Talk:Berat/Archive 1

Map?
This is a nice article. Could a map be added for those of us unfamiliar with the location or its surroundings (I know you've got coordinatates but these are not intuitive). Thanks, Hu Gadarn 22:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

math
this is math —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.202.122 (talk) 18:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Dessarates were Greeks and so was the City

 * Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith Epirus & MAcedon.Berat occupies the site of the Greek town of Antipatrea, which the Romans at the,Encyclopedia American.Even the name is Greek.Megistias (talk) 20:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The founder of the town may have been Cassander who named it after his father Antipater at 314 BC,

The Hellenistic Settlements in Europe, the Islands, and Asia Minor από Getzel M. CohenMegistias (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thats not true Dassarete were an Illyrian tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.64.163 (talk) 01:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Revert the map

 * Revert Megistias (talk) 22:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Bring the map back this is an encyclopedia.Megistias (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

greeks?
There is no such thing as greeks in berat. the census of 1989 does not show any greek. I will remove it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.171 (talk) 16:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The other names (Greek etc.) are just for historical reasons. Also, according to reliable research there are Greeks and Vlavhs in Berat and in nearby villages. [].Alexikoua (talk) 11:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC) There aren't any greek origin livin in berat area i visited and i've seen albanians emigrants speaking sometime greek but they weren't greek or greek origin, in census said there's non greek living in those area, greek origin reside exc. only in dropull are, i dont know who put greek in berat city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.187.126.137 (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

name
Current explanation of name is uterly incorect,  Berat  can't be derived from Turkish  beyaz because city is recorded as Belgrad  since 11th century in Greek, Latin and Slavic sources while Ottomans came to Balkans in 14th century. Albanian chronicler George Musachi who wrote his chronicle in 1515. calls city Beligrad as well as Skanderbeg's biographer Barleti, so the fact is that even Albanians called it Belgrad which latter evolved into Berat by contraction of consonant -lgr- group into -r- and change of -d into -t, while construction Beyaz-Berat is lexicaly unexplainable in both Albanian and Turkish. Local toponyms in central Albania such as  Corovode  from Slavic  Crne vode  meaning  Black Waters ,  Korca  from  Gorica  meaning mountain,  Glavinica  from Slavic  glavica  meaning  promontory   etc only corroborate this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanedstino (talk • contribs) 18:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

ip disruption
It seems that specific ips were instructed to follow me around and revert me by any mean possible []. The use of hostile edit summaries with wrong use of wp terms is really weird for an unlogged/without experience editor. If there is a real objection of this important, sourced by two credible authors on the subject, historic event I'm open to hear about.Alexikoua (talk) 22:03, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Disruption
If Alexikoua thinks that Hammond and Walbank are wrong he should take his issues to RSN, but if he makes any further blind reverts I'll ask for admin intervention.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hammond is right when saying that the Kingdom of Macedonia was an ancient Greek kingdom that time. Something you misused here. Actually the one that makes blind reverts in zero time is you something that reveals a very extreme nature (not only in this article).Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You reverted even the founding date of the city and its geographical location, so if Hammond, Walbank and Cohen don't say ancient Greek don't label it as such.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:00, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * since the Macedonian kindom that time was an ancient Greek kingdom then Antipatriea was an ancient Greek city, that's simple logic.

