Talk:Betsy Ross/Archive 1

Buying Betsy Ross's
This section looks like vandalism to me; it just contains a link to a commercial website and the link wasn't even entered with the correct wiki syntax. Does anyone else agree that this section should be removed? SyntaxPC 16:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
I ahve removed the following: "Collateral evidence to the claim that Betsy indeed provided significant design input in the flag is provided by reference to Ashburn's family coat of arms. The Ashburn crest provides a stars and bars motif not unlike Old Glory itself."

For starters, the site cited does not mention Ross, the flag or anything else about the topic. This makes the inclusion Original Research. That's enough, but I like to be thorough ...

So I checked out a couple of other names. Since the poster of that little nugget thought three red and white stripes with six white stars is a "stars and bars motif not unlike Old Glory itself", Washington's coat of arms is "collateral evidence" that he had input. Along for the ride were Bill Clinton, Dave Barry, Gtechen Mol, and, perhaps, Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. SummerPhD 18:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Why is this article the subject of so much minor vandalism? SummerPhD 14:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Text removed 19 November 2007
I have just removed this addition: "Though her name appears in severall history books, much investigation has yet to show any evidence as such. Latter work done by congressional and American historians has suggested. this to be more myth than fact. The rumor was actually started by Ross' grandson. Mary Young Pickersgill would later be credited with the original sewing though her name still appears in few text books." The first section quotes another wiki; wiki's are not reliable sources. The second half picks up a portion of the answer given on that wiki ("The “First Flag” in the Smithsonian is often revires as Betsy’s Flag, however, it is was sewn by Mary Pickersgill, from Balitmore, and was not the first flag by a long shot.") and misunderstands it to say that Pickersgill sewed the first flag. Pickersgill sewed the original "Star Spangled Banner" flag circa 1813. In the tracing of THAT flag's history, Pickersgill's daughter claimed that her grandmother (Rebecca Young) made "the first flag of the Revolution", but no one knows what that flag looked like (i.e., it may not have born any resemblance to the red/white/blue stripes and stars deal). SummerPhD (talk) 19:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Betsy's Second Husband
The section where Betsy Ross' second marriage is pointed out is unclear. Since when does the reader know that Capt Ashburn is being looked for? The sentence under the heading "Subsequent" that starts with 'Captain Ashburn was captured...' simply appears with no previous indication that capt ashburn was in hiding or if he was being chased. Please provide more information.Monkeytheboy (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * He wasn't specifically in hiding or specifically being chased or looked for. It was a war:"...supported the war effort. In June 1777, she married sea captain Joseph Ashburn....Captain Ashburn was captured by the British on a trip to procure supplies..."
 * Procuring supplies for one side, captured by the other side.
 * SummerPhD (talk) 21:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Betsy's First Husband
This information appears to be totally inaccurate. It says she married William Ross, when in fact she married John Ross. It says she divorced her first husband, but in fact he died and made her a widow. The section on her first husband should be before the information on husband's two and three. Also, there is no mention of John Ross's relationship to his uncle, who was one of the three people who came to her originally for help with the flag. I don't know what else in this article is wrong, but there are clear factual issues that need to be corrected. There are also no references cited for the information on the first husband. I followed all of the links and found no reference to either William Ross or John Ross, and I also found no reference to the word divorce at all. 75.75.94.101 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just removed some old vandalism and added new detail. Should be better now. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Grand Union Flag
Although I know this article can't be edited at the moment, I thought a mention of the Grand Union Flag would be noteworthy. See Grand Union Flag. Mushed 01:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This article links to other articles about American flags, and those articles mention the Grand Union. That information is only a few clicks away for those who are looking for it.  I don't think there's a real need to mention it here, since no one has ever claimed that Betsy Ross took a GU flag and replaced the Union with stars.Mingusboodle (talk) 04:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"First official flag"
=I supposed you guys totally missed the History Channel's History of Old Glory". In it, it states Betsy Ross never met Georgia Washing, that GW probably had no idea who she was. That is is acredited to the gossip of her GrandSon many years later that she is acredited with creating the american flag. The story of Besty Ross meeting with GW and the others in the shop didnt take hold till almost 100 years after the fact. Francis Hopkinson is regarded by many to be the designers of the orignal american flag

