Talk:Beta Upsilon Chi/Archive 1

Wikification?

 * In compliance. This article is substantially in compliance with Wikipedia's guide to layout and policy on Wikification. Diezba 03:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Island Party article
It seems to me that someone needs to write a Island Party article. (it is linked in the BYX article, but goes nowhere) Anyone up to the task? --Keylay31 05:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The KYX-Editor Strikes Again
But this time, we're going to go ahead and try to find some compromise language. You can't deny that KYX was influenced by BYX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diezba (talk • contribs) 18:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Have we come to a conclusion about this subject?--Keylay31 05:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Keeping Under Christ emerged from BYX
Despite someone's efforts to remove the information from the BYX and KYX entries about the origins of KYX, those origins are accurate, conform to the NPOV policy, and should be included for the information of the reader. The information can be corroborated by officials at both BYX and KYX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diezba (talk • contribs) 06:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Once again...please show me the information you got from any Kappa Chi official and please give us their names so they can be corrected! Jczup 01:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)jczup


 * The above information was posted way back at the beginning of June when we first started arguing over this stuff. I'm going to headquarters this weekend and will attempt to show you my information. Thanks.  Diezba 23:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, what were the results since I checked with our headquarters and nothing was on record. Thanks! 156.33.18.196 18:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)jczup

1st in Oklahoma ?
First Christian fraternity in Oklahoma is disputable. Sigma Theta has had chapter in Oklahoma since 1988. Sdwagers 23:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Response
Perhaps, but is Sigma Theta a national fraternity? I believe that is the understanding that the "Trivia" fact is trying to portray. Certainly there are local Christian fraternities all over the place, but BYX was the first national one to colonize there. Diezba 00:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Response
Sigma Theta Epsilon has been a national fraternity since incorporation in 1925 (though name changes have occured). Even at lowest chapter numbers, STE has had a visible presence in OH, WV and OK. STE was certainly not just a "local" fraternity to the degree that you may be suggesting. The yearly National Conclave of Chapters has been held continously every year, well before the founding of BYX in the late 20th century.

For your reference, we had chapters in Oklahoma, well before BYX's creation. Tau : University of Oklahoma  (1949-68)

Epsilon, Beta Alpha : Oklahoma City University 1950-54; attempt at reactivation in 1957) (1988-2006)

Psi :     Southwestern State College (nka Southwestern Oklahoma State University)1955-57)

Beta Zeta : Northeastern State University(2002-present)

No offense, (and none taken but please check your facts before laying claim to such trivia. I am happy to work together with you to verify any as I the STE national vice-president.  (:  Sdwagers 17:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry Diezba 16:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * hey.. no problem. Sdwagers 23:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Kappa Upsilon Chi references Please cite with legitimate links the comments you make about KYX. Thank You and God Bless. ~jczup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.59.97.40 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Kappa Upsilon Chi references
Hi, after attending the Fifth Annual Leadership Summit and attending a Question and Answer session with our Founding Father, Tyler Beard, I had the opportunity to clear up the mistakes. Sigma Phi Lambda served for our inspiration after they founded on Texas Tech University. Three men tried to rush Sigma Phi Lambda when there was no male alternative. One of the founders of Kappa Upsilon Chi was an initiate in Phi Gamma Delta, a social GLO for men, and sat with the other three men and decided first to look around. They looked at Alpha Gamma Omega, Beta Upsilon Chi, Alpha Nu Omega. All three of these organizations had relatively long colonization timelines and therefore since some of the men were graduating, the decision was made to found Kappa Chi at TTU. If you would like to further argue this notion, please present factual evidence, not theories or drawn conclutions to support your writings.

If you would like to discuss this with our national board of directors, our founding fathers or anyone else in the organization, please feel free to contact me by e-mail at jczup@ufl.edu and I will be happy to redirect you to the appropriate sources.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jczup (talk • contribs) 16:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Image of Executive Director
Anyone have an image of the executive director that isn't going to get deleted by those copyright hounds? ;-) Keylay31 hablame 08:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

KYX - Inspiration for New Fraternities
Ok, we have been editing back and forth for 2 weeks now. It is clear we will not come to a simple consensus by editing. I suggest we get a third, un-biased opinion. I will copy all discussions from my talk page, and ask for mediation.


 * Unless you can show me some evidence from a non-BYX site that Kappa Chi was influenced by BYX. Do not put it up here again.  Thank You.  - wikipedia user: jczup


 * The paragraph you are referencing is this:


 * After looking at BYX and considering the organization, in 1993, Kappa Upsilon Chi was founded by men who led Christian ministries and were members of Phi Gamma Delta social fraternity at Texas Tech. Like BYX, the the fraternal organization sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time.