I notice that the history block proves that you are cooperating with ip disruption: you reacted only when I showed up (in less than a minute) although the article was hit by vandalism more than 3 hours. That's really sad by your side.Alexikoua (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't attribute motives and stick to the sources. Btw the fact that you consider Macedonian kingdoms as ancient Greek is not an issue of simple logic as you label it. Even on the article of Macedon such a view is considered pov .-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems you are again wrong: I said 'that time', and that time it was. I can assume that have just run out of arguments now.Alexikoua (talk) 21:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua please stick to the sources, since what you consider as simple logic is WP:OR and would be reverted if you added it on Macedon.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:24, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Pëllumbas
Pëllumbas is one of the villages(more than 100 in total) that are part of the Berat municipality, so please don't remove information about the municipality from Berat. Btw nothing got lost during cpe since Wilkes doesn't say that what kind of settlement Berat originally was.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 06:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, this article is about the city of Berat, not "Berat and the more than 100 villages that are part of Berat municipality". And what municipality? I only see a Berat County and a District of Berat, but no Berat municipality. I also do not at all appreciate your removal of Wilkes and your blanket, knee-jerk revert. Athenean (talk) 18:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll ask for admin intervention for your wikilawyering. Btw you were making the opposite arguments at Preveza, which also isn't titled municipality of Preveza, but like always you're following double standards an oring(no earliest inhabitants information in the sources).-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Please don't threaten me with "admin intervention". But if you do seek "admin intervention" maybe you can also point out to them your removal of Wilkes while you're at it. By the way, if I catch you feeding false information to people on IRC this time, I will file an AE report. As for Preveza, in Greece there are municipalities which cover a large area, which does not appear to be the case with Albania, where there are towns, districts and counties. I moved the info to Berat County, what more do you want? And what is "oring"? Athenean (talk) 18:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Athenean of course there are municipalities in Albania, so at least you should partially revert yourself and add the info about Pëllumbas back. The Berat District has two municipalities that of Berat and that of Urë Vajgurore, with Pëllumbas belonging to that of Berat. Btw why don't you make precise edits? Neither Cambridge nor Hammond say that the Dexari were the earliest inhabitants.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, whatever happened to that "admin intervention"? What is this supposed to mean ? No sources point out to any recorded inhabitants before the Dexaroi, so yes, they are the earliest known inhabitants, unless you can come up with sources that there were earlier recorded inhabitants. Athenean (talk)
 * I'm trying to AGF, so now that you know the administrative divisions of Berat District could you please add back the information about Pellumbas? Btw that is WP:OR, so be precise.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * No OR, everything is sourced. The sources do not show any known inhabitants before the Dexaroi. And all I see in the PDF is that Berat County is divided into three districts, which the PDF calls "municipalities" but here we call "Districts", as in District of Berat. You are welcome to add it there, but this is the article on the town of Berat. Have a nice day. Athenean (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Athenean the District of Berat has the municipalities of Berat and Urë Vajgurore per the administrative divisions found so can you please at least partially self-revert yourself?-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 19:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)*Berat County>Berat District>Berat Urë Vajgurore>10 communes>122 villages.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * ??? In the case of Preveza, the ruins of Nicopolis are walking distance from the town. You have yet to show me that Pellumbas is anywhere near (e.g. 5 km) Berat. Athenean (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not included in the administrative divisions of Albania. Even if Pellumbas was in the border of Berat district with another county, it would still be part of the Berat municipality. I'll add the Pëllumbas information, since it is a village of the municipality of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I could agree to what you are saying if you can show that the village is sufficiently close to the town. But if it's something like 10 or 20 km away, forget it. Athenean (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not 20km away, but even if it was 50km away it would still be part of the municipality. These are the administrative divisions of Albania and unless they change Pellumbas is still a village of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * ...but even if it was 50 km away... What nonsense. Athenean (talk) 20:42, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)I added the Pëllumbas information, since it is a village of the municipality of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It appears that Zjarri. is completely wrong, Pennumbas isn't included even in the same district with Berat, [] it belongs to Kuçovë district (off course it's in different municipality too). Guess this part should be moved to the relevant articleAlexikoua (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)Please don't cite wiki material(wikimapia users also placed the same Pëllumbas in Elbasan) and btw Pëllumbas-Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Your map shows absolutely nothing, while Alexikoua's map shows that the village isn't even located in the District of Berat, let alone the municipality. Your false claims, tendentious editing and now edit-warring are more than enough for disciplinary action, let alone your threats and attempts at intimidation ("I will seek admin intervention"). Athenean (talk) 18:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua linked to wikimapia, which also places Pëllumbas in Elbasan and wikimapia can be edited by everyone like wikipedia i.e you can't cite wikimapia. It is indeed tendetious to try to remove sourced information for the usual pov reasons, to insist that wiki sites are rs and btw as on Krokodeilos Kladas, Byllis etc. outside intevention will be probably needed to deal with your pov.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) and the position of Pëllumbas within Berat(National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency). Please stick to the sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:07, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I think that settles it. If we look at the link you provided, or enter the coordinates you provided into Google Earth, we see that village of Pellumbas lies 20 km north of Berat, in the District of Kucove and not the District of Berat! In fact, it's much closer to the town of Kucove than to the town of Berat! So your unsubstantiated claims about it being in the municipality of Berat are nonsense, which also explains why you haven't been able to provide any evidence that the village lies in the municipality of Berat. You are welcome to enter the information in Kucove, but if I see you edit-warring to re-insert the material here again, I will be very disappointed. 20:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Athenean please stick to the sources and not your own or about coordinates. The district of Kucove doesn't include Pellumbas.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Look at the map that you yourself provided: Pellumbas lies in the district of Kucove and not Berat, and you know this. It lies in the county of Berat, which includes the district of Kucove where the village lies. You have provided zero evidence that it lies in the municipality of Berat, so yes, you should stick to the sources. Your own sources, that is. Athenean (talk) 20:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The district of Kucove doesn't include Pellumbas, which is almost on the border with District of Gramsh, while Kucove borders Elbasan District and not that Gramsh, which is bordered by Berat District. If I were wrong I would revert myself. Go to IRC and ask from someone else to check the two maps too.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 21:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, the village of Pellumbas clearly lies in the district of Kucove according to your own map. It's not anywhere close to Berat, over 20 kilometers away. Now you are just WP:IDHT, so conversation is over. Athenean (talk) 21:17, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Athenean according to the maps Pellumbas is within the District of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:22, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, it is within the County of Berat, but not the District of Berat. It is in the Distric of Kucove, within the county of Berat. Bye now.Athenean (talk) 21:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually this village is part of the Lumas municipality [][][]. Zjarri: when trying to convince other editors plz user precise arguments. This village belongs to another municipality. I would appreciate if you give up at least now.Alexikoua (talk) 21:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * AlbaniaBerat.png and Pëllumbas within Berat. Alexikoua Lumas is a commune(komunë) of the municipality of Berat and not a municipality(bashki) per the administrative divisions of Albania. Lumas is a wikipedia article i.e don't cite wikipedia.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you have crossed trolling territory now: I have already cited Kohajone [], in general komuna means municipality. Also what you site says nothing about the village[[]]. According to this argument we should add Himara's history in Vlore, or Dropull's in Gjirokaster (something you didn't like in past)Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua like many other countries Albania has municipalities, which have communes, which have villages per the administrative divisions of the country(btw Himarë is a municipality).-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:28, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

