Talk:Bertie Ahern

News of the World
His new column.    Would it fit into this article? Cargoking  talk  10:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If someone can find supporting references it would fit into the controvesy section. Because at least anecdotally I am aware that there is a widespread belief that his decision to write for the NOTW diminishes the office of Taoiseach. This is particularly for the reason that the paper itself is seen as a trashy 'British' tabloid and also because of a perceived anti-Irish bias on the part of the NOTW and its daily sister paper The Sun.  --Gramscis cousinTalkStalk 09:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Practicing Catholic
A citation refering to Ahern being a regular Mass attender was provided and subsequently removed by another editor as inaccurate. The reference to http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fallout-from-bertie-and-celias-long-goodbye-492874.html Fallout from Bertie and Celia's long goodbye)which says that: "This is a man who attends Mass every Saturday night and every day of Lent. That's part of his make-up. He is a devout catholic." I have reinstated the reference accordingly. 21:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.220.194 (talk)


 * As the editor who did the edit in question read the edit summary I wrote revert No ref at link .Nowhere did I say it was inaccurate .The previous editors link didn't work and in fact still doesn't work and only leads to "404 page not found" .Garda40 (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Your statement revert No ref at link shows that you did not read entirely the item described on the link. The link to "Irish Independent" works and the article substantiates the previous editors assertions.
 * How can you state that there is "No ref at link", while at the same time saying that you can't find the page due to 404 error

The link http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fallout-from-bertie-and-celias-long-goodbye-492874.html is valid. 22:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.220.194 (talk)
 * I will point out what I said The previous editors link didn't work  so therefore there is  No ref at link because there is no article at their link . I suggest you click on their version of the link in the article to see how far you can get.
 * I haven't said your link isn't valid and doesn't work because it does work and leads to the article in question .Garda40 (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Garda40 states in a pompous manner "I will point out what I said" !!!
 * Editor Hank7hill's link didn't work'' so you did not check why, just reverted. If you had checked as I did you would have found that editor Hank7hill had the correct URL, but messed up his linking template to it, thus rendering it ineffective. The correct link was described by Hank7hill, but incorrectly set out in his edit.
 * His error in citation was corrected by me without fuss and explained. Your effort was not to improve and correct for an obvious error, but to redline and revert and seek here to justify your failure to spot an elementary mistake by Hank7hill by denying the existence of the reference.  Editing should correct errors not criticise others who do so and your attempts at justification for your slovenly editing is risible. 02:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.220.194 (talk)


 * states in a pompous manner , Editing should correct errors not criticise others who do so and your attempts at justification for your slovenly editing is risible..


 * I've done no criticism of Hank7hill and his link and have even pointed out that your version of the link works.
 * To which your response was throwing around insults and ignoring AGF Garda40 (talk) 06:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

College of Commerce rathmines
Do they have a record of his being a student there? 86.40.208.206 (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Remake
I was thinking of restructuring this article to integrate the criticism section into the main article. Information on Irish governments and their policies seems to be spread across the personnel web pages of different cabinet ministers or TDs. This strategy is to try to combine information on Irish governments into a separate article.

This was the structure I was thinking of going with for this article

1 Early life and career

See also The Ahern Family

2 Early political career

3 Cabinet career

3.1 Minister for Labour

3.1.1 Government of the 25th Dáil

3.1.2 Government of the 26th Dáil

3.2 Minister for Finance

3.2.1Government of the 27th Dáil

3.3 Leader of Fianna Fáil

3.3.1 Government of the 28th Dáil

3.3.2 Government of the 29th Dáil

3.3.3 Government of the 30th Dáil

4 Policies and views

4.1 Self-description of views

4.2 Criticism of other parties and politicians

5 Political commentary

5.1 Payments controversy

5.2 Pay-rises

6 Public image

7 Personel Life

8 Post political career

9 References

10 External links

This is only an idea and would require the creation of multiple new articles. If you have any suggestions, tips or concerns please comment.

