Talk:Berbers/Archive 1

Aziri
the discovery is a ideologie and politiek, because the berber are komed from noord afrika , and hhey are there.

I have a quetion: If the berber are komed from arabie, why is the berberlanguage not a semitic language?


 * You're right to be skeptical - most modern historians think they came from East Africa, not the Middle East. I have updated it to that effect.  Mustafaa 22:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC).

-

Both Ibn Khaldun and Averroes were Andalusi, not North African, and other sources describe them as Arab; until someone can provide evidence to the contrary, they have been removed from the list. The same goes for Ibn Tufayl. Mustafaa 05:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Tunisie is not in north africa (!!!!!). if you want.
 * Tinmel In Marokko is not in north-africa (!!!!) .if you want.

Ibn khaldoen is born a Tunisie en Averoes was a dokter of de berber Emir (almohaden) en he is dead in morocco.

True, but that doesn't make either of them Berbers. Both Ibn Khaldun's parents were from Seville, and Averroes was born in Cordoba. - Mustafaa 19:32, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Mauris are not Arabs .The Mauri were de most peolpel of Andoloesie, abdel Er Rahman was a son of a Berber women. The Almoravid and Almohad were a Berber in Andalusie. -No problem. They are Arab.

The Moors are not pure Arabs or pure Berbers (or pure Spaniards), but a mixture of the two (in Spain, the three). Many medieval authors make a three-way difference between Arabs and Berbers in the countryside and "Moors", or &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;, in the cities. However, most "Moors" spoke Arabic.


 * how?? do you have a answer??

(any answer) ---


 * But in some places there was a sharp division between Muladis, Arabs, Berbers (and even Saqaliba). In some regions, a certain group ruled over the others. Of course, there would be intermixing and alliances. -- Error 01:49, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Who were Muladis?


 * Previous inhabitants (Hispano-Romans or Visigoths) converting to Islam. -- Error 01:36, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh right - I've always heard them called the Afariqa. - Mustafaa 01:49, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * From what I found in Google, the Afariqa were Christian Berbers, the North African equivalent of Mozarabs. Muladis were Muslim (I read that the word comes from Arabic muwalladum, if that helps. -- Error 01:58, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * The others I've heard of; there were a lot of Saqaliba in Sicily, especially. Sounds like an interesting potential article... - Mustafaa 18:03, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see it. -- Error 01:36, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * For North Africa, I'd have to track down what Ibn Khaldun says in the Muqaddimah - he considered the language of the towns to be a form of Arabic "corrupted" by foreign influence and city life, if I recall rightly. But for Spain, I have an answer right here - all the muwasshahat &#1605;&#1608;&#1588;&#1581;&#1575;&#1578; are written in Spanish darja, and Federico Corriente has even published a dictionary of the dialect, and a grammar.  It had many words from Berber and Spanish, but still Arabic grammar and mostly Arabic words. - Mustafaa 19:42, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Almoravids and Almohads did conquer Andalusia, but they didn't come from there; their empires began in Mauritania and Morocco, and went north. - Mustafaa 17:53, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Mustafaa 17:53, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

the berber was there firstly with tarik ibn ziyad in 711( 8000) the arabs are komed in 712 (1200).

That's absolutely true. However, a lot more Arabs came when the Umayyad dynasty was overthrown. - Mustafaa 19:42, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Is Ibn Khaldun a arab or athers?

If Ibn khaldun a arab was, why could ibn khaldun these writen:


 * http://www.tawiza.nl/content/awid.php?id=414&sid=14&andra=artikel
 * http://amazighworld.net/history/ancienthistory/articles/arabe_ibn_khaldun.php
 * http://membres.lycos.fr/benikou/
 * http://www.tawiza.net/Tawiza70/Uoettva.htm

I'm not akkord with ibn khaldun, but you chould these see (I think that you kan speak arab and french).sorry sire mustafaa.


 * I think he considered himself neither Arab nor Berber, since he uses both terms only to refer to nomads and country people. I'll look for his exact quote, and have a look at the links you mention. - Mustafaa 19:46, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm... So far, he describes the dialects (basically &#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1577;!) in chapter 47, "Why the modern language of the Arabs is different". Here it is:


 * "&#1608;&#1573;&#1606;&#1605;&#1575; &#1608;&#1602;&#1593;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1606;&#1575;&#1610;&#1577; &#1576;&#1604;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1590;&#1585;&#1548; &#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1601;&#1587;&#1583; &#1576;&#1605;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1591;&#1578;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1593;&#1575;&#1580;&#1605;&#1548; &#1581;&#1610;&#1606; &#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1608;&#1604;&#1608;&#1575; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1605;&#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1575;&#1605; &#1608;&#1605;&#1589;&#1585; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1594;&#1585;&#1576;&#1548; &#1608;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1605;&#1604;&#1603;&#1578;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1594;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1610; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606;&#1578; &#1571;&#1608;&#1604;&#1575;&#1611;&#1548; &#1601;&#1575;&#1606;&#1602;&#1604;&#1576; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1582;&#1585;&#1609;.