The village is over 20 km away in a different district, case closed. And unless sources can be found showing earlier recorded inhabitants, the "Earliest recorded inhabitants..." wording should stay as is. Athenean (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll ask from someone else to compare the maps and then I'll revert you. Btw if other users do say that it's on the district of Berat, please don't revert for the 4th time.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Since you are going to revert (for the 5th time?) anyway, why bother asking someone else's opinion in the first place? Athenean (talk) 22:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As I see the maps given by Zjarri. are about districts not municipalities. Even if they were about municipalities the above argument is contradictory since according to the same maps Himara would not be a seperate municipality but it would belong to Vlore (also wrong claim).Alexikoua (talk) 22:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua according to the administrative divisions of Albania Himarë is a municipality, not a commune. Athenean I didn't revert this information 4 times. Btw Alexikoua by saying that Pëllumbas is located in the commune of Lumas you're stating that it's part of Berat District. Pellumbas in Lumas and Lumas is in the district of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:22, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The village is over 20 km from Berat, this is ridiculous. You can't possibly seriously claim that these artifacts were "found in Berat", unless "Berat" refers to the County of Berat, where this information is already added. Athenean (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The village is in the district of Berat because it's in the commune of Lumas i.e it belongs to the municipality of Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Anything else beside WP:OR? The village is 20 km away from the town, you can't seriously claim that it is "Berat". To include archeological finds in village X which is 20 km from town Y as "archeological remains were found in town Y" is complete nonsense. I am calling WP:COMMONSENSE on this one. I know it really really bothers you that the history section of this town should begin with the mention of "Greek" tribe (somehow you don't seem nearly as interested in adding the info about the Bronze Age artifacts to Kucove which is actually much closer to Pellumbas) but unfortunately, until such a time as Bronze Age artifacts are actually found inside Berat as opposed to some village 20 km away, that's how it's going to stay. Athenean (talk) 02:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

add link
Please, add this link to article
 * Current time, sunrise and sunset today+Berat map

Assessment comment
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