No official exact specification of the flag was produced until 1818 (and even then, it was only binding on the Navy), so that there were quite a few variations in the early days. The only "official" specification in 1777 was the laconic resolution passed by the Continental Congress:


 * "RESOLVED, that the flag of the 13 United States be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white: That the union be thirteen stars, white in a blue field, representing a new constellation."

And in fact, the arrangement with the stars in a circle has come to be known as the "Ross" arrangment, while the diagonal criss-cross has come to be known as the "Hopkinson" arrangment (see Flags_of_the_United_States etc.). AnonMoos 19:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Two suggestions: 1) I think the intro could be changed from what Ross is alledged to have done (make "the first" flag) to something she is known to have done (make United States ensigns during the American Revolutionary War) 2) The John Hopkinson section could be greatly reduced or even eliminated.  This article isn't about him, he has his own article; and the debate about who made "the first" flag- silly as it is- takes place in other articles.  This is the article about Elizabeth Griscom Ross, so let's make it about her. Mingusboodle (talk) 04:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The intro should definitely state the claimed connection to the first flag. Ross is notable because of it, not for making ensigns. Paintings of her, the bridged named for her and her (alleged) house being a tourist attraction all hinge on this claim (as does her notability for wikipedia).
 * The Hopkinson "section" is all of three sentances and essentially destroys the Ross' only claim of notability. It should stay. Suppose we had an article on someone who was claimed to be President of the U.S. in the 18th century, though official records indicated it was someone else. Should the article mention the other person? You bet. Lots of articles have "controversy" sections, this one's is not titled as such and, unlike most, clearly and concisely delivers all of the information needed to understand why the claim is bogus. The "first flag" question is central to this article. Similarly, Betsy Ross House covers that it is likely not her house (wrong location) and that most of the structure isn't original to the period either. ("Let's take the kids there. It'll be educational. She didn't do what they say she did, it wasn't her house and it isn't her grave.") - SummerPhD (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this excellent summary. I am the editor who added the Hopkinson material, and I did so for precisely the reasons you mention. Clearly, people are going to read this article to find out whether the weight of evidence either points to, or points away from, the first flag story. Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see your point on the intro. On Hopkinson, I really think his role could be shortened to even one sentence, such as "Other people, such as Francis Hopkinson, have claimed responsibility for the design of the first flag."  This article doesn't need to dwell on him, and it certainly doesn't need to make hyperbolic statements about the U.S. government officially declaring him the man behind the flag.  This information is all on his article, and you can read there that Congress actually denied his claim because he was not the only person involved in the design.  (Note: Hopkinson designed the flag, but most of the early flags were made by women.  Even if Hopkinson had invented the Grand Union Flag, it doesn't at all disprove that someone else made it.)  I'm not going to argue about this, though, because I think the whole concept of a "first flag" is utterly rediculous.  Even Camby's paper, on which all modern Betsy Ross legends are based, clearly states that many Philadelphia women were making flags when Betsy got her first order. Mingusboodle (talk) 19:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. No argument here. Joegoodfriend (talk) 00:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, I tried rewriting the "Revolutionary War" section. If you don't like it, just revert it.  I also removed the 1776 date, because Canby said in his paper that the date was his own best guess. Mingusboodle (talk) 21:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I also fixed the broken link to "5-pointed star". I'm not sure, but it might be worth mentioning that 1) Ross never made any real claim to the flag except for the 5-pointed star, and 2) while Executive orders specify 5-pointed stars for official use, Congress has never defined the number of points on the stars, and you can use whatever stars in whatever arrangement you want if you're making your own U.S. flag.  Maybe that information isn't relevant, I don't know. Mingusboodle (talk) 03:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Betsy Ross
Betsy Ross Betsy Ross was born on January 1, 1752 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (about.com, pg.1). It was around the time of the Revolution. She is known mostly for making the first American flag with thirteen stripes and thirteen stars. Betsy Ross was born as Elizabeth Griscom to Samuel and Rebecca James Griscom(about.com, pg.1). She changed her name to Betsy Ross because she got married and I guess Betsy was her nickname. She married John Ross who died three years later in an explosion. They started an upholstery business and she kept doing business there(about.com, pg.1). She made a lot of different kinds of flags for Philadelphia. A year later in 1777, George Washington and other patriots visited her. She made the first American flag with thirteen five-pointed stars in a circle and thirteen stripes in a red and white pattern. Betsy Ross remarried again for a third time. She married to Joseph Ashburn. He died in prison. Then she married to John Claypoole who was in prison with Joseph Ashburn (about.com, pg.1-2). All of her husbands died before she did. She had children with both John Claypoole and Joseph Ashburn, but not with John Ross (about.com, pg.1-2). Years later she retired. She went to live with her daughter. When she was 84-years-old, she died. (ushistory.com, pg.2). Most people don’t think Betsy Ross made the first American flag. They don’t know for sure. Years later, her grandson told the story of Betsy Ross and the First American Flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.184.30 (talk) 21:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Um... I give up. Why are you summarizing the article on the talk page? - SummerPhD (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

