Talk:Berbers/Archive 2

The ancient Libyans
According to what I know, Berbers were also present in ancient Egypt and maybe even before that time. They were referred to as Libyans. However genetic studies indicate that the Afro-Asiatic language spread out of Africa (probably present-day Sahara) by about 8,000 BC and then back to Africa from the Middle East. Could it have anything to do with the origin of the Berbers? --Orionix 23:54, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the Libyans were well-known to the ancient Egyptians - they conquered them once, in fact. Can you give a reference for these genetic studies? I'm always eager to expand that section. - Mustafaa 15:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, i found a genetic study which says that Berbers, the first inhabitants of North Africa, and Yemenites might share a common origin and were not subject to important genetic drift after their geographic differentiation.

Genetic differentiation of Yemeni people according to rhesus and Gm polymorphisms. --Orionix 23:55, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"the Afro-Asiatic language spread out of Africa (probably present-day Sahara) by about 8,000 BC and then back to Africa from the Middle East." - that sounds plausible to me, although Christopher Ehret says different; it would explain why the northern Afro-Asiatic languages are spoken by white people. Whose study was this? - Mustafaa 15:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I believe the Imazighen came from SW Asia whenever in the Neolithic. Also a recent genetic study reveals an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion in the Neolithic.

A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. --Orionix 23:54, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

However it is important to note that there is no certitude about the origin of the Berbers. --Orionix 23:59, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fair point; although I haven't heard of any reason to doubt they are descendants of the Capsians, beyond that is clearly unconfirmed. I've just made some edits to take your points into account; do they seem adequate? - Mustafaa 00:10, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Mustafaa. Anyway i have some problems with the Capsian theory. Did you hear about the mystery of the Guanche and Canario? Both aboriginal groups are thought to be of Moroccan Berber origin. The Spaniards said they had brown complexion, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair. -- Orionix 00:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, so they say of the Guanche. But that's no surprise; the Berbers of the Rif and Kabylie fit that description perfectly. Indeed, green eyes and red hair are not unheard of among the Kabyles. - Mustafaa 00:48, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think it is a European trait. Quite rare is present-day North Africa (excluding Egypt). How and when this trait got to North Africa is a mystery. However in Egypt for example blond hair is very rare. --Orionix 02:58, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's still pretty common among those groups in North Africa - having lived in Algeria, I've seen a fair amount of it... I think it's a quite early trait; it's most concentrated in some of the most isolated areas, after all. - Mustafaa 03:04, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As for the Capsian theory, if you can cite sources that argue against it I'd be happy to have the article take those into account... - Mustafaa 00:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I believe that the Capsian theory is actually correct. I also assume that the Capsian culture is a continuation of the Ibero-Maurasian. --Orionix 02:58, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A challenge to the Capsian theory
The complex origin of the Berbers has not yet been solved. We know that they are a physically diverse group of people who might date their origin to the Paleolithic.

Genetically they are intermediate between Europeans and sub-Saharans and are therefore cannot be stereotyped as Caucasian. In skin color they vary from fair to very dark.

The only Berbers who can pass for Caucasian are the ones of coastal Maghrib like the Rifians and Kabyles. However many others do not.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204363

The paternal lineage (Y-chromosome) of northwestern Africans is 75% Upper Paleolithic east African in origin:

In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html

It could be that the ancestors of the Berbers were from east Africa. Also the Berber language is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic super-language family which developed in east Africa and spread out to the Near East and then back to Africa through the shores of the red sea.

Also Christopher Ehret says that the language descended from the African coast of the Red Sea.

East Africans carry the paternal haplotype E3b which originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.html

Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup (which originated in west Asia), a group of L3 lineages (which originated in sub-Saharan Africa) characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15180702

It is possible that the early Berbers were actually black Africans and even today many of them are "black" or brown to very dark skinned, especially the Siwa, Haratin and the Touareg of the Sahara. -- Orionix 06:33, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The Haratin are of course black; however, the Tuareg are not only Caucasian, but decidedly racist against the neighboring black populations. The Siwis look pretty standard Mediterranean, judging by photos... but no doubt there is some variety in the population. Ehret thinks Semites and Egyptians originated on the African coast of the Red Sea as well, incidentally. - Mustafaa 17:15, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Gringo300 07:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC) The predominant part of the Berber Y-chromosome seems to have originated in eastern Africa. The haplogroup is E3. Eb32 or E-M81 is Berber specific. Also the maternal subhaplogroup U6 accounts for only about 10% of the maternal lineage in NW Africa while haplogroup L, which is almost entirely sub-Saharan, accounts for about 26%.
 * there is more than one definition of "caucasian". this term can mean people from the caucasus, who speak the group of languages known as caucasian languages.

