Talk:Big Brother: After Dark/Archive 1

Add Nudity, Hook ups, etc
I think it would be a good idea for anyone that updates the daily happenings to list any nudity, hook ups, etc. that happens in each episode since, let's be honest, that is what 95% of us are watching and hoping to see. On that note, Showtime should do a weekly recap of things like that each week like they do for Big Brother Australia. -Mrowlinson 22:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then go for it! I am in the 5% that does not watch it for those reasons. I like the bickering, and over-the-top shenanigans, though. - Jeeny Talk 23:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have time to do that, but I would guess the person writing up those summaries may. It was just a suggestion from what I was seeing reading various BB message boards. -Mrowlinson 04:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a good suggestion. I can relate about the time issue. Hopefully someone will take interest in building on the article. :) - Jeeny Talk 04:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ive edited the page for the past 4 days. There are hookup descriptions in there, but in a house this large, only the most important alliances are necessary right now to comment about. Smaller, less significant alliances are not necessary, especially if the show does not focus on them. And, there is no nudity to report so far. Nothing has been shown on BB After Dark, so I cant report. 75.43.222.191 07:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have been watching some of it too. People aren't yet tired of going way out of their way so they don't get caught naked, which is expected. Give 'em a few weeks. I think once things get going in a few weeks or so, things will really start to pick up with drama, hook-ups, etc. Should be interesting to watch. -Mrowlinson 06:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I watch it after I get off work at 9, so I miss an hour or so, but the message boards give me an idea about what went on so that I can write this update. I try to present the different events, but this is an encyclopedia, and should be formatted different then a casual message board. That is how I see it. 75.43.204.188 07:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do your best to spell the houseguests' names correctly! Daniele has one 'L', and Zach has no 'k'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.220.115.18 (talk • contribs)


 * Didn't Eric get naked numerous times? Or was that not on Showtime? Melanie 20:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Never on Showtime. - Rjd0060 20:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Nominations
Why is Mike highlighted as nominated. The veto ceremony hasnt happened for this week yet. It is still jen and kail on the block at this time.

Where is the table that shows who has been evicted....HOH.....POV.....nominated? I personally liked that being on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.194.30 (talk • contribs)


 * I removed it because it's duplicating content you could find on the article for the season. This article is about the Showtime Too show, not the minutia and recaps, like it has become. --William Graham talk 02:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Episode summaries
I think it's inappropriate to have what are basically recaps/summaries in this article. They have no context and are fancruft. I say we pair this article down to what the show is and move all the recaps into another article. --William Graham talk 01:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree. There's no need to create yet another article. However, if you feel strongly enough about it, see if you can get a consensus and I'll support the consensus.
 * PanzaM22 04:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)  Mike


 * Most television series have the following article structure, even if they're only in the first season:
 * Main article describing the series in general terms, main cast members and show format i.e. South Park, Heroes
 * List of episodes article with short summaries for each episode i.e. List of Lost episodes, List of South Park episodes AND/OR
 * Articles for each season with a season overview i.e. Lost (season 1), Lost (season 2)
 * (Optional) Articles for each episode with analysis i.e. Death (South Park episode), Confidence Man (Lost)