how many husbands Betsy Ross had
Betsy Ross had three husbands. first was john Ross next was Captain Joseph Ashburn. then John Claypoole.

that is it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.45.15 (talk) 03:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Betsy_Ross&oldid=352005587 Current edition as of 26 March barely mentions Ashburn. Was something deleted? — Nahum Reduta &#91;talk&#124;contribs&#93; 04:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

possible copyvio in swction 'post war'
seems to be a lift from: http://www.betsyrosshouse.org/hist_woman/

i suspect this because why would only one section of both articles coincide word for word, if they were lifting their info from wikipedia, why not take more? ViniTheHat (talk) 18:08, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like a copyright violation from some time ago. I've rewritten the section to get rid of the violation. If I get a chance, I'll come back and do a rewrite of the rewrite to establish a solid distance between the two. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! ViniTheHat (talk) 13:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

NNPOV?
The last piece:

''Further research of Betsy Ross has linked the young student Benjamin Griscom to her lineage. She would be consider a very very great aunt to him. His grandparents live just outside of Philadelphia where her home is located. When visiting the Betsy Ross home in downtown Philadelphia a large family tree is on display linking the Griscom family with Betsy Ross. Betsy Ross's maiden name was Griscom.''

''Some people consider the Betsy Ross story to be legend, but it can be proved true if you venture to her home in Philadelphia. Her home has been turned into a museum show casing not only her flag but what she and others did to help during the revolutionary war. The workers even recognize the Griscom family when they visit. Betsy Ross is considered a national hero and was one of the most influential women of her time. Her prowess will live on through the remnants of her family, namely the Griscom family. Benjamin Griscom will carry on the great American legend will add his own story the world history books.''

Is it really necesary? it kind of seemes NNPOV to me, so much more that it is added by a certain User:Bengriscom as in the cited Benjamin Griscom. --Amendola90 (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * When the vandalism is that obvious, just drevert it, warn the vandal and move on. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 02:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

