Talk:Bethlem Royal Hospital/Archive 1

Name of institution
It hardley seems encyclopaedic to refer to Bethlem as "the world's oldest 'madhouse'". Hence the term has been removed. --Lejend 22:19, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Hardly seems accurate to refer to a centuries old institution by the anachronistic name "Psychiatric hospital", so have replaced that with "lunatic asylum". PaulHammond 18:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Err, I really can't see how 'lunatic asylum' is more appropriate and less anachronistic than 'psychiatric hospital'. We are discussing a description for what the hospital is NOW, so while it may have been founded as an asylum, it has evolved into a multi-service hospital and facility, with day patients and others, and a medium secure unit - from its website: "The Bethlem Royal Hospital is one of the main inpatient services run by the Trust. The hospital provides care and treatment for people suffering from mental health problems. As many as 1,700 a year are admitted for treatment, and over 800 members of staff are employed at the hospital." 'Lunatic asylum' is entirely inappropriate, and inaccurate. Martín (saying/doing) 23:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Perfectly acceptable though in discussing its origins and history to describe it as a "lunatic asylum", as neither the term "psychiatric hospital" nor medical treatment of such patients existed at that time (i.e. it was merely a custodial place). I agree though that the introduction and description of the current hospital should only use the term "psychiatric hospital". David Ruben Talk 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * See history of Psychiatric hospital and section specifically on this institution and when term "patient" first used - Psychiatric hospital David Ruben Talk 00:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Psychiatric hospital is not a very appropriate way of describing the place either... Psychiatry is the activity of psychiatrists, doctors who are just one part of the modern multidisciplinary mental health team. There is a great deal more that goes on in mental health services than psychiatry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.105.39 (talk • contribs) 11:38, 17 May 2007

Notable patients
I've removed this entry from the Notable Patients list:


 * Lady Katherine Blickley, tried and convicted for showing signs of witchcraft

I can't find anything about her online, but please add some further information if available. - Vaughan 09:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Initial architect of the New Bethlem Hospital
When Bethlem moved to St. George's Fields, the building was not designed by Sydney Smirke, it was designed by John Gandy, who won the premium offered in July 1810 for the design of the new Bethlem Hospital. Sydney Smirke was not the architect for the hospital until the 1838 redesign, according to his wikipedia entry.

Reference: Survey of London, volume 25, Chapter 9: Bethlem Hospital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RegencyEditor (talk • contribs) 06:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this for real?
"In the 18th century people used to go to Bedlam to stare at the lunatics. For a penny one could peer into their cells, view the freaks of the "show of Bethlehem" and laugh at their antics, generally of a sexual nature or violent fights. Entry was free on the first Tuesday of the month. Visitors were permitted to bring long sticks with which to poke and enrage the inmates. In 1814 alone, there were 96,000 such visits."

This passage isn't cited, and it seems almost too absurd to be true, especially the part about the sticks. I know conditions were bad and mistreatment was common, but actively encouraging and profiting from abuse by outsiders seems beyond the pale even by early-1800s standards. Anyone have an independent source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.176.7.3 (talk) 20:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I know in fiction this is referenced plus or minus the sticks in many works set in that time period. The History Channel and this site http://www.bethlemheritage.org.uk/VisitingBethlem/ does reference people visiting Bedlam with the goal that the visitors would provide money for the facility and that it was viewed as a freak show however no reference to sanctioned use of sticks. Aside from the reference to the sticks and the comment about them coming to see perverts and people fighting which is in pop culture the rest of that statement is accurate. unless we can find a source for this remove what is after 'laugh at their antics'. we should have a Badlam in pop culture if we don't already. Tydoni (talk) 19:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * removed "generally of a sexual nature or violent fights" and

"Visitors were permitted to bring long sticks with which to poke and enrage the inmates." as I could not find a reputable source saying this. if someone else can find a reputable source showing a depiction of this then I will support it being put back in. Tydoni (talk) 21:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Category:Health in Croydon
It isn't in the London Borough of Croydon, It is in the London Borough of Bromley. Why is this cat present? Does it serving the LB Croydon qualify it for said cat? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 22:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Internal clarification: History of Bedlam
It seems odd in paragraph one too say, "Some were allowed to leave, and licensed to beg" and then in paragraph 7 (referred to note 4), say that this is arguable rather than a fact...


 * Agreed. Please sign your posts. FiachraByrne (talk) 17:01, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Hannah Chaplin
The blog of the Bethlem Royal Hospital Archives and Museum at http://bethlemheritage.wordpress.com/tag/john-newton/ states:

"That Hannah Chaplin (1865-1928), mother of the comic actor and film director Charlie Chaplin, was at one time a Bethlem Hospital patient is an established piece of wiki-orthodoxy, but one without any foundation in fact. Since the Hospital’s admission records, complete and comprehensive for the term of Hannah’s life, are held here at the Archives & Museum, we are in a position to be quite certain about this. In the 1890s, poverty forced Hannah and her sons Sydney and Charlie into temporary periods of residence at Renfrew Road Workhouse in Lambeth, an institution which had nothing to do with Bethlem Hospital other than being within sight of its distinctive dome. She later spent time at Cane Hill Hospital and Peckham House, but she was never admitted to Bethlem."

If anyone wishes to persist in the assertion that Hannah was an inmate, then please quote a source that is better than that of the institution's archive.


 * LOL. Please sign your posts. FiachraByrne (talk) 17:01, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of two paragraphs (unsourced)
I've removed the following two unsourced paragraphs from the article.

