Talk:Bethóc

Untitled
This article was a mess! Bethóc (Beathag) is not derived from Beatrix, it's a Scots Gaelic name. She was also not "MacKenneth" -- first of all, "mac" means "son of-" and her father was Malcolm, not Kenneth! The proper form is Beathag inghean ui Mhaoil Choluim, but I kept the name she's best known by. Missi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mississippienne (talk • contribs) 06:38, 21 March 2005 (UTC)

Was Bethoc the mother of Donnchadh?
The various versions of the Chronicle of Scotland records:

Donchath mac Cran Abbatis de Dunkelden et Bethok filia Malcolm mac Kynnet vi. annis regnavit et interfectus est a Maketh mac Fyngel in Bothngouane et sepultus in Yona insula.

[Donchath mac Trini Abbatis de Dunkeld et Bethoc filiae Malcom mac Kinat 6 an. Interfectus a MacBeth mac Finleg in Bothgouananet sep. in Iona.]

[Donchath mac Trim Abbatis de Dunkelden et Bethoch filiae Malcolmi mac Kinoth 6 annis. Interfectus a MacKbeth mac Fiaeleg in Bothgauenan et sepultus in Iona.]

translation:

Duncan son of Cran, abbot of Dunkeld, and Bethoc daughter of Malcolm son of Kenneth reigned 6 years and killed by MacBeth son of Finlay and buried in the Island of Iona

[Dunkan mac Kyrn de Dunkeldy et de Betowe, fitz Malcolme mac Kynech, vi aunz, et fust tue de Macbeth mac Sinley] from Ms. Corpus Christ. Coll. Cant. Scalacronica, Fol, 198. b.

translation:

Duncan son of Cran of Dunkeld and of Bethoc, son of Malcolm son of of Kenneth. 6 year, and was slain by Macbeth mac Finlay.

Matching "... filii Dunecani filii Betoch filii Malcolmi filii Kynath ..." form Cott Faustina A, VIII

or alternatively the Books of Lecan and Ballymote: ... m. Dondchaid m. Mailcolaim m. Cinaeta ... / ... m. Dondchand m. Maelcolaim m. Cinaetha ... respectively.

The same pedigree in Poppleton is " ... M. Donnchada M. Maelcolaim ..."

The Book of Leinster has " ... M. Donnchada [then under in smaller writing and indented (as if a note) 'mac ingeni Mael Choluim'] and the continues as in the normal form M. Cinaeda ....

MacFirbis has "... M. Donnchadh M. Finghin M. Maol Coluim ..."

MS.1467 has "... M. Fionnlug M. Finnginn M. Mailcolaim ..."

O'Clery has "... M. Donnchada M. Fingin M. Mail colaim

(Fínghin is an attested to medival Irish names.)

[Rawlinson B.502 ends at "Máel Coluim M. Cináeda ..."]

The annals have:

CS1039 Donnchadh mac Critain airdri Alban inmatura aetate a suis occisus est.

T1040.1 Donncadh mac Crínan, aird-rí Alban immatura etate a suis occissus est.

U1040.5 Donnchad m. Crinan, rí Alban, a suis occisus est.

How young does it have to be to die 'immature' in medieval Scotland?

Who was the mother of Bethoc ingen Maíl Coluim meic Cináeda?
This part of my family tree is getting quite confusing. I know that Malcolm II is my ancestor, 31 generations back. I have found one reference to a spouse being Edith de Ossory b :962 d: 4/11/1023. I have found two daughters for Malcolm and Edith, being Bethoc and Duxia Doda MacAlpin. I have Duxia marrying Fulbert De Falaise, producing Herleva. I also have Bethoc, marrying Crinan of Dunkeld, producing Duncan I. Both of these offspring, figure in my family tree. Duncan I being 29 generation ancestor and Herleva being 29 generation ancestor as well. Can anyone help. 124.186.5.83 (talk) 05:17, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Maldred
Maldred was not a son of Bethoc. He was a son of Crinan (aka Karl Hundisson) from his first marriage.Freuchie (talk) 17:10, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Tanistry
The text says "Early writers have asserted that Máel Coluim also designated Donnchad as his successor under the rules of tanistry because there were other possible claimants to the throne." This is nonsense and demonstrates that the writer does not understand the term tanistry.

Malcolm II was trying to subvert tanistry and substitute primogeniture, by which Duncan I would succeed. It was precisely the threat posed by tanistry which made Malcolm kill the others who would be in the mix - and this of course, also proves that Macbeth was not his grandson. Freuchie (talk) 10:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)