possible vandalism
please check this edit seems to be unsourced and possible vandalism. --  Ð ℬig XЯaɣ   17:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Your link shows changes from before one edit to whatever the current version is. This now includes my correction of what I think you are referring to, which is this edit. The edit in question repeats the pleasant little myth that Ross died in her sleep (I guess the history books got carried away with putting smiley faces all over this BS story at some point). I've added a source that clarifies that she was not asleep. I guess that's everything: Her first name wasn't Betsy, her last name was "Ross" for all of 4 years, she didn't make the first flag, didn't die in her sleep, that isn't her house and the body in the yard isn't hers. Anything else? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 02:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Maude
The reference to Betsy Ross in the theme song from Maude was deleted as trivial but several of the other pages for historic figures mentioned in that song include the reference from Maude, i.e. Isadora Duncan. 68.83.175.245 (talk) 07:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We generally do not include random mentions of a topic in popular culture, such as in songs. Why? Because of God. Wait, what? OK, not really because of God, but God is a good example. Imagine if we included all of the songs, books, movies, TV shows, paintings, speeches, etc. that mention "God" in the article God. The article would be an endless (and quite useless) list. Should some references be included? Maybe. How can we decide which ones to include? Simple: If reliable sources discussing the song have given meaningful discussion of the topic appearing in the song, that would probably be reason to include it in the article about the song. If reliable sources discussing the topic (in this case, Betsy Ross) discuss the song, that might be reason to include it in the article about the topic. So, for example, God does not mention One of Us (Joan Osborne song), Dear God (XTC song), Dear God (film), etc. Those articles, however, do mention "God".
 * But what about those other articles? Well, those other articles are wrong and should be fixed. It's kinda like 5 cars going 75 in a 55 zone and one going 50. The cops are going to go after the ones going 75, though it might be easier to tell the one going 50 to drive faster. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:45, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

What did she do in the war?
What did Betsy ross do during the war? Nothing tells me this. I need to know that great thing she did, and if i dont figure it out, i could get a bad grade. so, please, find out and put it on this website. I need it for a project by the end of this week. which is a short time. plus i have a math test on thursday. so cant go on the website then. i kind of need it now. Byee and Good luck!!!!!


 * Wikipedia isn't really meant to accept requests like this, nor will anyone here probably do the research for you. Therefore, you should probably consult other sources (probably primary sources).  I wouldn't be surprised if no reputable secondary sources exist with this information, given Ross' dubious historical significance.  However, my first instict would be to read one of her numerous biographies.  Also, you aren't going to get on anyone's good side by spamming Wikipedia talk pages with random strings of characters.  Finally, you probably shouldn't be using Wikipedia as your sole source of information for your project.  SyntaxPC 23:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this is in time to help your project, but Betsy Ross was most famous for being a virgin who created the first American flag after she was shown the design during a dream in which the angel Gabriel visited her. In those days it would have been considered very unusual for a virgin to make a flag design. That is why Betsy Ross is now known as the "Virgin Mother" of America. Hephatsheput (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That is all true, except for the parts about her being a virgin, the dream, the bit about it being considered unusual and the name "Virgin Mother of America". Also, there's the bit about responding to a request for help on a school project from six years ago. Basically, Hephatsheput is trolling. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 19:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Who's buried in Ross' tomb?
"An article in Saturday's Inquirer reported incorrectly that Betsy Ross is buried in Mount Moriah Cemetery in Cobbs Creek Park. Records indicate her body was moved to the cemetery from a Quaker burial ground 20 years after she died in 1836. But no remains were found under her tombstone in 1975, when workers sought to move her body before the Bicentennial. Bones believed to be hers were discovered elsewhere in the family plot and reinterred at the courtyard of the Betsy Ross House, Third and Arch Streets." Philadelphia Inquirer, November 22, 2005 "Corrections" http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/corrections/13230319.htm SummerPhD 19:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That cemetery has washed out grave contents into Cobbs Creek many times over the years. Depending on where her grave at Mount Moraih was located, her remains may have washed away into the creek or even decayed completely after a century and change. No citation, only personal experience with bodies washing into the creek back when I was growing up in that area (59th and Springfield).Wzrd1 (talk) 17:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Children
An IP editor changed her and John having no children to her having a child with him. A quick Google search provided conflicting and fragmentary information from not highly reliable sources. Rather than remove the uncited name, I slapped a citation needed on it and brought the issue here for someone who knows of reliable sources to help out with.Wzrd1 (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I reviewed the sources cited in the article. Most made no specific mention of children with John Ross. Two of them, however, were clear on the issue and I've added cites to them for this issue: "... leaving Mrs Ross, a young widow, without any children." and "Elizabeth Griscom married John Ross in 1773 and was widowed three years later. In 1778 she married Joseph Ashburn, a merchant mariner who died in 1783 in a British prison. Her third husband and the father of her children was John Claypoole..."
 * This leaves some problems with the kids cited later in the paragraph starting "On June 15, 1777..." There we have claims for "their (with Ashburn) first daughter together, Zilla, died aged nine months and their second daughter, Elizabeth, was born." The Ulrich source makes no mention of children with Ashburn and seems to imply there weren't any. The ushistory.org source gives her a daughter, "Eliza", with Ashburn. I don't see any sources for "Zilla". I'm editing it to fit the sources we have: "Eliza" (not "Elizabeth") with a cite, "Zilla" gets the boot.
 * If you ran across sources giving other children or contradicting these, please mention them here or edit to match the reliable sources you find. Thanks. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 01:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Order of importance
Seems ridiculous that the portion of the article that readers are likely looking for — the flag myth et al — is relegated to the last section. Surely her marriages, burial, stamp commemoration and other factlets, while worth of inclusion, are better summarized under a different section. Woodshed (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Born with a full set of teeth?
Several websites claim Betsy Ross was born with a full set of teeth. This sounds like an urban legend to me--babies are occasionally born with one or teeth but a full set? Does anyone has any reliable info about this? Miss Tabitha 06:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Miss Tabitha (talk • contribs) 06:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, there is this article about "natal" teeth might be what she had. But, as for verifying that she had it herself, kind of hard I'd think. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003268.htm AbsolutGrndZer0 (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