 * I in no way believe that this is biased and is not grounds for deletion. You yourself have admitted these facts.


 * Quote: "Hi, after attending the Fifth Annual Leadership Summit and attending a Question and Answer session with our Founding Father, Tyler Beard, I had the opportunity to clear up the mistakes. Sigma Phi Lambda served for our inspiration after they founded on Texas Tech University. Three men tried to rush Sigma Phi Lambda when there was no male alternative. One of the founders of Kappa Upsilon Chi was an initiate in Phi Gamma Delta, a social GLO for men, and sat with the other three men and decided first to look around. They looked at Alpha Gamma Omega, Beta Upsilon Chi, Alpha Nu Omega. All three of these organizations had relatively long colonization timelines and therefore since some of the men were graduating, the decision was made to found Kappa Chi at TTU. If you would like to further argue this notion, please present factual evidence, not theories or drawn conclutions to support your writings."


 * This conversation has taken place before on the discussion page of the article. Reference:


 * "Despite someone's efforts to remove the information from the BYX and KYX entries about the origins of KYX, those origins are accurate, conform to the NPOV policy, and should be included for the information of the reader. The information can be corroborated by officials at both BYX and KYX."


 * I agree with this statement, and I see no reason for keeping this out. According to the talk page, you were the only one backing up your argument, and I urge you to seek out others. If you would like, we can start this conversation back up, but by your own admission, I think this paragraph (which I worded to be EXTREMELY NPOV) belongs in the article and will revert your deletion as such until we come to a conclusion. I in no way want to be part of an edit war and will look for references. I would also appreciate it if you made your edits while logged into your account, instead of using a random IP address. Thanks. Key lay  03:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Please find an actual piece of evidence that shows this documented from a NPOV source and yes, we'll keep it. If we do keep it I think you should mention all the fraternities and names that Kappa Chi thought about using.  Kappa Chi makes no mention of Delta Alpha Chi or Theta Alpha on its site out of respect for the independence of those organizations even if there affiliation with Kappa Chi did inspire their creation.  While I do work, I can go ahead and mark this for other Kappa Chi's to monitor and make sure things are handled correctly.  Thank you.


 * Be respectful to others and their points of view. This means primarily: Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it. WP:DR Key lay  22:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi My Friend and Christian Brother,


 * I made changes in accordance with factual information from the founding of Kappa Chi. I took the time to contact and find out what happened and do my research.  BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega (America's Oldest National Fraternity), Alpha Nu Omega and Chi Alpha Omega at NCSU were contacted about a chapter.  After looking at them all, they decided to form their own since they knew Greek Ritual and decided to implement it that way.  These are the facts.  Anything else and please do the research and show with documentation.


 * Remember my friend, "be respectful" of people's points of views as well as the facts since this is an encyclopedia and not a BYX Rush Document.


 * May God Bless You Always,


 * ~jczup

In addition, here is your suggested change:


 * After looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega and Chi Alpha Omega initially, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993 as a Chrisitan Fraternity. The group was founded by men who led Christian ministries and were members of Phi Gamma Delta social fraternity. The men sought to start their own fraternity based on their knowledge of Greek ritual and felt a Christian fraternity should include ritual in its practices if it was to reach its goal of bridging the Christian and Greek communities together. They did not see this with other national fraternities such as Beta Upsilon Chi. Today, the national fraternity of Kappa Upsilon Chi has grown to 13 recognized chapters in seven states. Like BYX, Alpha Nu Omega and Chi Alpha Omega, the the fraternal organization sought to be a social alternative for Christian men; however, unlike BYX, Alpha Nu Omega, and Chi Alpha Omega Kappa Chi wanted to bridge the Christian and Greek communities by playing an active role with the Greek communities on the campuses it was apart of.

Here is mine:


 * After initially looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega, and Chi Alpha Omega, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993. The group was founded by men who led Christian ministries and today has grown to 13 chapters in seven states. Like BYX, the the fraternal organization sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time. [7]

Please feel free to view the history of the article, and view comments made as edit summaries. Once again, I will ask you to LOGIN when you are making edits, as you have done so from several different IPs. Thank you.