 * By leaving this as one article, we're asking this article to fulfill functions 1-4. If done that way it will grow to huge size, like it already is. I say we make this article be 1 and create a new article in the style of 2, because 3 is fulfilled by Big Brother 8 (US). Names to consider would be List of Big Brother: After Dark episodes, Big Brother: After Dark (season 1), Big Brother: After Dark (2007), or Big Brother: After Dark (Big Brother 8). --William Graham talk 16:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree as well. THis is not that serious of an event to create multiple articles based on episodes. Not everyone has ShoToo so its a good way to recap the events of the night to those who might not have access to it. THey have recaps for most other shows. 74.8.28.194 17:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm explicitly saying to NOT create episodes for every episode. I'm saying to have one article for the show in general and one for this season of the show. --William Graham talk 17:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * At this point, I disagree. If we were to split it up at this point, then the article would become a stub with an unneeded spin off article.  However, at some point in the near future we may have to do what you suggest, depending on later developments. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 22:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Good idea not right now. Wait until we can get more information about the program in general then once we have that information we can spin-off the episode summaries onto their own article. But if they bring BB After Dark back next year were going to have to do it anyway. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, sounds like the best idea for now. Right now the article is a little bottom heavy. I say we
 * Do a better job in the into and show info describing what it is.
 * Rewrite all the episode info to be encylopedic. Right now there is a lot of editorializing and unneeded info. I would say each one should be no longer than 2-3 sentences.
 * --William Graham talk 01:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that we should definately keep all episode summaries. However, maybe shorten them, like the one that I wrote for the Saturday (the 11th) episode.  Short and to the point.  Another thought is that maybe once the season is over, assuming that BB After Dark will be returning next year, move all the episode summaries to a new page titled something like "Big Brother After Dark 2007 season episode list".  But as far as removing them all together, that would be bad as many people I am sure use this page to get caught up on episodes, like they do with MANY other shows.  --  Rjd0060 14:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I couldnt agree more. I know people who use this site as a recap. I think once the season is over we can reorganize it. Have the main page be a description of what Big Brother After Dark is and then a link to the episode page, where all the episodes are listed on one page or if that is too long, just organize it differently.Rosario lopez 07:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We should decide weather or not these summaries should be only 2-3 sentences or not. I think that they should be, and the last couple summaries I added have been only 2-3 sentences, however somebody else (204.210.151.89) wants longer ones apparently, and adds a bunch of things. So we need to decide on this. -- Rjd0060 14:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's important to detail what has been going on. Sure it makes the article "heavy" but "heavy" with information.  I personally love coming here and reading a detailed synopsis of what is happening, rather than a 2-3 sentence blurb.  74.8.28.194 19:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV needed in summaries
I find that the episode summaries are becoming increasingly biased. A good example of this is the statement "yet another slow and boring night". Also, the statement made about the houseguest not coming into the kitchen during the altercation between Amber, Jameka, and Dick, becuase they didn't want to get involved, is pure speculation. No one knows why they didn't make an appearance, we only see that they were absent. The article is starting to sound more like it belongs in the tabloids and not in a encyclopedic article. Dancehallqueen123 20:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually the fact that they (they meaning Eric and Jessica) spoke the following day about how they avoided Dick that evening, because they didnt want to deal with him. Sounds to me like that is not wanting to get involved.  As far as slow and boring nights, I dont believe that to be a biased statement at all, however I do agree that they should be removed as that statement does not constitute as a "highlight" of the episode.  Just my opinions.Rjd0060 23:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Protection for this page?
Hello everybody. If you will notice, or if you already have, Big Brother 8 (US) has been semi-protected due to unregistered users making changes to the page, which end up having to be reverted.

Now, I believe we are having the same problem, if not a worse one, with this page. Do you guys think we should get a semi-protect on this one also? The one for the BB8 page expires on September 2. I wish it wouldn't expire until closer to the finale, but nothing I can do about that, unless once the protect expires, we still have problems. - Rjd0060 17:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

--I am one of the anonymous users (lazy ones, just hadn't gotten around to creating an account) that had been adding content on the late July episodes as I catch up with them on TiVo. I don't think I added anything objectionable or inaccurate, but please feel free to tell me if I did. - supremegoddessofall 23:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since I have not heard any objections to this, I went ahead and requested Semi-Protection:

Semi Protection - Continued vandalism and speculation posted by anonymous users. Although there has been some beneficial posts by anonymous IP's, these users are causing more harm than good. Request for One Month as the show will be nearing an end then, and we won't have this many problems. - Rjd0060 19:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And that protection was APPROVED:

Semi-protected for one month. After the month has passed, the page will no longer be semi-protected. Acalamari 19:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

- Rjd0060 19:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Info needed
Friday, Saturday, and Sunday need episode recaps... I didn't catch these episodes or I would add the info myself. —TRAiNER4 (talk • contrib)  20:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC) Could someone please update this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.39.175 (talk) 00:04, August 30, 2007 (UTC)