"former Rebecca"??!
What exactly does the word "former" in "born to Samuel Griscom and the former Rebecca James" mean? That her mother changed name? Changed identity and went into hiding? Had a gender reassignment surgery? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.68.191.116 (talk) 18:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think they're trying to say that the mother's maiden name was "Rebecca James". Or, that the mother had been married previously, and her married name was at one time "Rebecca James". One could write that "Ross was born to Samuel Griscom and Rebecca James ...", though it would lead some people to think this implies the parents were not married, as they apparently did not share the same last name.Codenamemary (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Six point stars
Yes, the legend claims that Ross convinced Washing ton that five point stars were easier to produce. Again, though, this is part of the same unconfirmed legend, as Miller makes clear. This review of Miller spells that out: "According to legend, Washington was known to favor six-pointed stars, but Ross a “headstrong’’ and “willful’’ young woman, as Miller describes her, employed a “parlor trick’’ to demonstrate that making a five-pointed star was easier, and Washington was convinced. The “infelicities’’ in this traditional account of the birth of the Stars and Stripes “appear quickly,’’ writes Miller. There is no documentary evidence for Ross’s making of the original flag, although there is a record of her being paid a year later for “making ship’s colours’’ for the Pennsylvania Navy." - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 01:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks - clearly, I should've done more research or posted the question here first - thanks for correcting. -- Scray (talk) 04:03, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a big deal. So much of the "history" floating around about Ross is based on people wanting to believe that she was some kind of patriotic, feminist hero. With so many well-intentioned people investing so much emotion in the legend, historical reality gets pushed to the side. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 06:40, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Editing jumble
In undertaking a major clean up of unsourced conjecture and credulity at Betsy Ross flag, I inadvertently replaced the entirety of this article with my cleaned up version of that one. corrected my mistake here, by reverting my bad save. I have now restored my cleaned up version at Betsy Ross flag. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Francis Hopkinson has my vote
Francis Hopkinson repeatedly demanded to be paid for designing the flag, and these government records are intact. He was refused payment on the grounds that he was already a government employee and why should he be paid twice, not because Betsy designed the flag. There are no records of Betsy Ross designing the flag, so that should settle the matter. The urban legend of Betsy personally meeting with George Washington and showing him how to make a 5-pointed star is attractive because of its "storybook-like" quality, and that's what fascinates people. Anybody can make a 5-pointed star, we did it in grade school--you can even find instructions on the internet. Granted, Washington never went to school a day in his life but he may have known how to make 5-pointed stars already since he liked 6-pointed stars and would have investigated different star forms. Betsy was a flag-maker, not a flag designer. The ISSUE should be: did Betsy MANUFACTURE the first American flag or did another flag-maker do it? And then we have the matter of Margaret Manny, who is credited with making the FIRST American flag--the Grand Union Flag. Why is Manny never mentioned? If a woman should get credit for making the first American flag, it should be Manny. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 07:11, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I've spent a good deal of time on this article, Betsy Ross House, Betsy Ross flag and Flag of the United States, primarily focused on cleaning out the myths and legends about Ross presented as facts. At most, I'd think this article might make passing mention others others who are claimed to have designed the first flag of the United States. That said, caution is called for. There are numerous claims and counter-claims, often running roughshod over exactly what is being claimed. Hopkinson certainly designed a naval flag that was used. It certainly has similarities to the eventually adopted flag of the United States, but it was neither entirely original nor identical to the selected flag. As the issue is far from settled, I don't see specific reference to Hopkinson as appropriate here.
