Talk:Bennetts Associates

Conflict of interest
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Copyright problem removed
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Bennetts Associates - Update Request
Hello Wikipedians,

Full disclosure: I am an employee of the architectural practice Bennetts Associates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennetts_Associates); the company page is quite out of date and I would like to ask editors/moderators if they would be happy to make a few factual updates since I am too close to the subject. Below are the points which would need updating, if possible:

1. The text mentions Rab Bennetts who is not the only founder – he co-founded the practice with his partner Denise Bennetts. Suggestion: “It was founded in 1987 by Rab Bennetts (who had previously worked for Ove Arup & Partners[1]:40) and his partner Denise Bennetts.”

2. The practice has five directors and is employee-owned. The other directors are Denise Bennetts, Julian Lipscombe, Simon Erridge and Peter Fisher. Suggestion: in the box on the right, next to ‘Key architects’, add the remaining four directors’ names.

3. The practice did become known for the design of large office buildings in its early days but its range of project types has much more diverse for some time now. Suggestion: The practice has completed projects in the education, commercial and public sectors as well as theatres and other cultural and historic buildings.

4. It is correct that “in 2005 Brighton Central Library was nominated for the Stirling Prize”; however the practice has had projects nominated on two other occasions: in 1998 the Richard Attenborough Centre for Disability and the Arts at the University of Leicester was nominated and in 2011 The Royal Shakespeare Theatre in Stratford-upon-Avon was also nominated.

5. The practice has a studio in Manchester, in addition to the ones in London and Edinburgh. Suggestion: The practice has studios in London, Edinburgh and Manchester.

If you need any other references, or have questions, please let me know.

Regards, Florence Floatba (talk) 11:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply quotebox with inserted reviewer decisions and feedback 1-FEB-2018
Below you will see where text from your request has been quoted and individual decisions, either accepting or declining the proposals, along with feedback related comments, have been inserted underneath each major proposal.  The text mentions Rab Bennetts who is not the only founder – he co-founded the practice with his partner Denise Bennetts. Suggestion: It was founded in 1987 by Rab Bennetts (who had previously worked for Ove Arup & Partners[1]:40) and his partner Denise Bennetts. Name added to infobox ___________ The practice has five directors and is employee-owned. The other directors are Denise Bennetts, Julian Lipscombe, Simon Erridge and Peter Fisher. Suggestion: in the box on the right, next to ‘Key architects’, add the remaining four directors’ names. Names added to infobox ___________ The practice did become known for the design of large office buildings in its early days but its range of project types has much more diverse for some time now. The practice has completed projects in the education, commercial and public sectors as well as theatres and other cultural and historic buildings. ❌ Void for vagueness: Completed projects as a claim is too vague. ___________ It is correct that “in 2005 Brighton Central Library was nominated for the Stirling Prize”; however the practice has had projects nominated on two other occasions: in 1998 the Richard Attenborough Centre for Disability and the Arts at the University of Leicester was nominated and in 2011 The Royal Shakespeare Theatre in Stratford-upon-Avon was also nominated.

___________ The practice has a studio in Manchester, in addition to the ones in London and Edinburgh. Suggestion: The practice has studios in London, Edinburgh and Manchester. ❌ Already done: This information is already present in the infobox. ✅ For more information about your request, please see the individual comments and replies in the quotebox above. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   16:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit request 2-FEB-2018
Hello,

Thank you for making edits to the infobox. For completeness shouldn't those be in the main text also? I have a few queries picking up on the points above:

1. Is it possible to add Denise Bennetts as co-founder with Rab Bennetts in the first line of text (I have just done this, with Companies House reference you have already added)?

2. Thanks

3. I'm not sure why 'completed projects (in the education, commercial and public sectors as well as theatres and other cultural and historic buildings)' is too vague? There is a list of completed projects already on the Wikipedia page and lots of photographs and references to them on the web from independent sources. Would you suggest different words to describe the range of buildings the practice has designed and which have been built, besides office buildings? E.g. if it is 'project' that is too vague, is 'building' better? E.g. 'completed buildings in the education, commercial and public sectors as well as theatres and other cultural and historic buildings'?

