Talk:Berig

Untitled
Berig is his own person who is only briefly mentioned by Jordanes


 * I totally agree. It is ludicrous to quote archeologists in this context. Berig would have been Stone Age. /Pieter Kuiper 21:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You appear to read Jordanes literally, but it does not give you the right to remove referenced information.--Berig 12:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed a reference that is equally irrelevant to Jordanes' Berig as references about excavations in South-America or academic treatises on how to make chocolate cake. It is User:Berig's burden to establish relevance. Is the connection with Berig even made in this German archeological reference? Or is it just an editor's own synthesis, WP:SYN? /Pieter Kuiper 12:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are shifting the burden of evidence again. Have you read the referenced book?--Berig 12:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It must be an obscure book, no university library in Sweden has it (only Vitterhetsakademin). /Pieter Kuiper 12:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope that your idea of what is "obscure" does not reflect your view of what is "not readily accessible". A book that appears in a dozen Swedish libraries is considered to be "not readily accessible" to you, while a book at Vitterhetsakademin "must be obscure" to you. When I wrote my Ph D dissertation, I frequently went to the library to have long distance loans, and I hope that you are familiar with the procedure.--Berig 12:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Madison Grant's map


This map is a perfect illustration of the intellectual history that Cassiodorus' fictional character Berig has given rise to. Jordanes says Berig was 1940 BC. Madison Grant drew his 'diachronic' map for the period 1800-100 BC. This map is referenced and detailed. It shows Goths in the Vistula Basin. It shows the Sarmatians, the Scyths, the Massagetae, you name it. It is the perfect illustration for the concept of Berig as an 'intellectual' idea. /Pieter Kuiper 18:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Your racist map is just as irrelevant here as it would be in the articles Saxons and Massagetae. Why don't you add the map in those articles as well? You will be reverted until you have given credible reasons for adding the map here, and answered my question.--Berig 19:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please explain: what is racist in this map? This map is the perfect illustration for Jordanes story about Berig's migration from Scandza to the Vistula Basin around 1900 BC. It is much to be preferred over the other map. That map is about archeology of a period far more recent than Jordanes' Berig. And that map is not sourced; how can we know the author was not a racist too? /Pieter Kuiper 20:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Madison Grant was not a historian. He was a eugenicist whose works were based on pseudoscience and racism. His map has absolutely no reliability as a historical source. It has relevance only in the article on Grant's writings as an illustration of his ideas. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I would point out that here Pieter acknowledges that the Grant map is pseudoscience. His enthusiasm for including it in this article is a product of his contempt for the article's content. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The passages about the Wielbark culture in this article and that unreferenced map have absolutely nothing to do with Berig, but Madison Grant's map is highly relevant. Parts of this pseudoscientific map are clearly based om Jordanes tales in the Getica. Specifically, the dating of the period (from 1800 BC) refers to Jordanes' date for Berig's emigration from Scandza. Also drawing the word "Goths" near the Vistula delta is based on Jordanes. /Pieter Kuiper 14:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Your enthusiasm for this map is getting disturbing. And your belief that it is "clearly based" on Jordanes has no merit whatsoever; it is pure original research. Please review Wikipedia policies before engaging in lengthy edit wars. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Your being this disturbed (incoherence, shouting) was slightly amusing. Now you are just embarassing yourself in your edit war to censor away the better of these two similar-looking maps. I obviously touched a raw nerve somewhere. How revealing. /Pieter Kuiper 16:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you (Pieter Kuiper) are in violation of WP:No personal attacks. I think Briangotts is behaving with an angel's patience towards you. Moreoever, I can't see *any* similarity between the maps.--Berig 16:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One map is appropriate in this article, and the other is not. The Grant map is appropriate in an article about Grant. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 19:49, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

map is all wrong
Lots of things are mislabelled. I'll replace it with a better map. Y-barton (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)