 * Manny's Grand Union Flag predates Hopkinson's design. In fact, it predates the Declaration of Independence. I know of no claim that it was adopted as the flag of the United States. Again, it differs from the flag finally selected (using the British Union in place of the field of stars) and, again, is heavily reliant on prior designs (virtually identical to the BEI flag of 1707).
 * This article (and Betsy Ross House) gives a recounting of the legend and presents the compelling evidence that the story is bunk. So far, so good. Perhaps a sentence mentioning the claims with a Wikilink is in order. That's all fine.
 * The Betsy Ross Flag article needs some work, as does Flag of the United States. Francis Hopkinson presents a muddy view with some internal inconsistency. Our Margaret Manny article is a sad little stub.
 * In my opinion, the articles about the individual flags (Continental Colors, Grand Union Flag, Betsy Ross Flag, etc.) should give the most detailed info on those flags, purported designer(s) and such. The articles on the people (Ross, Hopkinson, Manny, etc.) should briefly summarize their purported involvement and the scholarly consensus on the claims made. Flag of the United States should summarize the individual flag articles, with very brief claim/consensus pieces on the purported designer(s). In this framework, the individual flag article's would be primary: Nothing in Betsy Ross, for example, should say anything about the flag associated with her that is not covered in Flag of the United States. Material about the people having nothing to do with flags (such as Hopkinson's overall career) is a separate issue.
 * Questions, comments, complaints, etc. before I take this to Talk:Flag of the United States? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 15:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Betsy Ross's seven daughters were born after the supposed flag-making incident with George Washington so their "affidavits" in the matter can only be based on hearsay. Charles Wilson Peale's portrait of George Washington at the Battle of Princeton (1779) shows the flag with the circular pattern of stars BUT the stars have six points, not five.  Francis Hopkinson was friends with George Washington--and apparently Betsy Ross and George Washington went to the same church, Christ Church.  Francis Hopkinson was on the second of three committees to design the Great Seal, so it's probable he would have contributed to the flag design also.  The population of Philadelphia at the time of the Revolution was only 40,000 so it's conceivable that these people knew one another to one degree or another (the entire population of the colonies at this time was only 2.5 million).  The University of Virginia has so far amassed 52 volumes of George Washington's writings and correspondence so perhaps an answer can be found in them.  50.202.81.2 (talk) 22:49, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * We have reliable sources discussing the affidavits, so that is discussed in Betsy Ross flag. Peale's painting of a battle from before the flag resolution was passed is not a reliable source for what actually was flown 3 years earlier at a battle he didn't witness, nor would it indicate whether the flag was "official" or merely what was available. Possible connections between Ross, Washington and Hopkinson are moot here (as are the other points) unless we have reliable sources discussing them. If reliable sources relate anything relevant from the U of Va. material, we can certainly use it, to the extent that the source ties it to the flag in question.
 * Long story short: We need more reliable sources discussing the issues and less speculation. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Going back to the three affidavits, they mention that the flag design was originally square, and that the stars were strewn haphazardly over the blue field and Betsy made them change these to a geometric pattern--I think these things should be mentioned as well as the 5-pointed star issue. And what about Betsy and George having pews next to each other in church and her sewing ruffles for his shirts?  Were they having an affair?  And why are the three affidavits all similiar in tone and construction, as if the same person wrote them?  50.202.81.2 (talk) 01:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Here's something interesting: Canby said that Betsy was sitting with "her girls around her" when the committee called. Her daughters hadn't even been born yet. --Hm, the "girls" referred to were her shop helpers. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 01:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Your speculation is original research unless you have independent reliable sources making these observations. As such, it is no help here. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

