Talk:Better dead than red

Is the initial version a lie?
This article was started by User talk:67.176.87.85. On their user talk you can see that this IP adress had been used for vandalism. So I think we need a source for the claims (click to see first version) the IP user posted. I couldn't find any proof of that "Lieber tot als rot" was coined by Goebbels so I deleted that for now. --194.95.33.142 09:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That user is an anon IP address. The fact that it's vandalized doesn't mean much - multiple people may use it.
 * With regard to the claim that Goebbels invented "lieber tot als rot" before "better dead than red," I can't find proof either. However, there is one independent source, not citable, which claims it.
 * The source mentions Radio Werwolf, which was real, run by Goebbels, and encouraged suicidal resistance, so the story is credible. I'm going to restore the claim, but with a citation needed tag.
 * Kalkin 21:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The book "The Devil's disciples: Hitler's inner circle," By Anthony Read, backs up this view in regards to the radio broadcasts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.249.5.97 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't we just love it how rumors about "Nazis" are backed up by obscure books over and over again. --41.151.53.37 (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

No evidence of Nazi connection (after search of major newspapers)
I have done a keyword search of the Chicago Tribune, the L.A. Times, the N.Y. Times, and the Washington Post and have found no evidence of a Nazi connection for this phrase. I used the ProQuest Historial Newspapers database, which extends back into the 19th Century.

The earliest use that I could find of either "Better Red than dead" or "Better dead than Red" comes from 1961, after the former slogan had become popular among British pacifists. The earliest uses I can find of "Better dead than Red" are responses to "Better Red than dead," suggesting that the former appeared prior to the latter.

There are no articles in this newspaper database that suggest a Nazi or German origin for either term. The person usually cited as the coiner (of the "Better Red" version, which seems to have come first) is Bertrand Russell.

Since when was "possibly" valid enough to mention without any real citation? 70.176.172.73 (talk) 01:52, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieber_tot_als_rot https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liewer_d%C3%BCd_a%C3%9F_Slaawe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eala_Frya_Fresena — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B40:7ABC:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 13:44, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Moving article
The article should be moved to "Better dead than red" since this version is much more famous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedro8790 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree, wasn't this article originally titled, "Better Dead than Red?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.157.127.37 (talk) 18:19, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Any evidence? ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 03:05, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Twice as many results on Google for "Better Dead than Red" over "Better Red than Dead". "Better Dead" also comes first alphabetically, and the phrase chronologically came first, by several decades over "Better Red". Sadistik (talk) 03:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree, as this slogan is most famous around anti-communism and should thus reflect such.--Blockhaj (talk) 00:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * All international articles (except Portuguese) has rather dead.--Blockhaj (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

A corollary
"Live free or die" and "Better red than dead" are antithetical mottos. They can be juxtaposed, and the theme expanded.50.43.163.127 (talk) 00:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)