The study is originally from the Journal Annals of Human Genetics which was fully published on Stromfront (a racist site):

http://www.stormfront.org /whitehistory/pillars.htm

The Afro-Asiatic super-language phylum very likely originated in modern the horn of Africa or the Eastern Sudan.

I don't know what Christopher Ehret says about the Capsian culture. I havn't read his book. However i believe that not all Imazighens were descended from Capsian industry makers. Some were probably descended from ancestral Saharan populations in the Neolithic. -- Orionix 06:33, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I rather suspect many Capsian industry makers were "descended from ancestral Saharan populations in the Neolithic" too. Judging from the genetic studies, there are quite a few layers of population involved... But the great mystery of Afroasiatic is why half its branches are black and half white. - Mustafaa 17:30, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

__________

Reply: All of the branches of the Afro-Asiatic super-language family are located in Africa, where it originated, except Semetic. So the Berber language is actually east African in origin.

Also the patrilineal origin of the Berbers is predominantly from Neolithic east Africa (E3b* haplotype), though their matrilineal origin is predominantly from the Neolithic Near East (L3e haplotype).

U6 very likely originated in Iberia whenever in the Mesolithic, though accounts for only 10% of the Berber maternal lineage. Maternal sub-Saharan gene flow accounts for 26% in NW Africa and is probably the result of quite recent SS gene flow to NW Africa. The rest is very likely from Eurasia.

The question is which played the major role in Berber history, language and culture. Whether it was their male-mediated gene flow or their female-mediated gene flow. -- Orionix 08:21, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Upper Kenyan Capsian
The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region.

Many authors regard these people as physically akin to the Mediterraneans, hence the label of 'Caucasoids' (or European-like) generally attached to them. However, all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in anumber of body proportions.

From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. Now, as mentioned in Chapter 3, the fossil record tells of tall people with long and narrow heads, faces and noses who lived a few thousand years BC in East Africa at such places as Gamble's Cave in the Kenya Rift Valley and at Olduvai in northern Tanzania. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia, as they usually are in literature.

Source:

The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) by Jean Hiernaux, pgs 42-43, 62-63 -- Orionix 18:44, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. I'm not really sure what to make of it, but it's certainly food for thought. - Mustafaa 22:15, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

RE: The book of Jean Hiernaux is relatively old (from 1975) and he is using early anthropological data.

You might be interested in the following new studies, both deconstructing and confirming the east African origin of proto-Afro-Asiatic (also the Imazighen languages). Actually the whole branch has an origin which lies completely in the southeastern Sahara.

1. Pdf from the American journal of human genetics:

http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/nafrica.pdf

2. Pdf from Science journal:

http://www.zoo.ufl.edu/courses/pcb4044/2004Fall/Fire(Science).pdf

-- Orionix 04:12, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't see where either of these say southeastern Sahara... If anything, they both seem to support the East Africa hypothesis. - Mustafaa 12:03, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Origin

 * I have taken out this : This view appears to be supported by a genetic study which concludes that their paternal lineage is probably predominantly east African in origin. This is usually taken to imply that the language was introduced from east Africa mainly by males, maybe with some degree of population change, no earlier than 15,000 years ago.

Nowhere in the external link it says that berbers came frome east africa 15 000 years ago, it says that their E3b (EM81) Y-haplotype is 15 000 years ago, and that the WHOLE E3b haplotype is 25ky ago. Since the "berber" EM81 is closer to the Neolithic (Middle eastener) E-M78, it is safe to say that Berbers came from the near-east and not from ethipia.