We know that George Washington was invited to go to Philadelphia by John Hancock in a letter of May 16, 1776 to discuss important matters of war and that Hancock invited Washington to stay at his house. Washington was in Philadelphia from May 22 to June 5, 1776, but he and Martha stayed at City Tavern on South Second Street. Washington left for New York on June 5th and arrived the next day. So Washington spent 15 days in Philadelphia. The next time Washington was in Philadelphia was Aug. 2, 1777. So the timeline of Washington meeting with Betsy Ross to construct a flag fits perfectly. The reason for a new flag was because at the Siege of Boston the British thought the USA was on their side because the Union Jack was in the canton of the American flag. Washington himself remarked in a letter of the battle at the time: "By this time, I presume, they begin to think it strange that we have not made a formal surrender of our lines". So designing and making a new flag after the Siege of Boston was obvious. And the design given to Betsy Ross had the stars in disarray on the field of blue--and Francis Hopkinson's stars on his Great Seal design were in disarray--so we can assume the sketch was made by Hopkinson, who was a friend of George Washington's. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 23:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, this is all original research. As it is of no use in improving the article, it is off topic here. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:34, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Secret Committees

If there are no records of the Flag Committee it is probably because committees were being formed all the time to deal with all sorts of matters and typically these would be Secret Committees since the Colonials were committing treason, after all. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 02:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, this is off topic speculation. Only facts and theories presented in independent reliable sources are of any use here. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:37, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Charles Wilson Peale at Battle of Princeton

Charles Wilson Peale was a Captain in the militia and was at the Battle of Princeton which was on Jan. 3, 1777. In his 1779 portrait of Geo Washington at the Battle of Princeton the Betsy Ross flag is shown with 6-pointed stars. However, in Peale's 1784 portrait of Geo Washington at the Battle of Princeton the flag has 5-pointed stars. The stars themselves have meaning: the 5-pointed star has more of a Christian significance, while the 6-pointed star has more of an occult, Star of David, other religious significance. So when Betsy Ross admonished Washington about this, he replied that she was right but it was too difficult to make 5-pointed stars. So Betsy got out her scissors and with four folds and one snip showed him how to make a 5-pointed star. --Problem solved. It should be pointed out that the sewing machine had not been invented yet so seamstresses had to make the flags by hand, which means each flag would be unique. So a seamstress sewed the first flag, and the bulk of the evidence indicates Betsy Ross was the seamstress. Since no one has found any government records, we have to rely on the sworn affidavits. Remember, there's no government record of Francis Hopkinson designing the first flag either, just the response to his asking for a quarter cask of the public wine in payment. I'm a skeptic but everything I research indicates Betsy sewed the first flag. Apparently the Committee had asked a couple of other seamstresses to make a flag but their work was not satisfactory. A seamstress made the first flag, and all indications are it was Betsy Ross. Quakers do not boast nor lie, so Betsy didn't go around town boasting about it. Also, national flags did not come into prominence until the War Between the States, up until then they were just battle flags to distinguish units in the field, ships of the line, and forts. --No different than making a uniform or anything else. So it was not until after the Civil War that the notion of who made the first flag became a matter of importance. In the meantime, the "Betsy Ross Conspiracy Theory" says that Betsy Ross did not make the first flag, that she did not live in the Betsy Ross house and that she is not buried in the Betsy Ross grave. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 04:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, which would require material from reliable sources. Speculation, synthesis and such do not belong on this page or anywhere else on Wikipedia. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 05:46, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected page request
The vandalism on this page is a disgrace and ridiculous. Can we add a layer of protection? Coolcam6578 (talk) 15:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2018
TYPO - change cearlier to earlier 2604:2000:240A:1D00:2DC3:7720:AA71:2DBB (talk) 04:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Danski454 (talk) 07:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Uses of Betsy Ross Flag
I feel there should be a forum somewhere on Wikipedia to discuss and/or document the various, often nefarious uses of the Betsy Ross Flag in 20th Century US politics. I appreciate this might not relate directly to the person in question, however there is similarly no room on the 'American Flag' page. It is also exactly the 'Betsy Ross' flag that has been used by hate groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.187.90 (talk) 15:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)