(P.S. I've just changed my User account. I attempted to this restructuring of this article in 2008 but abandoned it.) Iirimaa (talk) 20:05, 1 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Could everyone leave the Government of the 25th Dáil and [[Government of the 26th Dáil up while I expand that article.Iirimaa (talk) 17:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Those articles are just lists of cabinet ministers. You'd be better off creating an article called something like Taoiseachship of Bertie Ahern, along the lines of Premiership of Tony Blair. Snappy (talk) 18:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah your right. I deleted the addition. I thought I could combine the content of the different ministers pages to create a page 20th Government of The Republic of Ireland.However the commentary on the individual pages is scant and repetitive when combined. I'm continuing my work on 20th Government of The Republic of Ireland in my user page User:Iirimaa. If I can wikify it I'll use it. Iirimaa (talk) 06:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I Just finished 20th Government of The Republic of Ireland. I'm now starting 21st Government of the Republic of Ireland Iirimaa (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

"Computer scientist"
I see http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/10016/Bertie-Ahern claims Ahern has a degree in computer science. That's a new one; maybe they know something nobody else does? Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 13:00, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Much like his evidence to the Mahon Tribunal, its a load of porkie pies! UCD and LSE have no records of his attendance. Snappy (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But the man himself, as far as I'm aware, has never claimed a computer science degree, and Google turns up nothing useful. So where would EB have got it from? Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 22:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the same publication that in 2010 described the Irish Civil War as a conflict between Catholics in the south and Protestants in the North. If it can't get basic Irish history facts correct, how is it to be trusted on Ahern's educational qualifications? Snappy (talk) 19:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

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Ahern and accountancy
Prior to an edit I made earlier, the article included the following:

''He worked in the Accounts Department of the Mater Hospital, Dublin, but though a self-described accountant, as in a TV interview with Bryan Dobson in 2006 and radio interviews during May 2008, with George Hook, and on his party's website, he never qualified as a member of any accountants' association. The Irish Independent described him as an accounts clerk.''

Ahern's reference to himself as an accountant may very well be intended to mislead, and give the impression of greater authority and expertise than would "accounts clerk", but it's worth bearing in mind that "an accountant" is generally understood to be "someone who works in/ with accounts", and doesn't necessarily carry any connotation of qualifications or level of education. It's simply a descriptor of the type of job someone has.

Even the Wikipedia article makes a clear distinction between "an accountant" (i.e., someone who works in accounts) and QUALIFIED accountants: "Accountants who have demonstrated competency through their professional associations' certification exams are certified to use titles such as Chartered Accountant, Chartered Certified Accountant or Certified Public Accountant." Just because some organisations or companies may draw a clear distinction in 'rank' between accountants proper and their subordinates, accounts clerks (or whatever terminology they might employ), this distinction is by no means universally recognised, and certainly not in common colloquial usage.

The Irish Independent's reference to him as an "accounts clerk" is in the context of a specific time period, prefaced, indeed, by the word "fledgling", and from the context provided, indicating a point in time when he had just started in that work. It wasn't used in any clarificatory sense, or to draw a distinction between the position of "accounts clerk" and Ahern's own statement of having been an "accountant". Take, for example, someone who had a career as a solicitor. An article mentioning the early years of his career could well refer to his time as a "fledgling articled clerk", which mention in no way precludes the fact of his later position as a solicitor.

The statement "he never qualified as a member of any accountants' association" cited no source, which is of dubious encyclopaedic value, particularly in light of what has to be noted to be a fair number of sources indicating the contrary, notwithstanding the accuracy of the information published.

A list of some of these, for reference:
 * Bertie Ahern: Taoiseach and Peacemaker (1998), Ken Whelan and Eugene Masterson, p. 18
 * How Ireland Voted, 2002 (2003), Michael Gallagher et al, p. 251
 * Introducing Ireland: A Critical Guide with Biographies of over 450 leaders (1989), George Eaton, p. 38
 * Hammered by the Irish: How the Pitstop Ploughshares Disabled a U.S. Warplane, with Ireland's Blessing (2008), Harry Browne, p. 26
 * Profiles of People in Power: The World's Government Leaders (2014), Roger East & Richard J. Thomas
 * The Annual Register- A Record of World Events (1997), St Martin's Press, p. 67

The fact that these sources contain reference to Ahern as an accountant (in some cases giving institutions at which he studied the subject) isn't necessarily definitive- indeed, could be entirely incorrect, the perpetuation of an error. BUT, the fact that no published source details this error and corrects it aside from complaints in Irish newspapers' online letters pages does mean that the published sources must carry greater weight by Wikipedia standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.77.47 (talk) 23:20, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

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