Talk:Bernard Hill

Residence
To the IPs any info added to an article needs a WP:RS. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 18:58, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Death?
There are messages being posted about Bernard Hill's death on social media, including from celebrities who knew him such as Barbara Dickson. There is as yet no confirmation in official media, so I haven't edited it until this happens. TuringBox (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * BBC has now reported his death: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68962192#:~:text=Actor%20Bernard%20Hill%2C%20best%20known,Lord%20of%20the%20Rings%20trilogy. TuringBox (talk) 13:58, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there any cause of death? --Nosehair2200 (talk) 01:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Fiancee - suspected factual error
article currently includes 'At the time of his death, Hill was engaged to a woman named Alison' based on the quoted BBC article, which in turn mentions his agent. With the exception of a trade paper, the rest of the MSM mention Hill's wife Marianna, & google returns no mention of divorce or separation, also, Marianna_Hill refers to marriage. I suspect that this Alison is the fiancee of son Gabriel, who was present at the death & that the agent has been misquoted. Mattymmoo (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Both articles still say "divorced" in the infoboxes. So that ought to be removed in each case? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * that appears to be have been introduced in last 24 hours, solely based on 2 references, BBC article & dutch press agency Bnonews, both mentioning the 'fiancee present at death'. 'Divorce' is not supported by any citation so should be removed. The Marianna Hill page: Spouse divorced in info box, changed in last 24 hours has sole citation https://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/going_out/films/2003/03/bernard_hill.shtml which in turn says married. Mattymmoo (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed references to divorce from both pages (Bernard & Marianna). Reliable sources would be needed for both 'fiancee' & 'divorce'. Mattymmoo (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Many articles are directly quoting from a family statement so I don't see how that's a mistake? It seems to me that Bernard Hill and Marianna Hill were separated (which does NOT confirm they were legally divorced at the time of his death). And this is mentioned by multiple reliable sources, including:
 * New York Times: "Mr. Hill’s survivors include a fiancée, Alison, and a son, Gabriel."
 * CNN: "He was with his fiancée Alison"
 * BBC: "With him at the time were his fiancee Alison and his son Gabriel."
 * Rolling Stone: "He was with his fiancée Alison"
 * Variety: "He was with his fiancée Alison"
 * E News: "the star's fiancée Alison and his son Gabriel were with him at the time"
 * People: "survived by his fiancée Alison"
 * Hollywood Reporter: "His fiancée Alison"
 * New York Daily News: "The actor’s fiancée Alison"
 * Fox News: "his agent said Hill was with his fiancée, Alison, and his son, Gabriel, when he died"

Going off memory, I read the BBC's breaking news article when his death was first reported and it said an official statement was forthcoming. My assumption is that many articles were written before the family's statement was released and simply used what was previously known to the public.

I think his fiancée should be mentioned and we don't have to say he or Marianna were divorced, because we simply don't know the legal status of their marriage. Removing his fiancée goes directly against dozens of RS, and those sources are quoting an official announcement from his family, not rumors. Johndavies837 (talk) 11:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The Guardian here says: "Hill is survived by Gabriel, his son from his marriage to the actor Marianna Schwarzkopf, which ended in divorce...". But maybe they were just copying Wikipedia? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Great job finding this. It not only confirms their divorce, it also mentions he had a second child (Jay, from an earlier relationship) which was never reported. This should be enough evidence to add the divorce, fiancee and his second child. Johndavies837 (talk) 16:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As this article is now linked on Main page, I think we ought to be as accurate as we can. But it's a bit odd that's the only source I can find. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If there is an acceptable WP:RS for divorced, does that not obviate the need to a separate source for "married"? Although that current source already says: "Bernard Hill now lives in Suffolk. He is married with one son, Gabriel." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Also the current BBC source is now over 20 years old. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Many other reliable sources referred to the marriage
 * All of the reports mentioning a fiancee which I read, were reported speech, not direct quotes, & probably came off the same PA feed, so even if the source is reliable, the information is not yet verified, cannot be assessed fully, & should not go into wikipedia directly (the rubric even has a caution on 'repidly changing news'). There have been no direct reports of an engagement, or a divorce, yet wikipedia had 'was engaged to a woman called Alison' & pages of both Marianna & Bernard Hill were immediately updated to show 'spouse - divorced'.  The evidence (for engagement/divorce) is very thin. Unless direct evidence emerges, it is safest to leave it at 'was married to' as this is still accurate. Mattymmoo (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "All of the reports mentioning a fiancee which I read, were reported speech, not direct quotes" - Sorry but that's just not true. Multiple sources (I listed some of them above, including CNN) are directly quoting from a family statement, which said: “He was with his fiancée Alison and his son Gabriel". Johndavies837 (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You missed the point, my statement was true because I had not then read any reports including direct quotes, so thank you for the list, two of which do contain a direct quote, Rolling Stone & CNN. I also read elsewhere that in his apologies for missing the reunion he referred to his partner. So there is evidence for a change in his relationships, but 'Hill is believed to be divorced & have a fiancee called Alison whose existence was revealed in a statement about his death but we do not have any details' is ok for news reporting but really not yet sufficient for an encyclopedia with standards. Mattymmoo (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Wife?
SkyNews [https://news.sky.com/story/bernard-hill-lord-of-the-rings-and-titanic-actor-dies-aged-79-13129852#:~:text=He%20was%20married%20to%20fellow,gentleman%20and%20extremely%20talented%20artist. here] says "He was married to fellow actor Marianna Hill, with whom he shared a son." But there is no mention of any marriage at Marianna Hill. The Sun here has the married for 47 years, together with a 2002 red carpet picture....?? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I removed the mention of the marriage in her article because the source there had no mention of it (it was just about him). Her mother's maiden name was Hill, which seems to be a more likely origin of her name. She worked in the US and only moved to the UK in 1988 (aged 46ish), so it seems unlikely. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've only just read the earlier discussion above. But note that the Guardian article was amended, per the note "This article was amended on 7 May 2024. Bernard Hill did not marry, and his son, Gabriel, came from a relationship with Annabel Turner." Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, that seems or be the more accurate report. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian note is contradicted by the The Times obituary: "He is survived by his wife Marianna Schwarzkopf, an American actress (and cousin of General Norman Schwarzkopf) who appeared in westerns such as El Condor (1970) and High Plains Drifter (1973), and by their son, Gabriel, who followed his father into acting. He is also survived by a daughter, Jay, from a previous relationship with Sue Allen." https://www.thetimes.com/uk/obituaries/article/bernard-hill-obituary-actor-best-known-for-yosser-in-boys-from-the-blackstuff-982zdt0bf Mattymmoo (talk) 15:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... I've done more googling, and although a lot of sources report a marriage to a Marianna Hill, the photos of them as a couple, and son Gabriel, who looks around 8-10 in 2001, don't seem to tally with this person.
 * https://hillplace.blogspot.com/2016/?m  https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/27745730/bernard-hill-son-gabriel-who/amp/=1 Laterthanyouthink (talk) 16:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Errrrm, the Daily Mail (which we can't use) also has a picture here of "Bernard pictured with his wife Marianna Hill at the premier of the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers in 2002". I know they are unreliable, but it's not very likely they just made this up. Also The Daily Telegraph obituary here. Also MEN here. Also IMDb. So am beginning to wonder.... There's also a marriage record at FreeBMD here, in Stockport in 1977, spouse name also Hill? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's very confusing. I have now viewed dozens of photos of the American actress, and zoomed in on the DM photo, also featured elsewhere, and while it could be the same person, her eyes are blueish-green in the DM one and dark brown in all the others, and the eyebrows look different. I just don't know. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, looking at that long interview on the blog I posted above, if you scroll down to 1977 and beyond, her career, activities and later photos just don't seem to match up. Google showed me an X post last night from that blog indicating that they weren't the same person, but I don't have an account and can't find it now. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 23:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Just managed to find the X post on the computer: here: "This article in @TheSun mistakenly states that Bernard Hill's widow Marianna is the Marianna Hill I interviewed on my blog who had a successful Hollywood career in the 60s & 70s. Yes, he was married to a woman named Marianna but it's not the same person. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)