Talk:Betty Williams (Coronation Street)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Matthewedwards : Chat  22:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I'll be reviewing this article against the Good article criteria. I have already checked it against the "quick fail criteria", and it passes that, so I will now begin the "review proper". This may take me up to two days, so please be patient :)

I will be back soon with a complete review. All the best, Matthewedwards : Chat  22:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * The prose is pretty good, but I found a few things that didn't sit right with me, and a couple of MOS infractions:
 * "in the UK television soap opera Coronation Street." The MOS says you should use "United Kingdom" instead of "UK" the first time. The thing is, it makes the sentence a bit long winded. Perhaps "British" would work better?
 * When Driver auditioned for Hilda Ogden, that character wasn't iconic, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to say that.
 * "The character first arrived in Coronation Street to help her sister Maggie Clegg run the corner shop" Using "first" makes it sound like the character left, and then rejoined the soap, but the rest of the article gives no indication that that happened.
 * Perhaps wikilink to hotpot and meat pie or other suitable articles for those not familiar with such foods.
 * "Betty Driver, who had been performing since she was 8 years old, retired in the 1960s and worked in hotels in Cheshire." Do you have an age for when she retired? Also, how did she retire and work in hotels? I think it probably means that she worked in hotels after retiring from performing, but it's not clear.
 * "Hilda Ogden - just think" per MOS:DASH, either the hyphen should be a spaced en-dash or unspaced em-dash
 * "insofar" is a tad informal. Is there any other phrase that could be used instead that would better match the WP:TONE of an encyclopedia?
 * "However, Little notes that" -- in this instance, "however" is being used as a conjunction, joining the information in one sentence with that in the second. Instead of a full stop, a semi-colon should be in place, like: 'blah, blah, blah; however, yadda yadda yadda.
 * The first mention of Cyril is in the sentence "Cyril frequently protests when Betty attempts to diet". I had to break from where I was reading and scan the rest of the article to see if it mentioned who Cyril was. Perhaps consider switching around the order of the sub-sections and having Backstory first, Storylines second, and Personality third, so it makes a bit more sense?
 * "She'll be here for a long time to come — she'll just be on the other side of the bar for a change".[4] In a storyline that aired in February 2010, Betty - at 90 years old - was named Manchester's Oldest Barmaid." -- again, follow WP:DASH on the correct usage, which is spaced en-dashes or unspaced em-dashes, even in quotes where the source may have used a different style.
 * "ITV describe Betty as a "lynchpin" of the soap opera" -- this is the first mention of ITV, and it isn't Wikilinked. Perhaps mention somewhere that ITV is the broadcaster of Corrie?
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * The references that are in the article are good, but the entire Storylines section is uncited. Is there any way you might be able to use cite video to cite the episodes in which the events mentioned occur? I have no doubt that it's all true, and I'm aware that we can use episodes as primary sources, but it would be nice to have them as reference points if at all possible.
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * Has the actress been sick and absent from the soap for any prolonged period of time? I vaguely recall something, but in all honesty it might be that other old woman in the electric wheelchair who used to annoy Fred Elliott that I'm thinking of.
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * No issues here
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * Nothing of note
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * The images do not appear to meet WP:NFCC#8 (the hotpot one is better, though). A couple of good articles that meet NFCC for reference are The Stolen Earth, and Mother and Child Reunion (Degrassi: The Next Generation).
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pretty good. The prose shouldn't be too difficult to get sorted out. My main concerns with this article are the image rationales and references to episodes for storylines. I'll put the nomination on hold so that the article editors have a chance to rectify the issues raised. Good luck! Matthewedwards : Chat  07:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pass/Fail:

Hi, thank you very much for the helpful review. I've been through point by point, and hope I've satisfied all your concerns.
 * Prose
 * That first sentence was definitely long-winded. I've changed it to '...is a long-standing fictional character from the British soap opera Coronation Street, portrayed by former music hall star Betty Driver.'
 * You're right, I've cut the 'iconic character'
 * I've dropped the 'first'. I think it's because I'm used to starting off storyline sections with 'So and so first appears' or 'So and so is first seen', but in this context it is misleading.
 * I've added a piped link to Lancashire hotpot, and because it was linked in the next line down, I've removed that link.
 * The source doesn't mention at what age she retired, it just places it between working on Pardon the Expression and joining Coronation Street in 1969. Given that the former ran from 1965-1966, and she was born in 1920, I've changed it to read "in her late forties", but can't be more specific than that. I've clarified the rest of the sentence by changing it to: "retired from acting in her late-forties to run hotels in Cheshire."
 * I've changed it to a spaced en dash, as it's spaced in the article referenced.
 * I've changed 'insofar as' to just 'as'.
 * Thank you, I've never had a good grasp of semi-colons, but I've changed it now.
 * Done - you're right, ordering it this way definitely gives more context to the reader.
 * Changed to spaced en dashes.
 * Oops! I usually mention broadcaster in the lead, so I've gone back up and changed it to '...from the British ITV soap opera...'


 * Storylines
 * I believe my thinking is much like yours on this matter - I know that WP:MOSTV says that plot summaries don't normally require citations, but I usually try and use cite episode to pinpoint specific reference points for verification. In this instance, however, given that Coronation Street spans over 7,000 episodes, I honestly have no idea which specific episodes these things happened in. That said, when I wrote the plot summary, I did it with the aid of Daran Little's book The Women of Coronation Street. The book covers everything up to Betty moving to Wimbledon and being convinced to move home by Emily, so I've added a reference to the book after that. For the more recent storylines, I've added in references to online sources which verify everything since the publication of the book.


 * Coverage
 * To the best of my knowledge she hasn't. I can't think of who you mean wrt Fred Elliot, but in recent times Maggie Jones and Barbara Knox have taken extended absences due to illness, so perhaps that's it?


 * Images
 * I've re-written the fair-use rationales for each of the images, focusing particularly on strengthening the 'purpose of use' and 'replaceable?' sections to comply with NFCC#8, and I hope they're now sufficient.

I hope that covers the majority of your concerns, and look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks again for your review! Frickative 17:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Great work! I've decided to pass the nomination, and list the article at WP:GA. Well done! Matthewedwards : Chat  21:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Pass/Fail: