an article, preferably they should be different pictures of the subject in different contexts. Why are there three pictures of Harrison which are nearly identical? It serves no purpose -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 05:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

reporter of the decisions
Would that be the same as a court reporter?--KrossTalk 09:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Parts of this seemed to be copied word-for-word from the White House Bio of Harrison. Not sure if that is OK. For example from http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bh23.html, this quote shows up verbatim near the end of this wikipedia version.

"Long before the end of the Harrison Administration, the Treasury surplus had evaporated, and prosperity seemed about to disappear as well. "


 * It's not a copyright problem, works of the Federal government are not copyrighted, so we don't need to remove it. However plagiarism, while legal, is also beneath our standards. The URL needs to be an a citition or in a "sources" list. studerby 14:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Erroneous Trivia
I have removed the erroneous claim formerly included in "Trivia" that B. Harrison "might have" been the first President whose voice was recorded, because the article here for Harrison's predecessor (and successor), Grover Cleveland, contains a media link to a recording of that President that was made a couple years earlier, refuting the previous claim. Michaeltmccorkle 00:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the Vincent Voice Library, that recording was done in 1889. The media link you're referring to for Grover Cleveland was done in 1892, so how is the removed content erroneous? -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 01:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I corrected the false info stating that the recording was done after his presidency and restored the line that he was the first president whose voice was recorded. The recording even starts "As president of the United States..." and mentions the first Pan American conference which was held in 1889. -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 21:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Benjamin Harrison was first! Jjmillerhistorian 12:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

President Harrison (ship)
I have a passenger list indicating that a ship named the President Harrison was in operation during the year 1940. It arrived in New York City from Kobe and Suez. It does not appear to be the ship currently indicated within the article, as the date precedes the Liberty ship by two years. Might anyone have any additional information on this? I will post this comment on the discussion page for the SS Benjamin Harrison, as well. --Thisisbossi 23:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC) The ship you mention sailed for the American President Lines and was captured by the Japanese in 1941. There were three ships named President Harrison. See this link http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/americanpresident.htm Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 12:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Benjamine Harrison
Benjamine Harrison is my great-great grandfather208.3.137.104 13:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

trivia section
I have integrated most of the trivia section into the article except this one:

'''Harrison gained several nicknames during his presidency such as "Kid Gloves", "The Human Iceberg" and "Little Ben". These mocking titles given by his political rivals. "Little Ben" was also a name so-called by his Civil War regiment, the 70th Indiana Volunteers.'''

I can't find sources for this so I am moving here until I can. (I am trying to get the article ready for a GA review. Charles Edward 14:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to see you integrate the trivia fact that he was the last president with a beard. 24.208.168.249 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Loop
He was succeeded by the same person that preceded him. Clicking the preceded by link takes you to the 24th, when I want the 22nd. I think we should at least have a small page for preceded, with a link to take you to the main article, which is under the 24th. 88.104.2.247 (talk) 15:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Harrisons Fraternity
Is actually Delta Chi not as reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.6.152 (talk • contribs)


 * I took it out. It's not terribly relevant to his biography, anyway.  Coemgenus 19:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Image restoration
I mentioned to Durova that she might be interested in restoring an image or two for this article since it is well on its way to becoming an FA. She has already done this cartoon - Image:Benjamin Harrison Puck2.jpg. Awadewit (talk) 00:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi all, Awadewit showed me the shortage of visual media for this FAC. Good news and bad news.  Bad news first: none of the conventional head and shoulders portraits that we could find of this president had the technical specs for featured picture consideration.  Good news is that three lithographs at the Library of Congress could do it.  Putting forth the candidates.  Whichever consensus prefers I'll restore:

Best regards, Durova Charge! 00:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Republican platform and presidential nominees, 1888
 * 2) Equestrian portrait in Civil War uniform
 * 3) Republican national convention, 1888


 * I prefer the number two, but it pictures him as a military type.. the others are much more political. 62.195.181.15 (talk) 17:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Bot-created subpage
A temporary subpage at User:Polbot/fjc/Benjamin Harrison was automatically created by a perl script, based on this article at the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. The subpage should either be merged into this article, or moved and disambiguated. Polbot (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

removing information
Somebody removed alot of information. I assumed this was an accident. I tried to undo it. I don't know if I was successful.--Retracted (talk) 21:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Scottish ancestery claim
Harrison has been put in the scot-irish american category. However there is no mention of this in the article, and the Harrison family is of English decent according the the William Henry Harrison article. Is there evidence or sources of a scottish or irish hertiage in Harrison? &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 14:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Alt text needed
For WP:ACCESSIBILITY by visually impaired readers, this article needs alt text as per WP:ALT. Can someone please take a crack at this before this article hits the main page? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 02:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"Brigadier General" Harrison picture actually of Colonel Harrison
Sorry, but the caption that lists Harrison as a Union army Brigadier General is incorrect. That's an eagle he's wearing on his uniform, not a star, therefore he was a Colonel at that point in his military career. 125.174.225.3 (talk) 04:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you're right and I changed the caption. Coemgenus 14:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Preceded president link error
Cleveland is being linked as the predecessor to Harrison and vise versa. Please adjust this error so Ben Harrison's presidential predesessor is correctly linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.252.69 (talk • contribs)


 * I don't see an error. Cleveland was president, then Harrison was President, then Cleveland was president again. So Harrison both proceeded and suceeded Cleveland, and Cleveland both preceded and Suceeded Harrison. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 14:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly right. See List of Presidents of the United States.  Coemgenus 14:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Civil Rights
The civil rights section was taken out of this page. There seem to be certain editors who do not want civil rights to be talked about on Wikipedia. I guess the controlling editors at Wikipedia are biased when it comes to civil rights.{66.81.242.253 (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * Its not that at all. This is a featured article, which means that content on it has continue to be of a high quality. You are welcome to add civil right information, but be sure you are properly referencing it. Check out WP:Citations for some pointers. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 19:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I did use a good source and it was deleted anyway.
 * What makes answers.com a reliable source? Coemgenus 19:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The reverse could be asked, what makes it unreliable? Answers.com does give a general source link.  I know that book sources are the best.

{Cmguy777 (talk) 03:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}

I appreciate all the help I have been given. Here is a proposed text for Civil Rights on Harrison. Please make comments.


 * One historian, Kirt H. Wilson, calls the period between 1875 and 1901, the ‘politics of place”, where African American segregation, at first a matter of custom, became a reality of law throughout the nation. From Hayes to McKinley there was a period of virtually silent rhetoric from each President about speaking for the citizen rights of African Americans.  In 1883 the U.S. Supreme Court had declared the Civil Rights Act of 1875 unconstitutional.  This act had allowed African Americans the equal rights to inns, public transportation, and entertainment facilities.  The court had ruled that “individual invasion of individual rights was not the subject matter of the [Fourteenth Amendment]”, and “does not invest Congress with the power to legislate upon subjects which are in the domain of the State legislature”.  In other words, states not the federal government, had the sole authority to determine the civil rights of their citizens.


 * In December 1889, separate bills were introduced to Congress that protected the voting rights of African Americans. Henry Cabot Lodge drafted one, whom his opponents called the “Force Bill”.  Harrison privately was in favor of the bill and talked with Senators to get the bill passed.    The debate over the bill was very argumentative on both sides and such strong language had not been heard since the Civil Rights Act of 1875.    The bill did manage to pass the House on July 2, 1890 by a vote of 155 to 149.  However, the bill was defeated in the Senate with a Democratic filibuster.


 * Harrison continued to advocate for African American civil rights in subsequent State of the Union addresses to Congress. In 1892, Harrison went before Congress and declared, “…The frequent lynching of colored people is without the excuse…that the accused have an undo influence over courts and juries.” However, Harrison claimed there was nothing he could do constitutionally to relieve the practice of lynching.  Harrison did question the authority of the states in terms of establishing civil rights.   He argued that if states have the authority over civil rights, then “ we have a right to ask whether they are at work upon it.”


 * I could see a place for the third paragraph, but the first two don;t involve Harrison at all, except that Harrison was in favor of a bill that didn't pass. These articles are written in summary style.  We can't include every fact or quotation, even if it seems relevant to us.  How about this:


 * "Harrison endorsed the proposed Federal Elections Bill written by Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, but the bill was defeated in the Senate. Following the failure to pass the bill, Harrison continued to speak in favor of African American civil rights in addresses to Congress. In 1892, Harrison went before Congress and declared, "…The frequent lynching of colored people is without the excuse...that the accused have an undo influence over courts and juries." However, Harrison believed the Constitution did not permit him to end the practice of lynching.  Harrison did question the authority of the states in terms of establishing civil rights, arguing that if states have the authority over civil rights, then "we have a right to ask whether they are at work upon it.""


 * I think that sums it up nicely. Coemgenus 22:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. It does.  I am in favor of putting in the article.  It shows that there was an actual bill in Congress and that Harrison was for the bill.  Harrison also spoke on civil rights as President.  A good summary! Does it matter who puts the edit in the article?{Cmguy777 (talk) 23:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}


 * Let's let it sit here for another few hours, to see if anyone has any other ideas, then put it in. Coemgenus 00:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The section is in the article. I added that the bill was co-written by Senator George Frisbie Hoar and that it would be the last civil rights legislation attempted by Congress until the 1920's. (Cmguy777 (talk) 05:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC))


 * Nice work. If I have time, I'll try to get those references to work.  If you want to take a crack at it yourself, look at Template:cite book.  --Coemgenus 12:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The template style will make the references better, I agree. I can try and change the references to match the template.{Cmguy777 (talk) 01:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}

Writings and sayings
Why was the writings and sayings segment deleted? Why is that so controversial to be deleted? {Cmguy777 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * Biographical articles aren't a collection of quotations; that's what Wikiquote is for]. Why not add them there?  Coemgenus 19:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that. To further the understanding of Harrison it is important to know what he said also.  He was President of the United States. I believe quotations from an Inaugural address are very important.  Lincoln, Jefferson, and Washington all have quotations in their articles.  Even in those articles there could be more quotations.  There is no such thing as a minor president and their words and writings are signifigant.{Cmguy777 (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * No one said the words were insignificant. I said that there is a better place for lists of quotations -- wikiquote.  A biographical article is a summary of the life of the subject.  Some things will inevitably be left out or abbreviated.  Coemgenus 20:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Got it.  Thanks.{Cmguy777 (talk) 00:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}

Inauguration
Thanks for the edit clean up. Looks good. I can visualize Cleveland holding up that umbrella. {Cmguy777 (talk) 00:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * I've added some cites to a scholarly text. FYI, the Chief Justice was Melville Fuller, not Robert Fuller.  Coemgenus 02:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The source I had did say Melville Fuller. I appreciate the edit.{Cmguy777 (talk) 03:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}

Vetoes
I would like to add a section on vetoes. There are three types: traditional, pocket, and overridden. I believe it shows how the President got along with Congress, particularly the overridden vetos. For example, Cleveland had 584 vetoes, while Thomas Jefferson did not have any vetoes.{Cmguy777 (talk) 01:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * It would make more sense to work any information about a particular veto into the flow of the narrative. Users simply interested in the number of vetoes can look to List of United States presidential vetoes, after all.  Coemgenus 01:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The point of discussing things on the talk page is to gain consensus, not to announce unilateral decisions. Coemgenus 02:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Point taken. My apologies. I suppose vetoes should be discussed if there is some milestone involved, such as Madison's first pocket vetoes, or Andrew Johnson's 15 overridden vetos. {Cmguy777 (talk) 03:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * Yes, that would make sense. Cleveland's many vetoes are discussed in his article, as well as the Texas Seed Corn veto specifically, which is seen as historic.  Coemgenus 03:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Pension Office Scandal
Just running this one by to see if it is worth to be in the Article. In 1891 there was a scandal that had to do with the Interior department. Green B. Raum, Jr., allegedly, was giving jobs in the Pension office for a "consideration". Also one of the clerks had someone else take the Civil Service test to get a passing grade. There was also allegations of nepotism. My source is the New York Times. Any suggestions? {Cmguy777 (talk) 01:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}
 * Unless Harrison had a hand in it, it seems a bit out of place in his biography. And we already have some info on his Pensions Bureau nominee, James R. Tanner, and the problems he had.  None of the biographies I read mention this Raum scandal.  --Coemgenus 02:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is the link to the New York Times Article:. The date on the Times article is May 22, 1891. Harrison was not involved, but Harrison had a direct talk with Commisioner Raum about the scandal. You can read the article. The paper made allegations of Harrison Administration with nepotism. The New York Times calls it a "scandal". I am not sure how his biographers missed this. Every author has a certain focus on each President. In my opinion it is worth being in the article. Consensus is needed. {Cmguy777 (talk) 03:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}


 * Not everything that transpired in Harrison's four years in office should be in this article. Remember that it is written in summary style.  The New York Times has articles in it every day about the Obama administration, yet most of them are not included in the Barack Obama article.  If the scholarly sources pay it no mind, neither should this much shorter encyclopedia article.  --Coemgenus 12:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, unless Harrison played a significant role, or it can be showed the scandal had some significant impact on his presidency, it is not worth inclusion here. If we want to make a very detailed article on his presidency perhaps a new article call Presidency of Benjamin Harrison could be started, using other presidency articles like Presidency of George Washington as an example. This article is close to maximum allowable length. WP:Article Length &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 18:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The difference for me in this regard is that it seems the New York Times is a legitimate source and captures the impact of the scandals. It also points out that Harrison had issues in the Pension department for some reason.  The Tanner scandal occured in 1889, while this Raum scandal occured two years later in 1891.  However, I respect your view points and there needs to be a consensus before adding to the article.  It would also help if other newspapers of the time covered the story to get a different perspective. (Cmguy777 (talk) 19:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC))