Talk:Berliner Weisse/Archive 1

"Berliner Weiße" can be spelled either way, although the correct way would be with a "ß". Something different though: this type of beer is made with a mixture of top-fermenting yeasts and lactic acid bacterias, that is where the sour taste comes from... It is mentioned in the German wikipedia, not in the English one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andi diver (talk • contribs) 20:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Note
This should stay as Berliner Weisse in English wikipedia. Justinc 23:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) Request for comment answer: B is not an English letter. It should be Weisse. I think there should be mention of (WeiBe, in German) because some people read and speak German. Just pretend the guy is Japanese or Russian. If so, people would write Weiss then the Japanese or Cyrillic spelling. In the Putin or Stalins article, isn't their names in English, not Russian?Plumbing 03:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Images
Here are images of the Red and Green Varieties. http://www.washjeff.edu/capl/category_list.asp?cat=sub&id=20 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.81.118 (talk • contribs)

Spelling
Berliner Weisse is spelled "Weisse" in German, too. If you don't believe me go and look here:

http://www.berliner-kindl.de/

This is one of the last breweries that makes Berliner Weisse and they spell it "Weisse" on the label. The sz character ia any case NO LONGER OFFICIALLY EXISTS IN GERMAN AT ALL. It was phased out in the last spelling reform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patto1ro (talk • contribs)
 * The sz character is still part of the German writing system and has not been phased out in the last spelling reform. Plz inform yourself correctly before writing stuff like that. I did German studies in my undergrad, but if there is any doubt left, just check the official website of the Chancellor or the Bundestag. You will find many sz characters there. Cheers, Enrico
 * Well its still spelled like that on the German Wikipedia and I think its safe to assume they know how to spell there, so I think a mention is fine. pschemp | talk 09:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Just look and see how the brewery spells it on the label. I think we can trust them to have got the spelling right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patto1ro (talk • contribs)
 * the brewery may just want to be different. If it isn't spelled that way in German, why does the German wikipedia do it? pschemp | talk 21:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, if you are German and would have listened at school when they tried to teach you about the "substantiviertes Adjektiv", you might know that the spelling of such a noun will follow the spelling of the adjective. So, if "weisse" is an adjective like in "die weisse Rose", as a noun it will be spelt "die Weisse", even under the "old" way of spelling (before the "Rechtschreibreform"). Don't assume that whoever has done the entry in the German Wikipedia actually has listened what he/she has been taught all these years ago at school...

19 October 2006 I thought we had already been through this discussion about the spelling of Weisse. So here is a quote from "Die Biere Deutschlands", 1988 by Dietrich Höllhuber and Wolgang Kaul in a chapter (page 340) entittled "Berlin: Berliner Weisse und jede Menge Pils" . . .. "Heute is die Berliner Weisse ein Schankbier." . . ..

It's a serious German book on beer published by Verlag Hans Carl, a brewing specia;ist. I find it hard to argue with the spelling the brewing industry itself uses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patto1ro (talk • contribs)

What you are missing here, is that people keep coming by and changing every single sse into ß and even moving the page to the other spelling. In order to *prevent* that, I removed all of the ß except that one, so people won't be so tempted to do that. That being said I find it hard to argue with the thousands of Germans over at de.wiki who use the ß. Why don't you go post your question over there and see what answer you get. I'd guess though that you won't like the answer. Additionally it is not good wiki etiquette to keep changing something to your version until a discussion has been closed so I'd ask that you stop doing so until a definitive answer is found. Last, please sign your comments with 4 tildes ( ~ ) as that is polite wikietiquette. pschemp | talk 01:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought the succint explanation from my wife (a native German speaker) of why the spelling was Weisse according to the rules of German grammar had rather closed the argument. Especially as there had been no reply to it.

I will ask my wife to explain their mistake to the German site. She hates seeing incorrect spelling and grammar. 4 tildes ( ~ ) 03:45, 20 October 2006 (Ourtime)
 * great. let me know what they say. and you just type the tildes without any around them. You copied and pasted them and it has formatting there so it wouldn't show a signiture when I typed it. You have to type them plain. pschemp | talk 01:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The Answer
German spelling reform did change ß to ss in some cases, like after short vowels ß became ss but not in this case. If there is a diphtong before the ß, "ss" is never correct nor is it when the vowel is long. Therefore, it is correct to say that it is spelled Berliner Weiße in Germany. (Though not in Switzerland where ß is not used.) pschemp | talk 17:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

All three Berlin breweries still producing Berliner Weisse spell it "Weisse":

http://www.radeberger-gruppe.de/cms/startordner/marken/91.html http://www.berliner-buergerbraeu.de/Brauspezialitaten/Berliner-WeisseHimbeer.php http://www.schultheiss.de/produkte/mix_weisse/index.php

Surely they must be right? Patto1ro 11:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I´m very confused. In the page from the Deutsche Brauer Bund that I added as a reference

http://www.brauer-bund.de/bierfans/sorten/berliner.htm

I notice that they use both spellings within the space of a few lines. If they can´t decide which is the correct spelling what chance have we? I´ve changed my mins and now agree that it is reasonable enough to mention the spelling Weiße. Though perhaps, given the evidence of the use of both variations in Germany, it might be more accurate to say "sometimes spelled Berliner Weiße in Germany".Patto1ro 10:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC) Not to mention that the article at the German Wikipedia is at "Berliner Weiße". number29 (Talk) 12:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sweet bajeebus, the gramatically correct spelling is "Weiße". Even the dudes over at the Korean(!) wikipedia got that right.... number29  (Talk) 08:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, my wife, who is German disagrees. She insists in this case Weisse is gramatically correct.Patto1ro 10:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me whip out the Duden for your wife: W ei |ße, die; -, -n; ↑R 5ff. (Bierart; auch für ein Glas Weißbier).
 * Unless someone comes up with a damn good reason not to do so, I'm going to move the page. number29  (Talk) 16:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the photograph used as illustration - where the glass clearly says "Weisse" - undermines the case for "Weiße". Every label I have ever seen also spells it Weisse. I have a bottle of of Berliner Kindl Weisse in front of me at the moment. I can't see an argument for spelling the name differently from the brewers who make it. Are they stupid, illiterate or just perverse? We've also already had this discussion and it was agreed to use Weisse in the article but to mention the alternative spelling "Weiße".Patto1ro 07:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to insist on this: "ss" is an alternative spelling for "ß", not the other way round. Maybe the word "Weiße" is written in capital letters (does your beer bottle by chance look like this?), where it is common to use double s instead of the outdated capital ß. Maybe the breweries use the double s because ß looked crappy in the font that is used. Maybe they think it just looks cool, who knows - but fact is, that the grammatically correct spelling is Weiße, See my quote from the Duden. Check the German Wikipedia. Check the German Wiktionary: weiß, Weiße. number29 (Talk) 13:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but you have no consensus for that move. The brewery spells it Weisse. Alternatively, this is the English wikipedia. Our article about beer is at Beer not Bier because that's the English spelling. To that end, it doesn't matter what the German spelling is, because the English spelling should be used here regardless. pschemp | talk 14:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. There is no such word as Weiße in English, it's a loanword. Therefore there is no English spelling. 2. I have backed up my claim with reliable sources, do the same. number29  (Talk) 14:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've backed up my claims with the picture that is in the article. It is a loan word, but it's long been "englishised" to Weisse in this language. 122,000 Google hits attest to the fact that it exists that way in English. Limit the search to English only hits and you'll find that Weiße only gets 33,000. Even one of the English speaking world's top beer reviewers calls it Weisse . Last, though Weißwurst is the German spelling, and it's clearly a loanword too, the OED (Oxford English Dictionary, paragon of English spelling) spells its Weisswurst. Weisse *is* the English spelling, it is used that way in the language, and there is a precedent for such change in a loanword. pschemp | talk 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm putting a link up on requests for comment. :] number29  (Talk) 15:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine. The MOS also states "For terms in common usage, anglicized spellings are used" in case you are wondering. I understand that you are German and thus Weisse looks very wrong to you, but 1. That's how it's used in English, and 2. That's how the common brewers spell it. RFC link for anyone who is wondering. . pschemp | talk 15:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would suggest not to use ß at all in article titles for the following reasons:
 * It is totally legitimate to use ss instead of ß. It is always done when ß is not available such when using an English typewriter
 * ß is never used in Switzerland
 * ß does not have an uppercase equivalent
 * For the above reasons, it is very probable that a word cannot be found when the ß spelling is used in the search box. Andreas  (T) 19:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I give up on this one until there's a solution about the ß problem. This is way above my head. number29 (Talk) 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems pretty clear to me that this particular page is an English page, and Weiße is spelled Weisse in English. Beyond a token mention of the German spelling at the beginning, I don't think the letter ß should appear anywhere in this article. It doesn't matter if thousands of Germans are using it, because they're all writing in German. 91.176.45.15 (talk) 07:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Previous discussions in WP about ß/ss

 * Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics)
 * Naming conventions (use English)
 * German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Umlaut and ß
 * German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/to do
 * Reference desk archive/Language/July 2006
 * Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 23
 * Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 31
 * Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board
 * Talk:DG Bank building
 * Swiss German
 * Wikipedia talk:Proper names

Article titles with similar controversy
A non-comprehensive list. There must be dozens of others


 * SMS Friedrich der Grosse
 * Meissen and Meissen porcelain
 * Weßling (for some reason the town's name did not follow the spelling reform despite a short e)
 * Riß and Biberach an der Riß (again defying the Spelling reform)
 * Weißenburg-Gunzenhausen
 * Arthur Seyss-Inquart
 * Walter Gross
 * Großer Zapfenstreich
 * Großglockner
 * Strauss and the names listed in this article
 * Wilhelmstraße
 * Straße des 17. Juni
 * Martin Buß
 * Grossmann (with two ns) and the names listed in this article
 * Jürgen Kießling
 * Weissenburg and Weissenburg in Bayern
 * Rudolf Höß
 * Voßstraße
 * Berlin Straßenbahn
 * Rot-Weiß Essen
 * Weiß Kreuz
 * Anschluss
 * Engelbert Dollfuss
 * Carl Friedrich Gauss
 * Andreas (T) 19:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

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