 * That would be an awfully tiny forum, since there aren't any such "nefarious uses" to be found. The 50 star flag is much more likely to be seen at hate group meetings and on hate group websites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.1.214.5 (talk) 17:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Just don't. This article is a biography about someone who lived in the 18th and 19th centuries.  Twitter-level controversy is being debated on other articles, but it has absolutely no relevance here. Canute (talk) 02:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2019
Change Betsy was survived by her five daughters with John Claypoole: Eliza, Clarissa, Susanna, Jane and Rachel, and one sister...

to

Betsy was survived by her five daughters, one daughter Eliza, with Joseph Ashburn, and her four daughters with John Claypoole: Clarissa, Susanna, Jane and Rachel and one sister.... 172.114.176.124 (talk) 15:38, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Interstellarity (talk) 01:08, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

New infobox image
We should change the infobox image. The current proposal was made over 150 years after she died and isn’t very realistic. Here’s my proposal. It was made nearly 80 years before the current image, so it’s much closer to being contemporary, and it’s a painting, so it’s a much more accurate representation of who Betsy Ross actually was. The current image is just a celebratory souvenir. Thoughts? The Image Editor (talk) 17:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The current image is pretty horrible. This one's a definite improvement.
 * That said, I think the image is a bit earlier than you think and I don't think any image we find can be described as "accurate".
 * It's a postcard from 1908, but the painting itself might be a bit older. In any case, it's clearly celebrating the mythical Ross and I don't imagine accuracy was a goal. Compare your suggestion with the hair and dress in Betsy Ross 1777 cph.3g09905.jpg, File:RossBetsy.jpg and countless others available. I'm anything but an expert on 18th century anything, but there's sizable gap there between Ross as an aristocrat of the age and something closer to my imagined twenty-something ("Free") Quaker upholsterer's apprentice. If nothings else, I've got questions about how practical that first dress is. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 18:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * We also have Betsy Ross 1777 cph.3g09905.jpg and countless others floating around.- Sum mer PhD v2.0 18:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * How about this? It’s so far the only image I’ve found of her that was made prior to 1900. The Image Editor (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Works for me. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 23:35, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I’ll change the image. The Image Editor (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Add Cultural Depiction Request
Please add that Ross is depicted in the artwork Our Nation's 200th Birthday, The Telephone's 100th Birthday (1976) by Stanley Meltzoff for Bell System https://www.jklmuseum.com/tag/stanley-meltzoff/ 47.152.71.253 (talk) 22:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

John Claypoole is a redirect
What would be the proper hatnote on the redirect target?— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:57, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no evidence "John Claypoole" is a common spelling or even misspelling of "John Claypole". If it's all right, I changed the redirect target to here and put the hatnote here as well.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  20:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)