Talk:Berwyn Mountain UFO incident

Newspaper article
This article has been cited in the Western Mail:, making it sound like original research. The claims in the article need to be referenced properly. Gareth 09:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. There is not one specific reference in the entire article. Must have been a slow day on the Western Mail newsdesk... Pennywisepeter 09:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the version uploaded in October 2006 was based on original research by Roger Musson of the British Geological Survey, and his technical paper published in 2006 is top of the list of references (unfortunately unavailable online). Dr Musson's version was, I think, fair and balanced but the entry seems to have since been re-edited by the Andy Roberts fan club. IanR.


 * Andy Roberts consulted many documents to reach his conclusions, including documents from the British Geological Survey. Dr Roger Musson oversees these documents and despite Roberts referring to them in his Berwyn musings, Musson has denied to enquirers that such documents exist. On at least one occasion, under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and a following appeal, Musson was forced to hand over documents he had denied existed. He attempted to thwart access to the documents to deny researchers the opportunity to note how Andy Roberts had twisted the evidence to debunk the Berwyn event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.53 (talk) 00:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect main page
The main page claims it's fact, this is a complex event produced by a coincidence involving an earthquake, a meteor shower and poachers lights. It goes on to say, had a space body produced the 3.5 magnitude tremor it would have produced a visible crater. One word: "Tunguska!" The Tunguska event had an earthquake that dwarfed this one and still produced no crater. This is not to say that the objects in either case were space bodies. It could be said that some of the witnesses in both cases described objects that did not conform to more than phenomena. There's no facts! (User: Nosut 12:32, 20 March 2007)

What was reported?
The main page is titled the Berwyn Mountain Ufo Incident but doesn't mention what the witnesses claimed to of seen. At the web sight below you can listen to a witness by the name of Pat Evans, a local nurse. She claimed with her daughters, they saw a glowing orange ball. I think this should be stated on the main page. http://www.thewhyfiles.net/berwyn_mountain_Incident.html (User: Nosut 18:30, 23 March 2007)


 * But then you should also report that the lights she saw have been identified as from poachers: http://www.uk-ufo.org/condign/berwart6.htm Skeptic2 (talk) 11:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Skeptic2, No, UFO fraud Andy Roberts confuses this matter. The "poacher" lights were on Cader Bronwen, whereas what Pat Evans saw was on Cader Berwyn. This fraudulent nonsense was exposed by Scott L. Feltonwhich featured in UFO Matrix Magazine, Vol 1 Issue 4, February 2011 (featured in the magazine as Berwyn Debunkers - Scott Felton answers the critics of the Berwyn Mountains UFO crash): http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/berwyn_debunkers.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.86.114 (talk) 09:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I’m not so sure. It would not be the first time mysterious beams of light have been reported alongside earthquakes. http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF0/083.html I think this should be noted on the main page as an alternative. User: Nosut 11:25, 9/1/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosut (talk • contribs) 11:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Andy Roberts has consistently ignored the testimonies of the so called poachers who freely admit that though out hunting that night, they had in fact left the mountain range long before 9.30pm as their lamp battery had expired. Roberts has ignored this persistently, in order to portray the scenario that the poacher's lamp was the object seen by Pat Evans and two of her daughters. He also moved their position over four miles to place them where the object was; indeed, on a totally different mountain in the Range.


 * He also insists that small lights seen by the Evans' were Police torches. This too is a fabrication and wholly incorrect. Again to create a debunking picture. No Police left their commandeered vehicle to conduct a foot search, nor did they meet with and talk to the 'poachers'. The teenage farmer driver, Huw Lloyd testified to this a thousand times and there is no Police documents anywhere to support Roberts' assertion. Again, the search in the comandeered farm vehicle was above Llandrillo and Roberts moved that event also to the neighbouring mountain to the area of the object.