 * "But change came upon the language of Mudar, as it was corrupted by their mixing with non-Arabs, when they conquered the kingdoms of Iraq and ash-Sham and Egypt and the Maghreb, and it became other than what it was, and turned into a new language."


 * And then he says:


 * "&#1608;&#1604;&#1593;&#1604;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1608; &#1575;&#1593;&#1578;&#1606;&#1610;&#1606;&#1575; &#1576;&#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1610; &#1604;&#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1607;&#1583; &#1608;&#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1602;&#1585;&#1610;&#1606;&#1575; &#1571;&#1581;&#1603;&#1575;&#1605;&#1607;&#1548; &#1606;&#1593;&#1578;&#1575;&#1590; &#1593;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1593;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1610; &#1601;&#1587;&#1583;&#1578; &#1601;&#1610; &#1583;&#1604;&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1607;&#1575; &#1576;&#1571;&#1605;&#1608;&#1585; &#1571;&#1582;&#1585;&#1609; &#1608;&#1603;&#1610;&#1601;&#1610;&#1575;&#1578; &#1605;&#1608;&#1580;&#1608;&#1583;&#1577; &#1601;&#1610;&#1607;&#1548; &#1601;&#1578;&#1603;&#1608;&#1606; &#1604;&#1607;&#1575; &#1602;&#1608;&#1575;&#1606;&#1610;&#1606; &#1578;&#1582;&#1589;&#1607;&#1575;. "


 * "And if we had preserved this Arabic language to this day and stabilized its rules, we would still be using the case endings that have gone in other matters and the potentials within it, for it would have the rules needed."


 * That seems like good evidence that he spoke Arabic natively. However, he never calls himself an "Arab" or a "Berber", as far as I can see. - Mustafaa 21:21, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, the text is from Al-Waraq. - Mustafaa 21:22, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * And for the towns speaking mainly Arabic:


 * "&#1608;&#1593;&#1606;&#1583;&#1607;&#1605; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1573;&#1606;&#1605;&#1575; &#1610;&#1578;&#1605;&#1610;&#1586; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1585;&#1610;&#1581; &#1605;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1582;&#1610;&#1604; &#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1608;&#1576;&#1610;&#1577; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1610; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1591;&#1602; &#1576;&#1607;&#1584;&#1607; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1575;&#1601;."


 * "And you can distinguish an original Arab from an Arabized person or a townsman (&#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1610;, which much later European writers started translating as Moor) by their pronunciation of qaf." - Mustafaa 21:32, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * You see, in Ibn Khaldun's time "Arab" only meant nomads and Bedouin. People didn't consider themselves "Arabs" just because they speak the language, as people usually do now.  If you asked him whether he was Arab or Berber, he would have said that he was &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1610;. - Mustafaa 21:35, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hey, this is cool. A whole chapter about the language of the towns:


 * "&#1601;&#1610; &#1571;&#1606; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1605;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585;..

&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607;&#1575; &#1605;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1601;&#1577; &#1604;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1605;&#1590;&#1585;. &#1575;&#1593;&#1604;&#1605; &#1571;&#1606; &#1593;&#1585;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1582;&#1575;&#1591;&#1576; &#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1605;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585; &#1608;&#1576;&#1610;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585; &#1604;&#1610;&#1587; &#1576;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1605;&#1590;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1583;&#1610;&#1605;&#1577;&#1548; &#1608;&#1604;&#1575; &#1576;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1580;&#1610;&#1604;&#1548; &#1576;&#1604; &#1607;&#1610; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1582;&#1585;&#1609; &#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607;&#1575; &#1576;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583;&#1577; &#1593;&#1606; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1605;&#1590;&#1585; &#1608;&#1593;&#1606; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1580;&#1610;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1604;&#1593;&#1607;&#1583;&#1606;&#1575;&#1548; &#1608;&#1607;&#1610; &#1593;&#1606; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1605;&#1590;&#1585; &#1571;&#1576;&#1593;&#1583;.  &#1601;&#1571;&#1605;&#1575; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607;&#1575; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607;&#1575; &#1601;&#1607;&#1608; &#1592;&#1575;&#1607;&#1585;&#1548; &#1610;&#1588;&#1607;&#1583; &#1604;&#1607; &#1605;&#1575; &#1601;&#1610;&#1607;&#1575; &#1605;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1594;&#1575;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583; &#1593;&#1606; &#1589;&#1606;&#1575;&#1593;&#1577; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1581;&#1608; &#1604;&#1581;&#1606;&#1575;&#1611;. &#1608;&#1607;&#1610; &#1605;&#1593; &#1584;&#1604;&#1603; &#1578;&#1582;&#1578;&#1604;&#1601; &#1576;&#1575;&#1582;&#1578;&#1604;&#1575;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1605;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585; &#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1589;&#1591;&#1604;&#1575;&#1581;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;&#1605;&#1548; &#1601;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1585;&#1602; &#1605;&#1576;&#1575;&#1610;&#1606;&#1577; &#1576;&#1593;&#1590; &#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1610;&#1569; &#1604;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1594;&#1585;&#1576;&#1548; &#1608;&#1603;&#1584;&#1575; &#1571;&#1607;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1606;&#1583;&#1604;&#1587; &#1605;&#1593;&#1607;&#1605;&#1575;&#1548; &#1608;&#1603;&#1604; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1605;&#1578;&#1608;&#1589;&#1604; &#1576;&#1604;&#1594;&#1578;&#1607; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1578;&#1571;&#1583;&#1610;&#1577; &#1605;&#1602;&#1589;&#1608;&#1583;&#1607; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1576;&#1575;&#1606;&#1577; &#1593;&#1605;&#1575; &#1601;&#1610; &#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607;. &#1608;&#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1605;&#1593;&#1606;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577;. &#1608;&#1601;&#1602;&#1583;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1593;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; &#1604;&#1610;&#1587; &#1576;&#1590;&#1575;&#1574;&#1585; &#1604;&#1607;&#1605; &#1603;&#1605;&#1575; &#1602;&#1604;&#1606;&#1575;&#1607; &#1601;&#1610; &#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1604;&#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1607;&#1583;. "


 * "About how the language of the townsmen and the cities is a language in its own right, different from the language of Mudar. Know that discourse in the camps and among the towns is not in the old language of Mudar, nor in the language of this generation (?), but it is another language in its own right, far both from the language of Mudar and from the language of this Arab generation in our time, but furthest from the language of Mudar.  It's obvious that it's a language in its own right, as witnessed by the amount of change in it which makes it far from the constructions of the grammarians.  Nonetheless, it varies according to the city in its expressions, so the Mashriq differs somewhat from that of the Maghreb, and likewise that of Andalus with both of them, and each of them uses its language for the expression of its meanings and what is within them.  And that is the meaning of "tongue" and "language".  And the disappearance of case endings is not peculiar to them, because it happened, as we have noted, in the modern language of the Arabs." - Mustafaa 22:00, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

- okké, mustafaa, who spoked about arabisc is arab. (I don't think so, because if ibn khaldun a arab was, did he not so writed about the arabs). but kussala is a arabic name, I hoop that aksil is not arab.

It is realy funny that :
 * the mauri are arabs.
 * the berber komed from arabia.
 * the berber language is old arabic.
 * Ibn khaldun is arab.
 * averoes is a arab.
 * dihya have a arabic name (al-kahina)
 * aksil have a arabic name (kussyla)
 * the arab broucht the civilisation to north-africa.

(realy ...)


 * The Mauri of Roman times were certainly Berbers. But later Europeans used the term to mean the people of North African cities - people of partly or mostly Berber origin, but who speak Arabic.  And until Arab nationalism was invented, most city people of North Africa didn't think of themselves as Berber nor as Arab - just as "city people".


 * But Berbers did not come from Arabia; Ibn Khaldun discusses that idea, but ultimately says it isn't true, and I think he was right. Dihya and Kusayla both got their Arabic names from Arabs, not from their own people, and if anyone brought civilization to North Africa it was the Phoenicians. - Mustafaa 17:57, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

-- would you these also translate, If you want?? because I Don't spek englysch good.

http://www.multimania.com/benikou (I think that thes is koppieed from almokadimmah, (original).

specialy :* the most of the sheres ware not arabs. En athers but ,same you see, I can not translate, but I beleave that you wil do. thinks (I have the intress for that).
 * The arabs went just the easy wolks.
 * the arabs komd not to de gouvernite withoud the religion.


 * I'll try! - Mustafaa 17:57, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thinks.


 * No guarantees of accuracy - this is difficult language - but: "The entry of the Arabs of Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym into the Maghreb: The tribal groups of Hilal and Sulaym of Mudar were still apparent throughout the Abbasid period around Hijaz and Najd, with Hila around al-Madina and Sulaym in Mt Ghazwan near Ta'if.  Their migratory round took them as far as the borders of Iraq and Syria, where they would pillage and destroy and attack travellers and sometimes Sulaym would even attack the Hajj caravans in their season.  Sulaym and many of Rabia b. Amer allied with the Carmathians when they appeared, and fought for them in Bahrain and Oman."


 * "And when the party of Ubayd Allah al-Hamadi had won in Egypt and Syria and the Carmathians had been defeated in the towns of Syria, he exiled them to the Sa'id and the east bank of the Nile. And when the king of the Senhaja turned to al-Mu`izz ben Badis ben al-Mansour in the year 408, ad-Dhahir li-Din Illah gave authority over Africa to Ali b. al-Hakim bi-Amr Illah b. (etc.), an untried youth with no experience or authority.

you can say that he was a berber. same as i am a berber.

Not everyone born in North Africa - let alone Spain! - was Berber; there were large communities of Phoenicians, Romans, Arabs, Spaniards, and Arabic-speakers who didn't call themselves Arabs. It is no more safe to call all North Africans Berber than to call all Arabic-speakers Arabs - and as I keep saying, Ibn Khaldun would have considered himself neither Arab nor Berber, but hadhri or even Andalusi. - Mustafaa 20:24, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

you can say that everybody born in North afrika is a berber until you have the contrary. ibn khladun was not a foenicians, not romans ,not spaniards. if a another one could learen the scriptie of ibn khaldun would say that he is anti-arab. it mean he is not arab. if you leared the scriptie of ibn khaldun you could thiscovered that he say that the most of the sheres were not arab : he sayed :if anybody was shere with the arab, he was not a arab of origine. he sayed also that the body that maked the grammatica of the arabs ware (ajam) not arabs lijk: sibawayh and al-zajaaj. the ather sheres were not arabs but arabised lijk: saad ad-din ataftazi ,Ibn alkhatib. nasr ad-din. -i know athers : "avecinna and ibn tufayl and ibn ruchd (averroes) and alkhawarismi and albokhari and moslim and ibn horayra and ibn khaldun and ibn baja and ibn maja and albaqri and alrrazi and alghazali ......" everybody of them was not arab. "the arab wanted just to be a king and having the power not learen". (that sayed ibn khaldun)

you don't have it to translated because i understand good arabic.


 * He's anti-Arab, certainly - in the sense that Arab was used at the time; "Arab" only referred to bedouins back then. That doesn't imply that he was Berber; in his definition of Arab, I'm not Arab, and neither was Bourguiba, nor Gamal Abd el Nasser, and certainly not Michel Aflaq! That doesn't mean that I'm Berber, or that Bourguiba was Berber.  Anyway, what makes you so sure he wasn't Spanish, considering both his parents were from Seville, and there were plenty of Spanish who converted to Islam? -

Mustafaa 17:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Moreover, most of the people listed are firmly known to be Berber, on the basis of their immediate origins and their own claims. There's no mystery about it; if someone's nisba is "as-Sanhaji" or "al-Bejawi" or "al-Kutami" or the like, they're Berber!  "al-Ishbili" isn't quite as convincing. - Mustafaa 17:28, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Septimus sevirus and his son were imazighen (berber) and apuleuis was a (amazigh). they were not arab not punic. you should chek it!!!!


 * Apuleius' nephew spoke Punic, according to his own words - and Punic remained official in Lepcis Magna for much longer than most of Africa; practically all the city inscriptions are bilingual in Latin and Punic. That's pretty strong evidence that they were Punic.  What's your evidence that they were Berber?  Just the fact that they came from North Africa? - Mustafaa 18:29, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Frecklefoot: don't you think foreign language links are worth including, especially since for Berber they are of a much higher quality in foreign languages? They could have a section of their own, say. - Mustafaa 18:44, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

can you use : http://www.google.be pleas ,use also apulee. , berber, amazigh.

if you don't want do see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuleius. pleas


 * Which you added yourself! I will now admit that Apuleius was Berber, since he apparently described himself as "half-Numidian, half-Gaetulian". But Septimius Severus is another matter. ". His paternal great-grandfather, who had moved from Lepcis Magna to Italy and become an equestrian, was most likely of Punic origin and his mother, Fulvia Pia, was from a family which had moved from Africa to Italy. Little is known of Severus' father, Publius Septimius Geta, other than that he had two cousins who became consuls." - Mustafaa 19:24, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Do you know where is septimus severus born? Do you think that al carthago were punic? If you don't know I'll tell you but tomorouw because I don't have nou enogh time.

Yes, he was born in the extremely Punic city of Lepcis Magna - which was founded by the Phoenicians, and was one of the last areas in all Africa to continue to speak Punic. Look at the names in - do they look Berber to you? Carthage was not all Punic - there were many Latin, Berber, and Greek immigrants - but it certainly isn't safe to assume someone from a city like that was Berber. You might as well say Albert Camus was Berber because he came from Algiers! - Mustafaa 19:59, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You are genie, great. they were from apunic origine. you sayed. great!!! all the world know that they were not romans. but sire mustafaa is the most great because you see them as feniciers. same as you are a prof. don't know you that carthago of the feniciers was end in 146 B.J??? don't know you that that carthago a roman carthago ?? don't know yoy that the feniciers was not more in north arfrica when jezus is komed??

did you these see???:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus.


 * septimus severus was a berber
 * septimus was a berber
 * septimus severus was a berber (his life ) in Dutch)
 * septimus severus was a berber (in arabic)
 * spetimus severus was a berber (frensh)
 * severus was a berber (frensh)

that is not funny for you ?hé. .......

would you see :http://www.google.com/intl/ar/ or http://www.google.be (pleas).

Actually, Phoenician was still spoken in Libya long after the fall of Carthage:, - and, though himself a Berber, Augustine spoke it too. He cites several Phoenician words, such as salus for three. Even in Al-Bakri's time some Libyan towns spoke a language neither Berber nor Arabic nor Coptic nor Latin, according to him. Even the Romans didn't go so far as to massacre every Phoenician; they destroyed Carthage - and repopulated it with Romans when they refounded it - but not the many other Phoenician towns. And every one of the sources you mention merely claims that he was a Berber, without giving any evidence - except the Arabic one, which doesn't even claim he was Berber, just that he was Libyan. - Mustafaa 17:14, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

you understand arabic, don't tel me "no". now can you leasten to it in arabic: see :
 * http://www.tawalt.com/Documentry_library_display.cfm

No Phoenicians? Look at this:
 * "Indeed, Di Vita 1964, reviewing both philological and archæological evidence, has shown that a population of a mixed Punic-Libyan stock yet with Punic language and culture, had risen in the interior by the first century CE (comp. Sallust Bellum Iugurthinum 78: eius civitatis lingua modo convorsa conubio numidarum; legum cultusque pleraque Sidonica; this was after all the territory of the libufoinikes of Strabo xvii). As late as the sixth century, we have evidence of Punic culture at Ghadames." - Mustafaa 17:43, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

oncreable ,I leasten more ,but you did leasten and looked?? if you did leasten you did knouwed that viba spoked latin and punic and tamazight. sire mustafaa. I 'll not more write in thes page because if you don't want to see i can nothing do, if want to say that i'm a arab i can not much do, becouse you don't want to know. Go write about the famous arabs lijk bin laden and saddan hussien. do wat do you want.bye. Yuba.

No I didn't, because I don't have speakers on this computer. As for the rest - look, I've added plenty of great Berbers to this page. The difference is that I only add them if there's good evidence that they were actually Berber, whereas you seem to be content to merely take activist websites' word for it. - Mustafaa 18:09, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) --

Dhimmis
I read that in some period of Al-Andalus, the Berbers were forced to pay the "personal tribute for non-Muslims". I find very strange that a Muslim is treated as a Dhimmi. The source has a quite strong bias against Islam. Can somebody confirm? -- Error 01:49, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * That's not totally inconceivable. The strict stipulations of the Sharia about how much tax you can charge Muslims (and how you can't enslave Muslims) often posed an inconvenience for medieval monarchs; they sometimes got around it by arguing that, even though a given people had converted, they had initially rejected Islam and were thus still to be treated as if they were non-Muslims.  (I know, I know... political sophistry is nothing new.) But I've never heard of that happening in Andalus, just in sub-Saharan Africa. - Mustafaa 04:46, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Who counts as a Berber?
hello mustapha, here will answer I short, with a couple observations you. averroes have been probably driven to all amazigh. but the Arabs consider themselves themselves as the enigen which was in Spain, and as if the caliph of almohaden only went to Spain.  and ibn khaldun were by all odds amazigh, but the Arabs consider themselves as the enigen which wrote in Arabic but see also : vibia perpitua were permanently tamazight,de sources which told perpitua concerning vibia that tamazight woman were taken up, and assassinated is therefore there none doubt that she was tamazight.see: and turtillian was a amazigh see:. septimus severus and its zoon warn imazighen, because major father was called Afer, and that is amazigh name, [ http://www.mondeberbere.com/prenoms/indexc.htm] (this was writen by an arabic-speaking : &#1608;&#1610;&#1588;&#1610;&#1585; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1590;&#1575;&#1601;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1609; &#1605;&#1606; &#1587;&#1576;&#1602; &#1584;&#1603;&#1585;&#1607;&#1605; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1571;&#1583;&#1576;&#1575;&#1569; &#1608;&#1605;&#1581;&#1575;&#1605;&#1610;&#1606; &#1570;&#1582;&#1585;&#1610;&#1606; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1575; &#1610;&#1603;&#1578;&#1576;&#1608;&#1606; &#1608;&#1610;&#1593;&#1576;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1575;&#1578;&#1610;&#1606;&#1610;&#1577; &#1603;&#1584;&#1604;&#1603; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1607;&#1610;&#1585; &#1587;&#1575;&#1604;&#1601;&#1610;&#1608;&#1587; &#1580;&#1608;&#1604;&#1610;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1587; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1575;&#1593;&#1585; &#1605;&#1606;&#1610;&#1604;&#1608;&#1587; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1591;&#1610;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1601;&#1610;&#1604;&#1587;&#1608;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1608;&#1575;&#1602;&#1610; &#1603;&#1585;&#1606;&#1610;&#1578;&#1608;&#1587; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1591;&#1610;&#1576; &#1587;&#1576;&#1578;&#1610;&#1605;&#1608;&#1587; &#1587;&#1608;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610;&#1608;&#1587; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1571;&#1589;&#1576;&#1581; &#1581;&#1601;&#1610;&#1583;&#1607; &#1575;&#1605;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1591;&#1608;&#1585;&#1575; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1585;&#1608;&#1605;&#1575; &#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607;&#1575; .) herefore he was amazigh. but that is no problem .Aziri 16:11, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ibn Khaldun said he was not only Arabic-speaking, but of Arab descent, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica: and the Encyclopedia Iranica:. - Mustafaa 21:14, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Certainly Afer would have indicated Amazigh origins, but his father's name was Publius Septimius Geta. - Mustafaa 21:22, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Shafiq article you link to doesn't offer any evidence for Tertullian being Berber, he just asserts it. I think Tertullian may ver possibly have been Berber, but thinking so isn't the same as knowing. I'm not sure what you're saying about Vibia Perpetua, but I read the account of her martyrdom and didn't see any indication as to her ethnicity. - Mustafaa 21:27, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

the reason is not because you the truth want, but because i told for them (peopel) that ibn khaldun and averroes were not arabs. you diden't even see in the artikel aboud apleuis and you did say that he was probably not a berber. so there is a onother reason. afer is the name of the father of grootfather of septimus severus, and you have the enough links. and tirtullian was a berber same us the links and chafik sayed. the name of vibia perpitua was a latin name, so not punic. and de source that about vibia spoked told that a berber women was arrested. so there is no reason to say that she was a punic. but that is not a problem. Aziri 14:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Averroes I haven't looked into yet, but for Ibn Khaldun I've seen two sources that say he was not just an Arab, but specifically South Arabian - as I pointed out. Who claims he was a Berber? Here are two sources that say Septimius Severus was Punic: lectures/remp/ss1/1.%20Septimius%20Severus.PPT,. Septimius Severus's family is listed in Historia Augusta, and it says nothing about his grandfather being "Afer", so where is your claim coming from? As for Vibia Perpetua, this is the original source - it doesn't mention "Berber" once, so what are you talking about? Have you even read any of these? - Mustafaa 18:56, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You give two links supporting your claim that Septimius Severus was Berber; one is about Terence, who was no relation to Septimius Severus (though Terence was Berber), and the other just says: Afer: Overgrote oom van Septium de Strenge, Romeins heerser afkomstig uit Tripoli, Lybie. Betekent de Afrikaan. In fact, it was his uncle's name that was Aper, and considering they don't even spell Septimius properly or get his home town's name right, I can't place much confidence in that source in any case. - Mustafaa 20:34, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

okke, they were punic, and macrinus also (you didn't see it) and augustinus and all of them. but ibn khaldun and averroes were not arab. Aziri 10:32, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, Macrinus was Berber. He was from Cherchell, and the Roman authors specifically mention that he had a pierced ear, in accordance with Numidian custom. Augustine spoke Punic, but his mother's name was Berber. - Mustafaa 04:46, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

oeh, that is great.Aziri 10:07, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

the word "berber" is a shield name, and the correct name is Imazighen .Aziri 14:23, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"the arab gouvernement in morocco saied there is -+ 46 % of berber in morocco" - when and where did it say that? I'd love to hear that finally someone had done an accurate count, but you have to give the exact source (what book? what date? better yet, what link?)  35% is from the Ethnologue, and 50% is from Prof. Basset. - Mustafaa 19:49, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

okke, i don't find a link for that, but i know that the moroccan governement did claim that there are 60 % of the berber in Morocco ( 1960) and more late did it claim that now there are 46 % of the berber in Morocco ,but that is just a counterfeiting, the most population are berber-speaking (see the interview witk Karle prasse , and read also for Harry stroomer (they are not berber) .Aziri 12:33, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I've added the Prasse quote. As for the government figures, tell me when you find the exact source. - Mustafaa 20:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * You still haven't said who claims that Morocco is 80% Berber. If you don't provide a source for that figure, I will remove it. - Mustafaa 18:20, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"...We beschouwen Marokko als voor tachtig procent Berbers. Met aanhoudende politieke druk willen we daar erkenning voor krijgen. Marokko is Berbers én ook Arabisch, maar vooral Berbers...." source : http://www.syphax.nl/dossiers/trouw.html Aziri 11:05, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I don't necessarily believe Muhammad Chafik, but at least he has academic credentials. - Mustafaa 18:09, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

it is very bad if you believe that there are 35 % of the berber in morocco because basset did say it. but not if any body saied that there are 80% in morocco.Aziri 14:16, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Basset said about 50%, not 35%. - Mustafaa 18:54, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is to use the most common name that a person or thing is known by to English speakers. Nobody knows what "Imazighen " means. I've moved it back. Rick'''K 06:09, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

Rather pathetically, Aziri, you've finally put your complaints into words in the wrong place:


 * "i will tell that the article is not neutral. you can see that the article is about the origin of the berber not about the berber. according to the source of mustapha may be the berber komed from evry where but not from nord africa.

There is one valley, somewhere in East Africa, where the first humans lived. People from that valley can claim that they came only from that valley, maybe. Everyone else on Earth comes from somewhere else - and your (and my) Berber ancestors are no exception.