"Early sixteenth century maps show Bedlam, next to Bishopsgate, as a courtyard with a few stone buildings, a church and a garden. Conditions were consistently dreadful, and the care amounted to little more than restraint. There were 31 patients and the noise was "so hideous, so great; that they are more able to drive a man that hath his wits rather out of them." Violent or dangerous patients were manacled and chained to the floor or wall. Some were allowed to leave, and licensed to beg. Day to day management was in the hands of a Keeper, who received payment for each patient from their parish, livery company, or relatives. In 1598 an inspection showed neglect; the "Great Vault" (cesspit) badly needed emptying, and the kitchen drains needed replacing. There were 20 patients there, one of whom had been there over 25 years."

"Many sources assert that, in 1620, patients of Bethlem banded together and sent a "Petition of the Poor Distracted People in the House of Bedlam (concerned with conditions for inmates)" to the House of Lords. However, the absence of a primary document suggests that this may well be a 'phantom reference'."

Paragraph 1: The description of the buildings is probably accurate. The reference to 31 patients must come from the 1620s when it was overcrowded for a short time. Certainly, the quote is from Donald Lupton in the 1630s - a section of which is including in the article in the section currently called Conditions. Not sure where the reference to being chaining to the wall is from (some patients were of course chained and in some periods such restraint may have been a matter of course). Payments to keepers is already included in main article. In regard to the inspection I can't find a good reference to support the contention that the cesspit needed emptying etc. This may be in Allderidge (1979) or Andrews et al. (1997) but at the moment I only have access to the google books versions of these sources. 1598 Inspection: I have come across a reference to the drains - which I think I can find again; the patient numbers etc is correct and will be readded.

Paragraph 2: This is reported in a number of secondary sources but none of good quality and with no reference to primary sources (so far as I can find anyway).


 * Re paragraph 2 - the petition of 1620 - it seems to derive from O Donoghue . It's currently used by several histories of patient advocacy/rights . Dale Peterson records that such a petition was registered in 1620 but then lost . Anyhow, it's real, so it'll be added back in. But we have no idea of its contents or, really, its authors. FiachraByrne (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

St George's Fields
Cut unreferenced sentence:

"The new building had a remarkable library as an annex which was well frequented. Although the sexes were separated, in the evenings, those capable of appreciating music could dance together in the great ballroom. In the chapel the sexes were separated by a curtain."

FiachraByrne (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Removal of another two paragraphs - one sentence (quote) sourced
Excised the following: "The Hospital became famous and notorious for the brutal ill-treatment meted out to the mentally ill. In 1675 Bedlam moved to new buildings in Moorfields designed by Robert Hooke, outside the City boundary. The playwright Nathaniel Lee was incarcerated there for five years, reporting that: "They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me.""

"The inmates were first called "patients" in 1700, and "curable" and "incurable" wards were opened in 1725-34."

Paragraph 1: First sentence true but needs context and specification. Will add detail for this - mostly derived from Andrews Phd. Second sentence true but unsourced. Will re-add information and cite it properly. Nathaniel Lee quote correctly sourced (but derived from Porter - so might be better to cite him instead). Will add back in but somewhere where it makes sense. Paragraph is collection of non sequiturs as it stands (which might be my fault as I've edited some of the original article out due to repetitions as I've added content.

Paragraph 2: Unsourced. First statement incorrect. Second pretty much correct. Will add back in with sources at appropriate point in the article. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, and typical of your ignorance, the first statement is correct. You've confused the reference to "patients" by the Privy Council with the Hospital's own nomenclature. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please assume AGF or I'll take you to ANI FiachraByrne (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Andrews (1991 thesis) Bethlem itself first referred to inmates 'lunatickes' as patients in 1640s - makes sense with inauguration of medical regime in 1634. FiachraByrne (talk) 21:58, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Tom O'Bedlams
Cut section:

"In the early modern period it was widely believed that patients discharged from Bethlem Hospital were licensed to beg, though in 1675 the Governors denied this. They were known as Abraham-men or Tom o' Bedlam. They usually wore a tin plate on their arm as a badge and were also known as Bedlamers, Bedlamites, or Bedlam Beggars. In William Shakespeare's King Lear, the Earl of Gloucester's son Edgar takes the role of a Bedlam Beggar in order to remain in England unnoticed after banishment. Whether any were ever licensed is uncertain. There were probably far more who claimed falsely to have been inmates than were ever admitted to the hospital."

FiachraByrne (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bedlamites certainly existed but unclear if they had any but symbolic relationship to institution.FiachraByrne (talk) 22:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Picking up books this week
FiachraByrne (talk) 02:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Edward Geoffrey O'Donoghue, The Story of Bethlem Hospital from its Foundation in 1247 (London, 1914).
 * Charles Webster (ed), Health, Medicine and Mortality in the Sixteenth Century (Cambridge, 1979).
 * David Russell, Scenes from Bedlam: A History of Caring for the Mentally Disordered at Bethlem Royal Hospital and the Maudsley (London, c. 1997).
 * Jonathan Andrews et al., The History of Bethlem (London, 1997).
 * Patricia Allderidge, The Bethlem Royal Hospital: an Illustrated History (London, 1995).
 * Jonathan Barry and Collin Jones (eds), Medicine and Charity before the Welfare State (London, 1991).


 * Only got the two key ones in the end. Andrews et al. and Allderidge chapter in Webster. FiachraByrne (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)