 * He claims everything happened based on a sketch made by the leader of a four man team from the British Geological Survey. The document is a page of an A5 size sketch book, so shows everything squeezed together. The author of the document clearly shows lines indicating mileages between points, but Roberts ignored those to enhance his scenario. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.53 (talk) 01:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When investigating this Berwyn UFO matter, no one takes Andy Roberts (Andy J. Roberts), David Clarke (Dr. David Clarke), Russ Kellett, or Steven Lumley seriously. UFO fraud Andy Roberts and Dr. Clarke confuses this matter. The "poacher" lights were on Cader Bronwen, whereas what Pat Evans saw was on Cader Berwyn. This fraudulent nonsense was exposed by Scott L. Feltonwhich featured in UFO Matrix Magazine, Vol 1 Issue 4, February 2011 (featured in the magazine as Berwyn Debunkers - Scott Felton answers the critics of the Berwyn Mountains UFO crash): http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/berwyn_debunkers.html . As for Russ Kellett and Steven Lumley. Well, this has been exposed here: http://31788.vws.magma.ca/berwyn/berwyns01_intro.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/index.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/berwyns_summary_felton.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/letters_revisited.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/battle_puffin_island01.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/spaceships_landed.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/downed_ufo_incident.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/the_letter.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/berwyn_lumley_kellett_critique.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/marine_traffic.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/reviews.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/berwyn_ufo_coverup_exposed.html, here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/endorsement.html . You can even contact Scott Felton (Scott L. Felton) here: conwyufogroup@btinternet.com or at his youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDsUlpfGsXvJIXOlKSXaijQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.86.114 (talk) 09:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

"The Berwyn Mountain UFO incident?"
"Lets see how many times Pat Evens is mentioned...UM....."Zero!" And now lets see how many times the author "Andy J. Roberts".. who saw nothing is mentioned........? "Six times!" "It's easier to miss something that was there, than it is to see something that wasn't. Pat Evens saw what she said she saw. (User Nosut 21:30 14/4/07).


 * Several anti-Berwyn UFO writers have ignored Mrs Evans and others have in equal measure deliberately ignored her two daughters present, so as to isolate her and try to discredit what she (they) saw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.53 (talk) 01:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Similar event
With speculation removed what's left is something that has striking similarities to this event: http://www.iris.edu/news/IRISnewsletter/fallnews/senate.html I think this event should be mentioned on the main page for this reason. (User Nosut 1.05 23/12/07).

2-year reversion
Alas the original version of this entry has been vandalized/POV'd to hell... if you want to reinstate it then please provide a better rationale than it's two years old. Skeptic2 (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * No, you have it backwards... reverting 2 years of active editing will take more rationale than "This is now so messed up." The older version you reverted to was more POV and had more spam than the current one anyway.  NJGW (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would very much dispute that. The original version was based on an article by a scientist from the British Geological Survey published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. In other words, it was a factual article by a reputable scientist with a reliable reference, which surely is what Wikipedia (or any reputable reference book) is all about. There are, I agree, a few dodgy references that had subsequently been fixed and which I was about to clean up before you jumped in at a moment's notice. In my view, the only way to fix what had gone wrong with the entry, as you demand, was to go back to the original and start again. You'll be aware on review of the history of this entry that at least one individual and a local special-interest group have written themselves into the story with little in the way of reliable references to back them up. Unfortunately your reversion of my change appears to endorse such behaviour, which is of course the weakness of Wikipedia., Your comments, please. Skeptic2 (talk) 20:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What specifically is wrong with the current version? What happened in between is irrelevant as we are only talking about what exists now.  NJGW (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Andy Roberts is correct about one thing. There was no Berwyn UFO Crash - it was a landing. Pity he had to ruin good research with cock ups like mis-naming Huw Lloyd (Mr Lloyd thinks it was deliberate to avoid legal action for libel), not referencing a 1972 Berwyn Range plane crash (not referenced, because it didn't exist), lying about the 12th of Feb' 1982 military plane crash on the Range (he says it was a top secret Harrier to justify persistent local claims of heavy military presence), it was in fact a single seater trainer plane piloted by a student. It didn't even have a flight recorder on board. To debunk locals about strangers asking questions, he blamed the four man geological team, but boosted their number to six. In fact, he attacks others for allegedly not supplying referenced claims, when his whole write up on the event is littered with unreference claims like 'Farmer Williams'. Which farmer Williams? Which land did he farm? Half the population in that locale is named Williams!


 * He also failed in his 'comprehensive investigation' to recover and consult personal letters by locals written in Welsh recording events, alongwith Police memos scribbled in Welsh. At least one event researcher possesses several of these Welsh documents including entries in a handful of Welsh language literature produced by local churches and chapels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.53 (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * No one takes Roberts seriously. Scott L. Felton has proven him ot be a fraud. This is possibly the best page with the facts of the case: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/index.html and more info in down the left hand bar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.217.214 (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Wrong information
The main page says:"The Berwyn Mountain Incident is the second most well known British "UFO crash", after the Rendlesham Forest Incident". Rendlesham Forest has never been known for any ufo crashes.