4. The Stirling Prize is awarded by the RIBA (see https://www.architecture.com/awards-and-competitions-landing-page/awards/riba-stirling-prize), unfortunately the web pages of the RIBA don't list the full shortlist for years past, including 2011 and 1998. So I gave several respected online publications as independent external sources. Actually, one of the links I gave is a list of the Stirling Prize shortlists on Wikipedia itself, so if that has been validated then it doesn't follow that the same information cannot be validated on this page? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Prize and read down under 'laureates and runner-ups':

1998: Ian Taylor with Bennetts Associates for Richard Attenborough Centre, University of Leicester, Leicester

2011: Bennetts Associates for Royal Shakespeare Theatre, Stratford-upon-Avon

5. As per point 1, I have added the Manchester studio location to London and Edinburgh, can it be included not just in the infobox but also in the main text for completeness?

Thank you. Floatba (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply 2-FEB-2018
Allow me to first to caution you that edits should not be made to this page by yourself. Please see WP:COIEDIT for more information about this advice. In reply to your points: Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   13:11, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) The references you provided do not make the distinction of founder, so the use of that term carries no weight, and is ultimately irrelevant. If you wish it to be relevant, please provide sources which argue for its relevance.
 * 2) If I were to attempt to send packages in the mail to any one of your firm's architectural projects, theaters or historic buildings, using only the following sentence written on the mailing labels: "The practice has completed projects in the education, commercial and public sectors as well as theatres and other cultural and historic buildings." — my packages would be returned to me as undeliverable. That is what I mean by vague.
 * 3) As I understand it, these nominations were announced seven years ago, and yet, still no information on the winners. If they are to have any chance of being in the article they will need third party primary sources reporting on the awards. If not, see point #4 below.
 * 4) Ideas about placing awards and recognitions in the article are ideas which should be left undeveloped at this point. The growth of the article ought not to lead with that category. Other areas should be developed first.
 * 5) The office locations have been placed and cited in the main text.
 * I admire and applaud for being so responsive to so many requests of this kind, and for answering here. And thanks to  for using the talk-page to request edits. However, I'm not sure that exactly the right decisions have been made in this case. Some thoughts, mostly for Floatba:
 * Companies House is a primary source; if we believe what it says then we would have to write, for example, that this company was started by John Pipes on behalf of Waterlow Secretaries Limited on 28 April 1992 (which it indubitably was – see last document on this page, "Incorporation"). Instead we write what is reported in independent reliable sources. There are indeed five people listed as officers of company, but we have no way of knowing whether they are architects, owners, founders, sleeping partners, or indeed somebody's spouse or relative added to the list for the tax breaks (as we all know, businessmen routinely make their wives company officers so that they can draw a separate income and benefit from the higher Personal Allowance).
 * Wikipedia cannot be a reference for itself, per WP:CIRCULAR
 * The references "GRI Sustainability Report" and "About Us" are published by the company itself: Wikipedia is built on what is reported in independent reliable sources, and cares little of nothing for what people and bodies choose to say about themselves.
 * The listing on the RIBA page (suggested above, not in use in the article) is written by the company: "We are now an employee-owned trust ..."
 * The real problem here is WP:notability – there just isn't enough in-depth coverage of this practice to justify having a Wikipedia article on it. I don't know why I didn't nominate it for deletion when I removed the copyvio and promo here last year; I'm going to do so now. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply
I appreciate the recognition from Just. To be clear, the GRI Sustainability Report was listed as a reference for the claim "sustainable design as one of its key principles." A principle is a proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief, in this case, their ideas regarding sustainable design. The use of their own produced materials as references for their own belief systems and ideas about design is an appropriate use of the reference in question. The only other changes I made to the article were to add names to the infobox, one city to the main text, and the removal of the mentioning of an award nomination. I understand that Just isnt sure that the right changes were made, and that's fine, but I would object to any characterization that wrong changes were made, and I hope that's not the case. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   14:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I'm saying I'm not sure they were right, starting a discussion. My take: if the stuff about sustainable design is their own proposition, then we can't state it in Wikipedia's voice (and we really don't care what they say about themselves anyway – we don't do "mission statements" and the like here); I see no reference that says Denise Bennett was a founder of the company; and those five people are listed by Companies House as directors, not partners. What I suggest: let's see what happens at AfD, and re-visit this only if consensus is to keep the page. Would that work? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:27, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree.   Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   21:18, 2 February 2018 (UTC)