Talk:Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones)

Episode title
As far as I understand the title of the episode was not "Beyond the Wall" but "Death is the Enemy". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.164.196.186 (talk) 09:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That was the quote HBO used for advertising everywhere from Beric Dondarrion's speech in the episode, but not the actual title. This was discussed at Talk:Game_of_Thrones_(season_7). And yes, apparently some other companies got fooled with the name too. —   IVORK  Discuss 11:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Actual title is neither "Beyond The Wall" nor "Death is the Enemy". It is "Brothers Beyond The Wall" according to HBO. -Red marquis (talk) 20:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * At HBO it says "Beyond the Wall". Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * This video is the only source that I can find calling it "Brothers Beyond The Wall". Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The other page Brothers Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones). -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You're right. My mistake. I should have done more research before making any significant changes -Red marquis (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Can we drop the geographical subheadings in the plot summary?
This episode is fairly unique in GOT, in that it has essentially one linear story taking place in two locations, and one very small side-story that could be summarized in a single short paragraph. With most episodes, we don't know the sequential order of events so we group them, sometimes clumsily, by location, but here we know that Daenerys and Tyrion received the message from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea after Gendry got back there, and we know that Gendry's leaving the group to Daenerys's arrival took place almost entirely while the wights were waiting for the ice to refreeze.

This, as well as the fact that the second-to-last scene takes place at sea somewhere, specifically not beyond the Wall, makes me really think that having one paragraph beginning "At Winterfell," one short paragraph amounting to "On Dragonstone, Daenerys and Tyrion discuss their war with the Lannisters and relationship with Jon Snow.", and the rest of the events just being told in the order we see them, without subheadings, would be better.

Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 13:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree per above, it works in traditional episodes but not all. —   IVORK  Discuss 15:59, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, too. I was about to start editing the episode summary, and was puzzling over how to handle it.  For this episode, the geographical subheading don't work well.  They were already tricky last week, with the Dragonstone characters having King's Landing scenes in the middle of the episode.  --DavidK93 (talk) 20:05, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, none of it makes much sense. According to preston Jacobs, who's usually right on these things, in the time the wights were waiting for the water to freeze, Gendry ran probably no less than fifteen miles in a snowstorm, the Eastwatch raven flew around 2,000 miles, and Dany then flew more than that distance... Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 22:09, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Could write the plot like this, with a small bit in past tense about Daenerys ignoring Tyrion.

At Winterfell Arya confronts Sansa about the letter Sansa wrote in favor of Joffrey and the Lannisters. Sansa explains she was a child and threatened by Cersei, but Arya rejects that reasoning. They argue over how neither of them saved Ned, and Arya accuses Sansa of mainly being concerned that she will lose face with the Northern lords if the letter is made public. Sansa confides in Littlefinger, who suggests that Brienne, sworn to serve both sisters, would intervene if Arya acted against Sansa. However, when Cersei summons Sansa to King's Landing, Sansa sends Brienne as her representative, despite Brienne's protests and desire to protect Sansa from Littlefinger. Sansa searches Arya's room and finds Arya's faces. Arya discovers Sansa and explains her Faceless Man training. Arya says she could take Sansa's face, then seemingly threatens her with the Valyrian steel dagger before instead leaving her with it. At Dragonstone Tyrion suspects Cersei will lay a trap when they meet. He questions how Daenerys, who is barren, can establish a legacy that will outlive her. She refuses to discuss the succession before ascending to the Iron Throne. Tyrion asserts that Jon is the latest "heroic" man to fall in love with Daenerys. Beyond the Wall Jon, the Hound, Jorah, Beric, Thoros, and Gendry journey north beyond the wall with Tormund and other Wildlings. They have various personal and philosophical conversations. Jeor had given Jon his family sword, Longclaw; Jon offers it to Jorah, but Jorah insists Jon keep it. An undead polar bear attacks, killing a Wildling and savaging Thoros, who had pushed the Hound out of harm's way, before they kill it; Thoros's wounds are cauterized and he continues. Jon destroys a White Walker with Longclaw, and all but one of its small group of wights instantly collapse, inanimate. They capture the last wight, apparently turned by a different Walker and thus still animate. A horde of wights approaches; Gendry is sent alone to Eastwatch to send a raven to Daenerys while the others are trapped on a small island, separated from the wights by a collapse of thin ice. Thoros succumbs to his wounds. Gendry barely reaches Eastwatch, but manages to get a raven sent to Daenerys. The water re-freezes and the wights attack, killing several Wildlings and nearly overrunning the party. Daenerys arrives with her three dragons, having rebuked Tyrion's protests to "do nothing", and the dragons burn many wights. The men try to evacuate on Drogon but the wights continue to attack; the Night King kills Viserion with an ice spear, and Jon stays on the ground and urges the others to flee with the captured wight. After Jon's allies leave, Benjen arrives and gives Jon his horse, falling to the wights while Jon escapes to Eastwatch. Jon recuperates aboard a ship. He apologizes to Daenerys for Viserion's death; she accepts the loss as the cost of her learning the truth, and she vows to fight the Night King. Jon calls her 'my Queen' and believes the Northern lords will come to accept her leadership. Daenerys hopes to be worthy of that trust. The Night King reanimates Viserion, adding the dragon to its army.


 * T ed E dwards  22:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Why not combine geographical subheadings - eg 'Beyond the wall & Dragonstone'. Okay, it's not been done before, but as noted this is one of the first timnes we've had this sort of situation. 46.226.49.230 (talk) 07:45, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * , you're right; that worked out well. --DavidK93 (talk) 16:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Missing history
Did the edit history get lost? Can it be repaired? , correctness of the title change aside, it looks like you didn't use the regular mechanics for moving an article to another title, which I believe preserves associativity of talk pages and edit histories. Or am I mistaken? --DavidK93 (talk) 20:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It is at Brothers Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones). I guess we can try to request a Requests for history merge, but it appears as if to me it may be a case of WP:Parallel histories. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

could you please explain what you did? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm actually faily new to my WP:PAGEMOVER access so not too sure how to / if us mere mortals can figure this one out. This page currently has the Brothers history, whilst the actual redirected Brothers Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) page has the origional one I had origionally moved from Death is the Enemy. —   IVORK  Discuss 21:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Merged from User_talk:IVORK 22:54, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Could you take a look at my contribution history real quick? Specifically the fact that the Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) article was moved from its page to an incorrect title and then recreated by someone else. Do you have any way to move the page back, so that the article history is preserved? Calibrador (talk) 22:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * G'day, yeah had swapped the origional page and Brothers Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) which moved the histories but not the actual content... I'm not too sure how it worked and can't seem to get the script they used working. There's a discussion on the talk page about it, will probably alert an admin soon if he's not back. Cheers  —   IVORK  Discuss 22:06, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I am waiting for a reply on the talkpage but I suspect it was a copy and past move and therefor no script was used by the other user. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I assume it is to do with the log on the Brothers page being

'' (cur | prev) 06:03, 22 August 2017‎ Emir of Wikipedia (talk | contribs)‎ m. . (2,536 bytes) (0)‎. . (Emir of Wikipedia moved page Talk:Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) to Draft talk:Move/Brothers Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) without leaving a redirect: Round-robin history swap step 1 using [[User:Andy M. Wang/pageswap|pages...) (undo | thank)
 * —  IVORK  Discuss 22:21, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It looks like it was copy and pasted as shown in this edit. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * So best solution would be to do a swap without talk pages with that script and copy accross again? —   IVORK  Discuss 22:33, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That could be an option. could you please clarify if what you did was a cut and paste move as described at Copying within Wikipedia? If so then a histmerge might be a better option. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't hold out hope on them responding. Calibrador (talk) 23:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Why should I not hold out hope? If they don't respond promptly I'll just put in a request at Requests for history merge and let the admins deal with it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:25, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Well it has been nearly 4 hours since his last edit and coming on 8am (work time) in his timezone. If it's an actual merge and not something that is going to remove what this page currently has then no dramas I guess Disregard, template already placed. —   IVORK  Discuss 00:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Terminology for Making a Wight
Some edits have described the Night King "resurrecting" Viserion. I think we should avoid that word and use "animate" or perhaps "raise." "Resurrect" means "to raise from the dead" or "bring to life again." This can be a little ambiguous in a setting such as GoT, where we have seen death reversed in multiple different ways. Characters returned to life by the Lord of Light, such as Beric and Jon, are actually alive again; they have been resurrected. Beings animated by the Night King, on the other hand, are undead; note that we say "undead" instead of "alive," even though "un-" normally signifies negation and "alive" is obviously the opposite of "dead." I think using the word "resurrect" in conjunction with wights is inadvisable, because it could create confusion over which specific magical process they are undergoing. --DavidK93 (talk) 15:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC) Agreed —   IVORK  Discuss 22:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 22 April 2019

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move, after extended time for discussion. bd2412 T 15:42, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones) → Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones episode) – To distinguish from the location in the show and A Song of Ice and Fire (Beyond the Wall). An ordinary reader who is not familiar with the subject wouldn't be able to tell if they'll go to the article about the location or the episode. This move would also bring consistency with other episodes named after locations and characters, per the ongoing discussions at Talk:Winterfell (Game of Thrones), Talk:Dragonstone (Game of Thrones), and Talk:High Sparrow (Game of Thrones) Keivan.f  Talk 03:31, 22 April 2019 (UTC) --Relisted.  Paine Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 15:26, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Relist note: members of both WikiProjects with banners on this page have been notified of this discussion. There is a similar and well-supported RM at Talk:The Long Night (Game of Thrones episode) that is related.  Paine Ellsworth , ed. put'r there  15:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:NCTV which specifically says to use only the show's title in the disambiguation except when the title is the same as an episode, character, or other element from the show which has its own page. Beyond the Wall is a DAB page - the fictional location does not have its own article, and so extra disambiguation is not supported by the guideline. A hatnote on the episode's article is sufficient to aid readers. -- Netoholic @  05:42, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Neither of the other two fictional locations (Winterfell and Dragonstone) have their own pages, and as I said my main reason to nominate this page for a potential move was to bring consistency if the other two pages were to get moved. By the way, guidelines are not holy verses, so it's possible to sometimes consider some exceptions when it can be deemed appropriate. Keivan.f  Talk 16:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per common practice and recent discussions over at NCTV. Beyond the Wall (A Song of Ice and Fire) exists (and for which I created the alternative Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones location)) and which leads to a completely different (section of an) article than Beyond the Wall (Game of Thrones), and both refer to elements of the television series. As such, this is a clear case of article title ambiguity. --Gonnym (talk) 08:15, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Neutral This isn't like "Dragonstone" or "Winterfell" where the title is a simple placename with no valid alternative; "north of the Wall" and "the North" are both used to refer to the same region as "beyond the Wall". Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 14:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Because there is Beyond the Wall (A Song of Ice and Fire) that refers to the location. -- Kailash29792 (talk)  14:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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