(User Nosut 18.51, 06.01.2010)  ((UTC))

Documentary
This documentary should be included on the main page: http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/5593/BBC__Britain_s_Closest_UFO_Encounters___Episode_1/

The eye witnesses from this documentary should also be mentioned on the main page:

Idris Roberts (Retired Postmaster), Adrian Roberts (Ritired Firefighter),Elfed Roberts (Former asst: Chief constable), Glyn Evans (Police officer), Pat Evans (Retired Nurse) and Geraint Edwards (Retired Game Keeper) (User Nosut 23.00, 19.01.2010)  ((UTC))


 * Their is also this segment from a documentary, but it isn't from the one linked above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGxVpQC42oI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.217.214 (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Green and blue ufo
Former assistant chief constable Elfed Roberts reported seeing an object that was green with a blue edge. It should be mentioned these appeare together in the nitrogen spectrum See: http://astro.u-strasbg.fr/~koppen/discharge/ Furthermore, it should also be mentioned that the U.S studied green ufo back in the 1940s under the name project twinkle. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_fireballs#Project_Twinkle

(User Nosut 19.10, 08.02.2010)  ((UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosut (talk • contribs)

comments
I'm adding this comment many decades after the event in 1974, it's now 27 Jan 2011. I detected the earthquake in 1974 many miles north of Liverpool in a costal town called Formby (this is the furthest point north from any other seismic reports). The event was featured on local TV (local interviews, national headlines etc.) and a day later there was a news black out for 3 to 4 days. I was studying for my A-levels at the time and was amazed by the news blackout after so much TV coverage on the first day. I remember talking to my Physics teacher who knew the area very well and he commented that a team of 20 people max could have searched the "hot" area in a day. We also heard the area had been closed off as official investigations were taking place. I can only assume that something highly significant occurred on the mountains that resulted in a news blackout and subsequent cover up. The news blackout was acknowledged as an issue several days later on the BBC news - I believe it was quoted on "John Cravens news round", he's currently on country file - maybe worth an interview again. Since then no news ever emerged about the incident and as I now work in the world of high tech science, IT and life science, I've never heard a wisper of what went on that night in 1974 (or days after). I will endeavor to discover more. - The doc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by thedoccom (talk • contribs)


 * It's more likely that the nuclear detonation detectors went off, hence the intense military examination, media blackouts and general hush-hush, as all are prime indicators of things nuclear, hence tightly controlled and classified. Such an indication would be caused by a meteor exploding over that region, complete with seismic readings, but no radiation. I'd discuss more, but I prefer to remain outside of prison. ;) Wzrd1 (talk) 03:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Come on Skeptipedia - at least include a proper description of the actual UFO incident BEFORE the debunking. "Poacher's Lights" LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.226.160 (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

potential sources removed from the article
This is completely inappropriate for the article, but there may be some things here that could be used for sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  13:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC) NOTE this is for collecting actual potentially usable sources WP:RS NOT a list of every crackpot UFO conspiracy theorist website. Inappropriate additions subject to removal. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  17:02, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Maddison, R., 2006. The 'astronomer from Keele' writes Astronomy & Geophysics, vol 47 no 6, p 8
 * North Wales UFO ‘crash’ is back in the spotlight, by Helen Davies, The Leader, February 8 2011
 * Berwyn Mountains UFO Crash: 40 years on, it's still a mystery, Daily Post, 23 January 2014.
 * Files released on 1974 'Welsh Roswell', BBC, 5 August 2010
 * UFO X files released The Berwyn UFO Incident, by Jennifer Meierhans, Denbighshire Free Press, 18 July 2012
 * Berwyn Mountains “UFO” mystery deepen, Wales Online, 28 December 2010
 * UFO files: 'Welsh Roswell' incident 'only a landslide', by Andrew Hough, The Telegraph, 05 Aug 2010
 * After 36 years the Berwyn Mountains UFO mystery is solved, or is it?, by Jack Malvern, The Times, August 5 2010
 * UFO files from National Archive allow believers to revisit 'Welsh Roswell', The Guardian, August 5th, 2010,
 * Man Breaks Silence Over North Wales UFO, Daily Post, July 2nd, 2008
 * Released files cast light on famous Welsh ‘UFO’ sighting, by Darren Devine, Wales Online, 5 August 2010
 * Police helicopter 'encounter' among UFO reports from Wales, BBC News, 21 June 2013
 * UFO Wales: New X-files shed light on 'alien' sightings, by George Herd, BBC News, 12 July 2012
 * North Wales UFOs will remain a mystery after MoD close its UFO files, by Natalies Jones, Denbighshire Free Press, 17 December 2009 (archived here and here)
 * The Great UFO Cover Up, by Natalie Jones, Denbighshire Free Press, March 4, 2008
 * UFO: what the nurse saw, by Natalie Jones, Denbighshire Free Press, April 13, 2008
 * No doubt about it: police record 13 UFO sightings, by Natalies Jones, Denbighshire Free Press, April 12, 2011
 * Website debunks 'Welsh Roswell' (also written under the title, Spooky ... one of our UFO sightings goes missing.) by Robin Turner and Tryst Williams, Feb 20 2007, Western Mail (archived here, here, and here)
 * Black helicopters circle 'Welsh Roswell' - Eyewitness dismisses MoD cover-up, by Lester Haines, The Register, August 23 2010
 * Nurses's UFO "fright" quashed by MoD, by Darren Devine, Wales Online, August 22 2010