Ps : I have not yet begun deleting ;-) --Agurzil 16:08, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I have made some arrangements and adds, the genetical data is now more complete and more clear.--Agurzil 18:58, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Please, If you want to add a comment in the "genetic perspective" that says berbers come directly from the red sea, give a source or it will be removed.--Agurzil 19:02, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The genetics section seems to be rather a mess, and I'm glad you're helping clean it up. The sources seem to be arbitrarily entangled; the source that says Berbers come from East Africa was in fact a different paper (now fixed), and I have no idea what paper claims that Berber mtDNA is Middle Eastern - does anybody? - Mustafaa 01:27, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pictures of Berbers
someone put a picture of "typical northern berber", northern berber is ambiguous, it could be a Rifain as it could be a mozabite, and we perfectly know that these two ethnics do not resemble each other physically.--Agurzil 12:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Good point. But it would be nice to have a little picture gallery somewhere to give people an idea of the range of variation.  People hear that Berbers are indigenous to Africa and they end up assuming that they're black, which is of course usually far from the truth. - Mustafaa 18:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree, Also the better would be to put pictures containing many people not just one per picture.. we'll avoid all the peoples with agendas. --Agurzil 19:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * How do you do to add a comment about the copyright of a picture, I have made one (Distributions of berbers in NW Africa) and I don't want it to be deleted!--Agurzil 19:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * See Image copyright tags. - Mustafaa 22:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * hi mostafa, As you can see, I have added some pictures and text, I also removed the a part that speaks about the same subject as the one I put: "Subdivision of berbers according to their genotype and phenotype".--Agurzil 09:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)--Agurzil 10:19, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Good stuff! Those pictures make a big difference. - Mustafaa 18:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * When going to the touareg wiki-page, I discovered that they are "west-african"! they appearance might be closer to them but they are not west african! is Dieudoné west african or french? I really doubt... --Agurzil 06:43, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Arabian Admixture
I removed a paragraph from the introduction, Berbers mixed with so many groups yes, like any other people, But that paragraph suggests that Berber-speaking groups like kabyles or tuaregs have at least 30% arab blood! those groups have more european or subsaharan input (depending on the ethnic) than saoudian blood!--Agurzil 07:05, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

i HAVE heard that there has been a lot of interbreeding between arabs and berbers. this makes sense because there are large numbers of both arabs and berbers in north africa. Gringo300 07:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Tamazgha, Maghreb...etc VS Northwest Africa
Maghreb does not sound very encyclopedic and is restricted in time (Roughly from the middle age untill now). Also, it is Arabocentrist and excludes culturally the Berbers (Maghrebi is an arab dialect) from Northwest Africa.

To summarize the thing: Berbers existed in the "maghreb" long before the "maghreb" did exist.--Agurzil 19:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

However, most North-West Africans are Arabic-speaking so the use of name "Maghreb" is obvious.

Genetic Language
Is there another on Wikipedia, or an external link, that we could put in the beginning of the genetics section? I have very little background in this area and therefore can make almost no sense of what I'm reading, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Maybe we could help us non-geneticists out by adding a link to a cursory introduction so these facts can be more meaningful? Thanks. Billy P 15:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Nomenclature
Could someone with more expertise address the definitions, differences, and political correctness of the Blue Berber, Brown Berber, etc. nomenclature? --Anne M. Daniels


 * I'm afraid I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate?  It sounds interesting. - Mustafaa 00:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I really don't know that much, which is why I'd like someone else to say more. However, I've heard different groups referred to as Blue Berber or Brown Berber, especially in the context of Morocco.  I think these are fairly commonly used terms, but I'm unsure of the history and technical usage of them. --Anne M. Daniels 02:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing "Blue Berber" would be the so-called "Blue Men" of the Sahara, tribes who habitually wear indigo-dyed clothes which rub off on the skin. Google rather suggests that "Brown Berber" is some kind of a sewing-related technical term. - Mustafaa 23:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The articles Maghreb and Maghrib seem to suggest that the former describes the geographic region while the latter is a more general term coming from the root ghuroob. However, this article uses the latter in the context of the region. (I noticed the objection to "Maghreb" vs. Northwest Africa in the comments above, but wouldn't that equally well apply to "Maghrib" too?) In other words, either this article, or the two above, need(s) a correction, but I don't know which one(s) :) rajneesh 20:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"whats the big mystery"
its really no mystery the berbers are some 81% african simple as that some whites and arabs came down breed with them but its as simple as that what so hard to understand y the "mysterious mystery",just as some mediterranians have darker skin and curly to kinky hair theyre part black the human populations have never been seperated for very long and have always intermixed and changed as a result of migration,some cultures developed certain technologies as a nessecity to adapt to their environment but essentially people possess very slight diffrences beneath the superficial appearence.

What´s your point ?
 * The same writer added "Berber North Africans are all of Negroid origin" to Negroid, and it's still there. He's pushed this viewpoint in a number of articles including Caucasoid.--JWB 18:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see it anymore, neither in Negroid nor in Caucasoid. &mdash; mark &#9998; 19:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Germanic mixture
Didn't the Vandals and/or Visigoths intermingle with the North African population after 410 A.D.?


 * those are considered to be east germanic peoples. would "intermingle' in this case mean interbreed? possibly via rape?

i'll have to do some research on this. Gringo300 07:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)