Talk:Bhavacakra

Two forms of the wheel of life
I removed the image placed in the article by Jketola. He states: "The following diagram illustrates the basic wheel of life. More elaborate versions of this motif have been included in much of the art of these faiths." From my understanding, this symbol is the icon for Buddhism; a wheel with eight spokes represents the Noble Eightfold Path. The Wheel of Life rendition is similar but is more of a complex illustration (probably too gracphically intense of wiki at this time). If I'm mistaken or someone wishes to develop this article further, lets discuss. Be well. Usedbook 23:51 24 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, the Wheel of Life is an abstract concept that has been illustrated in different ways by different people at different times. Both wheel_of_life.png and the wheel in the Flag of India (q.v.) symbolize the Wheel of Life, but neither is in any way more "authentic" or "correct" than any other.. Mkweise 01:41 25 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Your correct, there is a connection, so I'll restore his contribution. Specifically though, the wheel and image on the flag of India, as I understand it, is actually the Dharmachakra (or in Pali: Dhammacakka). It is similar to the ancient symbol of dharma, which has been given over 50 definitions over the centuries. Usedbook 20:39 25 May 2003 (UTC)


 * There are two primary forms of the wheel of life. One form is six- or five-spoked and used in all the dharmic religions. The other form is eight-spoked and used primarily in Buddhism. I have rewritten the article to detail the differences between the two as well as how they are related. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 21:21, May 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * I guess this is a long dead discussion, but for the record, the Dharmacakra is the "wheel of Dharma," not the "wheel of life," and the eight spokes, symbolize the noble eightfold path.  It is a representation of the metaphor "putting in motion the wheel of dharma."  If it has any relation to the Bhavacakra it would be a matter of cultural evolution I would think.  The Dammacakra was around long before anyone had thought of the word tantra.  OldMonkeyPuzzle (talk) 07:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

thanka from Nepal
I have a thanka from Nepal with this on it, and could provide a photo if it's ever needed. It's genuine and one-of-a-kind. --DanielCD 02:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Split
This article confused the Wheel of Becoming (Bhavacakra) with the Wheel of the Dharma (Dharmacakra). These are two totally different symbols which differ greatly in appearance, and differ totally in meaning. The Dharmacakra is an auspicious symbol that reminds one of the Buddha and his teaching. The bhavacakra is a didactic tool representing the miseries of samsara. I therefore separated them out into two articles, leaving the Bhavacakra material under "Wheel of life". The Dharmacakra material has gone into an article titled Dharmacakra. I have made a few other edits for the sake of simplicity and accuracy. RandomCritic 08:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not being an expert in this topic, I have no objection to your changes, however since you are making major changes it would be wise to supply sources documenting the information you are adding. Could you help strengthen the reliability of Wikipedia by citing your sources? --Blainster 20:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * RandomCritic is correct. RC - do you have any material on the source of the diagram?  I recall a distant teaching whereby it was explained that this came from India, and was not developed in Tibet.  Apparently it was used as a didactic advice to a king, who found it so useful, he wanted it to be painted on the walls of each monastery in his domain. Well.. that's what I recall, but I may be mistaken! :P (20040302 09:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC))

three part yin/yang
There is also sometimes seen a three part yin/yang, what does that signify? Chris 17:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

additional redirect to bhavacakra?
hi all,

would it be possible for someone more wiki-savvy than i to add a redirect from "bhava chakra" or "bhavachakra" to the current article? in america, it is quite common to see "chakra" as an alternate romanization of "cakra". i had a difficult time finding this article until i searched for "wheel of life" due to this problem. thanks!


 * Bhavachakra already redirects to this article. I've never seen "bhava chakra" written as two separate words in any source. RandomCritic 15:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Another wheel of life
A very different wheel of life, although I'm not sure where it comes from, breaks your life up into 8 different areas, which are roughly:

personal growth

significant other/romance

fun and recreation

friends and family

physical environment

money

health

career

I'll try to find a little more about it, or find someone who knows more than I.--Alancurrie78 07:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Face of Glory
If there aren't any reliable refrences to this, I think it should be deleted as it does not correpsond with the accepted symbolism. Jmlee369 08:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Sections of the wheel
The sections of the wheel make more sense if they are described from the center outwards, as done in the references below. This is because the center of the wheel represents the "cause" of karma (the second layer) which leads to rebirth in the six realms (the third layer). So I intend to rearrange the accordingly and add a brief overview. It's a big change, but I'm sure that it will make the page more clear. If anyone has concerns about the change, or if I am missing some etiquette, please let me know. Dorje108 (talk)