 * "that is one, secondly may mustapha as enemy that article not writen, he saied that berber are small majority in morocco (because andere basset did say it) but according to the moroccan gouvernement there are -+46 in morocco. the article shouwed the berber as foreinges and that is nor sure..."

Like I said, get the source and I'll put it in; if you can't source it, then be quiet. - Mustafaa 05:14, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

hey, you may be more 'respectfull. i think that i did read it any where in http://www.tawiza.nl/ ,i remember that there was writen : "... according to the gouvernement there are 46 % of the berber in morocco ,but athers think that there are -+ 50 %, and this laest is more right, because there were -+ 65 % of the berber in 1956 or 1960 (i don't remember good). and if i don't find the link that mean not that was never.  but i can late you see this :http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/talengids/images/marokko.jpg 1+ you may be more respectfull.2+you may not writen about the berber . Aziri 13:36, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The map is great, but that doesn't mean anything unless combined with a population density map. As for 2 - I have every intention of continuing to write about the Berbers. They are part of my heritage as well as yours, and I certainly wouldn't want to abandon these articles to ill-informed, ungrammatical, ethnic chauvinist propaganda. - Mustafaa 19:24, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

yes, they are apart of your heritage. i beleave you, i think ven that you are an algeian (i'm not sure). but if you are north african the, late my to say to you that you hate yourself and that is the reason why you hate the berber. that is number one. but your claim about my, is absolutly wrong. you was here before i komed to En. Wiki. and i didn't go to the Fr. wiki because there are not counterfeiters (like you), who say that tifinagh have an arabic or punic origine who clain that the arabs brought the civilisation to north africa who claim who don't say that couscous is a berber speciality , and didn't say that the zirids were berber and also the hammadid ...

but if you are careful against my, then i will go, but you don't have to write about the berber. let others say that the berber live in the sahara in midden east. but i don't accept it ifv any arab write negatif about the berber.Aziri 11:37, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Your fantasy that I hate the Berbers is entirely in your own head. I like Kabyle music, I've learned a fair bit of Kabyle, and some of my relatives are Berber; and I'm proud to have people like Masinissa and al-Ajurrumi and Lalla Fatma n'Soumer in my national heritage. But - unlike you - I don't feel an urge to pretend that Berber history is more ancient and more notable than it actually is, and don't feel that the mere fact that someone was Berber, or Arab, or Vietnamese, or Martian is so important as to deserve a prominent mention in every article. You feel so hurt because Zirid didn't have the word "Berber" in it? Look at Abbasid and tell me if it says that the Abbasids were Arab. You feel so hurt that the article (or, rather, O'Connor) says that Tifinagh may have a Northern Arabic or Punic origin? Look at Arabic alphabet and tell me if it claims that Arabic didn't have an Aramaic origin. You're offended to think that the Berbers came from somewhere other than North Africa? Well, here's a news flash - everybody on this planet comes from somewhere other than North Africa. The problem with you, Aziri, is that you take offense at anything that might even vaguely imply that the myths you've been fed about Tifinagh and Ibn Khaldun and Septimius Severus and all the rest aren't true, and then are willing to accept any source - no matter how obviously ignorant its author - as long as it confirms your view, and reject any source - even the Muqaddimah or Monde Berbere - if it says anything against your view. Take a lesson - I know perfectly well that Nizar Qabbani and Umar ibn al-Khattab were Arabs, but do I feel compelled to go and advertise that fact in the first paragraph of every article? No. - Mustafaa 19:44, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

you can always see the factes such us you want. but if you want to tell me that you not hate the berber, then you tell me that ibn khaldun don't hate the arabs. and alqazwini don't hate the berber. Aziri 10:35, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) ---
 * Ahmed Ouyahia, Prime Minister of Algeria and *Ha-Mim : this peopel are not famous, and were not important . even he is an primer minster he is not special . in morocco are the half of the ministers berber such as (de primer minister : driss jattoe)Aziri 11:09, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You're seriously trying to tell me that "Abu Yaqub Yusuf I" and "Mohamed Choukri" are more famous than the Prime Ministers of Algeria and Morocco? I disagree. - Mustafaa 17:32, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

By way of quantifying that - "Driss Jettou" gets 7,190 hits; "Ahmed Ouyahia" gets 5,920 Google hits; "Mohamed Choukri" only gets 2,100. - Mustafaa 21:27, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

i see that you are not honest, see :M. Choukri : 80 pages but ahmed ouyahya : 11 pages the ministers who did no thing are not needed. abdel arrahman alyoussefi oefqir ahardan... are imazighen. if you want more information about mohamed choukri see : some peopel thougt that he win the nobel price. and furhter his work is "alkhobz alhafi" is translated to japanese and jew and more other languages -+ 47 ; I will happy if you have realy the interisting to write about the berber in the time when every body are looking for the winner to show him self also as winner. but i see that you write more negatif with counterfeting than objectif and honest. Aziri 11:39, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