I ask the third party to view a previous discussion at the top of this talk page in addition to the current discussion. Key lay 22:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I take issue with your obvious non-NPOV statements that BYX and the like do not have ritual nor do we "bridge the Christian and Greek communities by playing an active role with the Greek communities". As noted elsewhere in the article and richly referenced, BYX is often one of the most influential fraternities on the campuses that it is at, and we clearly have ritual, I do not understand either of these statements. Key lay  06:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Third party requests clarification
Please tell me if I correctly understand the dispute. I have a couple of questions. 1. Within the BYX article, the final sentence of Inspiration_for_new_fraternities reads: "Like BYX, the the fraternal organization sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time." Is the dispute over whether or not other Christian fraternities should be listed along with BYX in both sentences?-Euonym 07:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * essentially this dispute is about whether or not the paragraph about KYX should a) belong in the article and b) deserves a quick mention or a long and drawn out history... Key lay 07:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

2. In Beta_Upsilon_Chi#Affiliating_with_local_universities, the article states that "Since its inception in 1985, chapters of Beta Upsilon Chi have chosen not to affiliate with the Interfraternity Council (IFC) at the school where they are established." To an outsider, that makes it sound as if BYX is not a Greek organization, despite its inclusion of Greek ritual. Is this the reason behind the phrasing "bridge the Christian and Greek communities"?-Euonym 07:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * the IFC is not the only greek council. For example, at the university of colorado, there is also a multicultural greek council. All of the participants of both councils are considered fraternities and greek, and does not mean that they do not have greek ritual. BYX still rushes like every fraternity, we have a pledge process, we operate exactly like many fraternities. I personally do not understand the editor's continuance to insist that KYX solved the lack of greek ritual. Key lay  07:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

'Third' opinion
The reference 'History of Beta Upsilon Chi, 1985-2000. Fort Worth, Texas: Beta Upsilon Chi Fraternity, 2000' is not acceptable regarding the 'inspiration of other fraternities to form fraternities in their image' because it is published and written by Beta Upsilon Chi, not a neutral source. User:Pedant 18:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Agreed. -Euonym 23:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The statement that such-and-such fraternity or sorority was 'founded after' Beta Upsilon Chi is not relevant to whether that fraternity or sorority was founded in imitation of or influenced by Beta Upsilon Chi -- this is post hoc ergo propter hoc the logical fallacy that something which comes before caused something which came after. User:Pedant 18:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Agreed. -Euonym 23:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I feel that, for most facts, references for this article need to come from reliable sources outside of Beta Upsilon Chi especially as regards the influence of Beta Upsilon Chi on other groups. User:Pedant]19:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Agreed. Sigma Phi Lambda's Wikipedia article gives explicit, direct credit to BYX as an inspiration.  If that counts as a reliable source, then it's valid to include them in the "Inspiration..." section. -[[User:Euonym|Euonym 23:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)  RE: KYX It seems that one editor (from KYX?) is concerned about giving the impression that BYX was more influential than other Christian fraternities, in terms of KYX's founding. Possible rewrite: After looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega and Chi Alpha Omega initially, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993 as a Chrisitan Fraternity. The group was founded by men who led Christian ministries and were members of Phi Gamma Delta social fraternity.  The remainder of the current paragraph is more appropriate for the KYX article. -Euonym 23:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with this statement, my suggestion for the rewrite is:

After initially looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega, and Chi Alpha Omega, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993. Like these other Christian fraternities, the the fraternal organization sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time. [7]
 * Any suggestions, comments, jokes, slurs? Key lay  07:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (Suggestions and comments, definitely! I don't know you guys well enough for joking, and I hope we're all earnestly avoiding slurs.)
 * While I don't think the BYX article should delve deeply into KYX's origins, I'm still concerned about giving incorrect impressions. I've looked at both this talk page and the KYX article, and it seems misleading to ignore that KYX also had direct traditional (secular) frat ancestry.


 * In this case, I think it's necessary to acknowledge Phi Gamma Delta alongside the Christian frats.
 * Here's my revised suggestion:
 * "After initially looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega, and Chi Alpha Omega, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993. The group was founded by men who led Christian ministries and were members of the Phi Gamma Delta social fraternity. Like other Christian fraternities, KYX sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time. [7]"  -Euonym 10:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

RE: "bridge the Christian and Greek communities" I assume this phrasing refers to BYX's policy to not affiliate with the IfC. If campus convention allows non-IfC frats to be called "Greek", then there is no need to make the distinction here. In any case, KYX-specific details are more appropriately included in KYX's own article. -Euonym 23:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, please see statement above about BYX's "greekness" Key lay 07:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the third party opinions. Phi Gamma Delta was the fraternity which we officially draw our inspiration from.  To clarify, from interviews conducted informally with brothers of BYX from Oklahoma and the University of Texas; BYX's goal is to be more of a men's ministry in developing Christian men.  There was no respect meant to be given to BYX with those comments, we were under the impression this was the image BYX sought.