 * The Dalai Lama, The Meaning of Life, translated and edited by Jeffrey Hopkins, Boston: Wisdom, 1992, page 42.
 * Ringu Tulku, Daring Steps Toward Fearlessness: The Three Vehicles of Tibetan Buddhism, Snow Lion, 2005 page 30. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Six realms
When referring to the six realms, the term realms is the preferred term in most translations, rather than worlds. These realms are fluid and over lapping. The animal realm, for example, means being born as an animal--it is not a separate world from the human realm. Dorje108 (talk) 20:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Figure holding the wheel
I removed the references to Kala the lord of time since I am not sure if it is accurate. It may be a valid comment, but none of the references that I am aware of specifically refer to Kala. So I think best to leave it off until there is a good citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Abstract image
Regarding the abstract image of the bhavacakra that someone has now twice added towards the top of the article: this is a very interesting image, but it is not a traditional "bhavacakra". It is also not clear who the source is for this image, and according to the WP guidelines, these articles are not a place for original research; content in WP articles should be based on "secondary sources". For these reasons I am removing the image from the top of the page. I am leaving the image in the gallery of images on the article, because it is an interesting perspective and in the context of the gallery, it is less likely to confuse readers. Dorje108 (talk) 03:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the other edits by Whitehex, please don't change terminology arbitrarily. If you wish to suggest alternative translations for Sanskrit terms, please do your research and provide your sources. Your sources should be from published authors who are respected in their field. Please refer to the Wikipedia guidelines. Dorje108 (talk) 04:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Placement of traditional Indic/Tibetan script
I've added infobox for Buddhist terms to the page (Template:Infobox Buddhist term), and I've put the Indic (i.e. Devanagari script for Sanskrit and Pali) and Tibetan script (i.e. སྲིད་པའི་འཁོར་ལོ་) into the infobox. I am removing this script from the lede sentence to make it flow better.

That is, I am changing the lede sentence
 * FROM:
 * The bhavacakra (Sanskrit; Pali: भभचक्क bhavacakka; སྲིད་པའི་འཁོར་ལོ་ srid pa'i 'khor lo; Devanagari: भवचक्र) is a symbolic representation of ...
 * TO:
 * The bhavacakra (Sanskrit; Pali: bhavacakka; Tibetan: srid pa'i 'khor lo) is a symbolic representation of ...

And the traditional script will appear in the infobox as mentioned.

So far, there isn't a clear standard for how to present the Sanskrit/Pali translations, but there is some consensus in this discussion: Thread from Talk:Buddhism#Buddhist terms template

I am going to add additional comments/suggestions to this talk page (Template talk:Infobox Buddhist term) when I get a chance. Dorje108 (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Bigger Images Needed
I can't make them out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.11.210.76 (talk) 02:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If you click on any image on the page, you can view the image in full size. - Dorje108 (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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Western Psychological Interpretation
It is said in the article that it's a Western interpretation that of the six realms as being "different psychological states" (Mark Epstein), but the tibetan master Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche himself, used as a source for this article, interprets the six bardos also as broad psychological or mental states (inside the cyclical wheel of existence). You can limit that intepretation to only death and post-death stats (until reincarnation, or transmigration), but Chogyam Trungpa corrects that views right in the beggining of the discourse "Transcending Madness", dated from 1971, which turned into a book in 1982.

The first sentence of the discourse is the following:

"There seems to be quite a misconception as to the idea of bard, which is that it is purely connected with the death and after-death experience. But the experience of the six bardos is not concerned with the future alone; it also concerns the present moment. Every step of experience, every step of life, is bardo experience" (Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, in "Transcending Madness", pg 3).

Later he says,

"It is very important to know these type of worlds. The are not purely mythical stories or concepts of heaven and hell; they are also psychological pictures of heaven and hell and all the rest". (Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, in "Transcending Madness", pg 25)

In the back cover of that book, it reads the following sentence:

"Our experience of the present moment is always colored by one of six psychological states: the god realm (bliss), the jealous god realm (...)" etc.

So, the six realms of being can also be viewed as psychological states by the Tibetans, as Chogyam Trungpa seems to be saying.

If no one objects, I will insert this information in the article.

Thank you.