&#1613;Ministers who did nothing? Prime Minister is not "nothing", even if you don't like them. As to Mohamed Choukri, I had never heard of him before; famous he may be, but not very famous. - Mustafaa 17:46, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

okke, but you cannot examine the facts from your own angles.Aziri 10:49, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Religion
this was in the article about the arab : '''Most, but not all, Arabs are Muslims. Most American Arabs (about two-thirds) are Christian Arabs, particularly from Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon'''

but you fight to write that the berber are molsim. see: predominantly Muslim (but partly Jewish, Christian, and atheist) ethnic group living in northern Africa

you don't want to say that the are christian :http://elguanche.net/. why ? you too find that islam a negatif point ? Aziri 13:39, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Suppose all the Canary Islanders were Guanches, and all of them were Christian. That would still be only 2 million people out of at least 20 million - less than 10%. "predominantly Muslim" is correct; your proposed edits are ungrammatical. - Mustafaa 02:48, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

is that not a good reason to say the berber are olso christian ? and are this moslims ? .Aziri 14:17, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Look up the word "predominantly", Aziri, and come back when you understand it. - Mustafaa 17:24, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

i did understood it just now (if that makes you pleased). but i don't like to see that . okké? .Aziri 11:54, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, not OK. What have you got against brackets? They make the sentence readable. - Mustafaa 16:57, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is the number of non-Muslim Berbers important enough to be so remarked? For example, I am not sure that Berber Jews are to be calculated among Berbers. And, I have some doubts about the Berbericness of Canarians. Certainly Berberic languages are not natively spoken there now. So not many Christians unless you mean Afariqas. -- Error 01:10, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Is the number of non-Muslim Berbers important enough to be so remarked?" In my opinion, no. The Guanches were almost certainly Berber; there is still room for some doubt, but the toponymic evidence is very much in favor. However, I doubt that most Canary Islanders have any Guanche blood; they were nearly wiped out except on a few islands, and the remainder were culturally assimilated. Whether Berber Jews count as Berbers is a debate that frankly I don't want to get into; restoring the original wording of that sentence would suit me fine... - Mustafaa 08:53, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Maghreb
what a theatre is beeing this wikipedia ? how do yoy speak about the histry of the maghreb ? whe is this Maghreb born ? . it is the History of Tamazgha.Aziri 12:35, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Maghreb" is a well-known and widespread English word. "Tamazgha" is not and never has been. "North Africa" is too broad, because it includes Egypt. "Barbary" is archaic. - Mustafaa 16:57, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And Lybie? . and you don't find that maghrib mean just the arab countries without siwa ,Mali, Senegal , Niger, And canary island...? you don't think that Maghreb has never been, and it is disputed ?Aziri 11:09, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No; Senegal has never been Berber land, and the Tuareg expansion into Mali and Niger is fairly recent. - Mustafaa 08:53, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

More to the point, the Maghreb forms a largely coherent historical entity; Mali and Niger - let alone the Canaries - have largely separate histories. - Mustafaa 09:34, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC) Please distinguish between ethnicty and religion, most muslims are not arabs, and there is a large percentage of arabs who are not muslims, berebers aren't necessarily muslims, but that does not mean that they are not berebers, add to that the fact that the name is insulting anyway, and should not be fought over. (by the way, great article, keep up the good work)

Canary Islands
I am no expert but I think that the theses that Guanches were Berbers and all the pre-colonial inhabitants of the Canary Islands were Guanches are not fully established, even if they are accepted by some people. So the allusions to the islands should be nuanced. -- Error 01:10, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

you can ask him :, i'm not expert but i don't claim anything without to know it.Aziri 11:39, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is a pretty wide consensus that the Guanche language was Berber (eg Wolfel), and there are several Tifinagh inscriptions in the Canary Islands. So I wouldn't see that as a major worry, though some do dispute it. - Mustafaa 09:36, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ceuta and Melilla
Should there be mentions to the Berber populations of Ceuta and Melilla or are they too small? -- Error 01:10, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Recent edits
On what basis was the paragraph beginning "They are generally agreed to descend from the Neolithic Capsian culture" deleted? This is not controversial.

"Archaeological and linguistic evidence strongly suggests southwestern Asia as the point from which the ancestors of the Berbers may have begun their migration into North Africa early in the third millennium B.C." - this position is pretty much obsolete as regards the linguistic evidence, which strongly indicates an African origin for Afro-Asiatic, and the archeological evidence is ambiguous at best.

"References to them date from about 3000 BC" - the Egyptians had barely invented writing at that point; can you provide a citation?

"They continued to inhabit the region until the 7th century AD, when the Arabs conquered North Africa and drove many Berber peoples inland to the Atlas Mountains and to areas in and near the Sahara." - actually, they continue to inhabit the region today, and remained by far the predominant ethnic group until the Banu Hilal several centuries later. Berbers have inhabited the Atlas Mountains since pre-Roman times. - Mustafaa 14:49, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)