UFO-related TV shows and UFO-related books are mostly sensational and not likely to be reliable, so I've trimmed this list to sources that have a good chance of being be objective and independent of the subject. Any tabloids should be further subtracted from this list. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Who actually saw anything?
"The only people who ever came close to actually seeing the UFO land was a guy called Mike Saville who features in Richard D. Hall's documentary on the event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwVYZ--bcz8), Mike's wife and the parents of the son who farms as a neighbour to Mike Saville, one Llion Pritchard................ The district nurse Pat Evans who is mentioned in the link you supplied (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGxVpQC42oI) saw it whilst on the ground. Mrs Evans and her two accompanying daughters have always been credited with discovering the UFO. With the exception of the Evans family, the Saville's and the Pritchards, not one single person in Llandrillo or any other neighbouring village saw that UFO arrive or land. Everyone else offered up second hand information." - Scott Felton (Scott L. Felton)

Scott is the leading no-nonsese investigator of this incident and his latest writings on the topic can be read here: http://fierycelt.tripod.com/berwynsufo/

The excellent new documentary on the topic with Mr. Felton can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwVYZ--bcz8

And a radio interview with Mr. Felton on this topic can be listen to here in four parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VPNKC-G3M4

The Great Operation Photoflash UFO Hoax Pt 1 25 Jan 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zErH3s0dveo

The Great Operation Photoflash UFO Hoax Pt 1(a) - The Tony Dodd Connection 08/Feb/15.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgLLbSnA9CY

Excellent book (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21198406-link-to-the-stars). I only purchased this book for its two chapters on the Berwyn Mountain Incident of 23rd January 1974 in Wales. Chapter 11 is by Margaret Fry (Margaret-Ellen Fry) and Chapter 12 is by Scott Felton (Scott L. Felton). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.99.24.204 (talk) 15:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, UFO buffs Scott L. Felton and Margaret-Ellen Fry (whose stated purpose is to "prove that not only herself, but people the world over are having contact with extraterrestrial life") aren't independent or objective sources. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * This article is about the UFO incident on the Berwyn range. The only people to actually witness anything Cader Berwyn (outside of “UFO buffs”) are district nurse Pat vans,t he family of Mike Saville, and the parents of Llion and Dewi Pritchard (neighbors of the Saville's). Outside of that, Llion Pritchard is witness to the extensive military presence in the area on that night.


 * “There are two very important facts to do with this event, both of which have at some time or other, been ignored by pro and anti UFO enthusiasts, whenever it suited them. Fact 1 is that regardless of other events on the night of January 23rd 1974, Pat Evans and her two accompanying daughters saw an illuminated object on the slopes of Cader Berwyn or Moel Sych mountains. This latter is a sub-peak of the former. Fact 2 is that where the object was and where the Evans’ were, was several miles from Llandrillo. Although this village is often the focal point for the UFO event, it is in fact, totally unrelated to the UFO in any direct way. That is the cold reality.”


 * Remember, the only people that are NOT “UFO buffs” as you put it that actually witnessed a UFO (not necessarily alien in origin) are district nurse Pat Evans and her two teenage daughters, Mike Saville and his wife, the parents and neighbours of the Savilles, Mr. and Mrs. Pritchard (the parents of the young son Dewi, and of the elder son Llion who witnessed military trucks in the area.). And they witnessed the presence on Cadair Berwyn, nowhere else, and certainly not Cadair Bronwen.