Kappa Chi intentionally sought to be a bridge between the Christian community and Greek community by offering 1) an outlet for Christian men that still participated heavily in campus activities in order to give men an option and stay Christian 2) to be a positive influence WITH the university's Greek community's.

I know that keylay31 is a University of Colorado BYX member and their chapter just got chartered so I would like to congratulate him but remind him that there are many details that he needs to read on before attempting to write history.

I believe that the third party opinion takes care of the NPOV fight between BYX and KYX. Just as long as it is understood KYX was inspired to be founded by Phi Gamma Delta Social Fraternity as well as Sigma Phi Lambda. So essentially, BYX should be claiming they inspired the founding of DAX at FSU and Theta Alpha at UF and UNF. Because following keylay31's "logic" that would be the most "logical" statement.

We will be imputing this on all of the other fraternities websites as well. BYX needs to be mentioned on the AGO site though since they were the first Christian Fraternity. The idea was around and then BYX adopted the idea, so it needs to be traced back.

As for the statement on Greek Ritual, according to the document regarding the lawsuit at the University of Georgia, the initiation is outlined in the brief. That is a ceremony, not a masonic ritual.

Bottom Line: AGO was the founding father fraternity of the Christian Fraternity movement since they were formed in 1925. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jczup (talk • contribs) 16:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed edit
As per Euonym's suggestion, I agree that Fiji's presence needs to be mentioned alongside the Christian fraternities. I can agree with Euonym on this edit. Yourself?

"After initially looking at BYX, Alpha Gamma Omega, Alpha Nu Omega, and Chi Alpha Omega, four men founded Kappa Upsilon Chi in 1993. The group was founded by men who led Christian ministries and were members of the Phi Gamma Delta social fraternity. Like other Christian fraternities, KYX sought to be a social alternative for Christian men, an option that was only available to women at Texas Tech at that time. [7]"

As for adding mention to AGO's article, I think it is extremely important to note that it was the first Christian frat (if this is true), and to mention what a impact it has had, though as i recall, most fraternities were started as a "christian" fraternity, though not necessarily a means of separating themselves from other fraternities. I think the reason the original author of this included the KYX part in THIS article is to give a basis for the so-called "Texas" movement. And you are correct, BYX's primary mission is to establish brotherhood among its members and to develop its members. I do not however believe that this separates it from other greek organizations. Can you agree on this suggested edit, or do we need to change it a bit more? Key lay 02:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree user:jczup

I think that what is clear is the fact that Kappa Upsilon Chi was not overly influenced by Beta Upsilon Chi. The idea was originally formulated by AGO in 1925 on the West Coast. Several other Christian fraternities were founded in between that 1925 date and the founding of BYX in the mid-1980's. BYX was still but a small organization in the early-1990's when Kappa Upsilon Chi was formed. Likewise, after viewing the official legal documents in the BYX vs University of Georgia case, it does seem that BYX does not have true masonic ritual, but more of a "graduation" of sorts from pledgeship to active brotherhood. Since apparently Kappa Upsilon Chi has a closed meaning, along with its open meaning, and the masonic ritual usually associated with Greek organizations, it more genuinely fits the mold of a "Christian Fraternity" than even does BYX. The influence of Phi Gamma Delta is evident in that, and shows the lack of influence and organization like BYX had over Kappa Upsilon Chi. BYX is very influential in many universities around the nation, and that includes the Greek life at those universities, which is very impressive. Kappa Upsilon Chi and Beta Upsilon Chi, though names similar, have very little similarities when it comes to structure and internal practices.

allsport21 2:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If this issue is settled, kindly remove this post from the Third opinion page. If not, please reformulate and declare the dispute below. Thank you.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 15:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Done, thanks guys! Key lay  01:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Contains biased descriptions?
This article reads like it's been primarily written by BYX members or the like. Its tone does not match what I'd expect from Wikipedia. 69.24.187.216 05:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you please point out some examples, as tagging the entire article does not help us to try to fix this. Also, please try to add your comments to the end of the talk page for future reference. Key lay  21:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to remove the POV tag as this comment was made by a ip account with no previous history edits and no examples to back up his claim of POV on a "Good Article". This however does not mean I disagree with his statement. If anyone sees any problems, please post here or fix them. Thanks! Key lay  06:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

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