 * It astonishes me that an article can be written about this event and no mention of the only people that are NOT UFO buffs but are the only people that actually saw anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.191.112 (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Wikipedia doesn't concern itself with the quality of witnesses, it's the quality of sources writing about it that matters. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * OK, so on that rationale then, no source from "UFO buffs" is suitable, even if they have statements by such people, and are published by proper international book publishers and magazines and are verifiable. That is fine I suppose. But what about international television networks that have video interviews of these people in documentaries making these very same statements? These networks and their documentaries are suitable for other articles on Wikipedia. If this isn't suitable, then what is, and on what basis can an article on the Berwyn UFO incident be acceptable to Wikpedia when the verifiable sources for the actual siting by the only witnesses are not acceptable? If you don't have these then the article has nothing, with no sources, and it should be renamed to the Berwyn Mountain tremor/explosion incident as that is all that is verifiable from sources that are acceptable from editors depending on the article in question. Their appears to be no conformity with regard to sources and what is acceptable (despite what is written under wiki standards, so don't refer me to the link as I know it off by heart) is down to the preference of the senior editors at the time. This is a genuine question. And that link on Jellycast refers to Margaret-Ellen Fry and not to Scott L. Felton. Is Jellycast a reliable source?


 * UFO buffs making claims in an interview on the BBC are still just UFO buffs making claims. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  14:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I have not mentioned the BBC or UFO buffs. I have mentioned direct independent witnesses. Sure, but Evans, Saville, etc. are not UFO buffs. And without them then this isn't a "Berwyn Mountain UFO Incident" article (as no one else saw a UFO (again, not nessesarily alien)) but a "Berwyn Mountain tremor/explosion Incident" article. Again, Jellycast seems to be suitable for your case but not for anything else. If this is a Berwyn UFO article then these witnesses have to be mentioned and sourced. If it isn't a Berwyn UFO incident article, but a tremor/explosion article, then it should be renamed.
 * Apparently I misunderstood your  "But what about international television networks that have video interviews of these people in documentaries making these very same statements? "
 * Yes, the current article is in bad shape. But what it needs is reliable sources discussing how / why this came to be a part of British UFOlogy, and not quotes from people stating "I saw an extraterrestrial". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  15:50, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are mistaken. When I referred to "international television networks" I was referring to the likes of Channel 5 (Britain's Closest Encounters: Berwyn Mountain Mystery, Channel 5, Season 1, Episode 1, July 02, 2008 (UK)), Discovery Channel (UFO: Down To Earth – Reason To Believe, Discovery Channel, Season 1, Episode 1, December 29 1997 (U.S.), May 09 1999 (International)), and National Geographic (UFO UK: New Evidence, National Geographic, March 14 2011 (UK)). Outside of that is the documentary, The Berwyn UFO Cover Up : Exposed, Richplanet, 2011. Released Saturday 6th August 2011 at the Leeds Exopolitics Expo. Also released via Blip TV.


 * So no mention of the BBC. I only referred to those I gave as an example of sources (networks suitable for other articles) in the documentaries I supplied which have now been removed.


 * And, I give no example of "quotes from people stating "I saw an extraterrestrial"". Not one of the people that actually saw anything on Cadair Berwyn that night have said that it was extraterrestrial at all, and none of them are "UFO buffs".


 * So, without using the documentaries, or books which quote these people, then you actually have nothing for a UFO (not alien, just unidentified) claim by anyone that actually saw it. What is used is nonsense about a crash, retrievals, alien bodies, etc. This is all nonsense by fantasists and disinformation agents. As I state above, the only people that actually witnessed a UFO (not necessarily alien in origin) are district nurse Pat Evans and her two teenage daughters, Mike Saville and his wife, the parents and neighbours of the Savilles, Mr. and Mrs. Pritchard (the parents of the young son Dewi, and of the elder son Llion who witnessed military trucks in the area.). And they witnessed the presence on Cadair Berwyn, nowhere else, and certainly not Cadair Bronwen.

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Are we joking?
Wiki purists probably will delet this, but anyway... here i go. I dont want to be rude, but this is an ultra pro-government view. The nurse and other testimonies speak clearly of an object. They are even not mentioned ( obscured?). I could change something but allways there is a technic trick to deny changes. This adds points to conspiracy markets. It is not so dificult to include balance and open, complementary views. --81.39.50.38 (talk) 22:26, 27 October 2018 (UTC)