 * I have every single episode on TiVo and am slowly working my way through the episodes and editing as I go. But I'm only on 8/13 right now, so please be patient.  If no one has edited the missing episodes by the time I get to them rest assured that they will be full of content once I get to them.supremegoddessofall 01:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Supremegoddessofall! We'll be patient. We appreciate it.Snowfire51 02:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. Thank you VERY MUCH.  I don't know what happened.  There used to be a bunch of people, and now nobody updates it.  It might be due to the semi-protection status of the page.  I wish those anonymous users who updated this would get accounts.  Thanks again.  - Rjd0060 03:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tags
Please see current discussion at Talk:Big_Brother_8_%28US%29 concerning spoiler tags on this article. Axem Titanium 02:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Additional contributors needed for episode recaps
I'm still winding my way through doing the more detailed updates for the August episodes, and will eventually get to the September episodes as well. However, I will be out of town from 9/1 to 9/8, so we could really use some more updaters for the newer episodes. I will be TiVoing them all, but it's unlikely I'll be able to do summaries for the newer episodes until the middle of September. Anyone else have the time to help out?supremegoddessofall 03:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Supremegoddessofall
Supremegoddessofall I will try to contribute more to updating I have been real busy lately and haven't been able to watch the show. Hopefully next week I can. Mgunter93 05:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Any help is appreciated! Even just short blurbs help - I will flesh everything out as I go through the episodes, but I probably won't finish all of them until a couple weeks after the season ends. - supremegoddessofall 06:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove Episode Summaries
External link (remember http:// prefix) I think that it would be better for the article if the episode summaries were just removed. And this article was deleted and Big Brother: After Dark was added to the main Big Brother (US) page. Or just do like the main article for the UK series does and put the companion shows in a separate article. The episode summaries here are not proving anything in my opinion. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 07:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, as you can see higher up on this page, people (including myself) think the summaries should stay. That's pretty clear.  So with that in mind, I don't think it would be good to add this page to the main article, since then it would be WAY to long with all of these episode summaries in it.  - Rjd0060 14:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagreed. Keep the summaries and keep it a separate article. - supremegoddessofall 22:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

End date?
Since the finale isn't until 9/18, does that mean we'll have a show for 9/16 and 9/17? If so, we need to add that into the page. - supremegoddessofall 03:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the same thing but I dont know and there has been no word from anybody about it. Shouldnt add anything until we actually hear something though.  - Rjd0060 15:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions
I think Daniele's power of veto wins is incorrect. For week 9-- didnt Zach win it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.123.105.3 (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Both Daniele and Zach won the power of veto week 9; it was a double eviction week. 138.119.97.62 19:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Opinions
Please don't put your own opinions while editing the article!Melanie 18:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Going to be missing a date
My TiVo decided to freak out, so I don't have Friday night's episode (9/14). So I need someone else to fill in that date. All the other blank ones I'll take care of as I get to those episodes. - supremegoddessofall 13:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

changed tenses
I changed all the tenses of the main part of the article to past tense, until there is an official press release stating that there will be a renewal of the spinoff series. Please do not change the tenses back to present until this is met. —TRAiNER4 (talk • contrib)  04:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Highlights
I've removed the "highlights" section, which seemed to be 140,0000 characters of unverifiable material with no apparent encyclopedic value. If any mainstream commentary sources have picked up on some events in this program, they can be cited, with references. --Tony Sidaway 16:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree with your edit, and I agree with your reasons. However, there was a consensus to keep that information and revisit its utility at the end of the season.  The reason I am telling you this is that your edit may be reverted, and we wouldn't want to edit war. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 17:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the edits made by Tony Sidaway (all except for the removal of the spoiler tag, as the tag is not needed, however I don't understand the reason he removed it which is: "This is NOT a fictional subject. Removing spoiler tag.". Do not delete all of that information without discussion and consensus.  - Rjd0060 19:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed the content in a bold edit, simultaneously discussing the removal. But that's enough about my conduct (which is perfectly unexceptional).


 * I think we obviously need to remove this because it's unsourced. Accordingly, I'll remove it again.  As I said in my original comment above, "If any mainstream commentary sources have picked up on some events in this program, they can be cited, with references."  This 140,000 characters of dubious, unsourced content should not be put back in its current form without an extremely good reason. --Tony Sidaway 19:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Tony here. This is a way excessive amount of stuff, and none of it is sourced.  Any consensus you talk of is a consensus between a very small number of editors on this page, and that doesn't mean all that much in terms of the project. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I also agree with Tony, but consensus is evidenced by a) the discussion between the editors on this page and b) the fact that the article went unchanged in basic format for over three months. Nonetheless consensus can change, and in no way does it mean that the previous consensus was right.  My only point in bringing up the consensus, is to give a heads up that his edits may be reverted (which they were) and to not edit war if it happened. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 20:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well it's funny how he doesn't answer a question that could help defend his decision to delete all of this info, which is does he feel the same way about all articles that contain episode summaries. - Rjd0060 19:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As an indication of the kind of writing we should be doing on this article, I've created a section called "Events in season 8" and kicked it off with a fully referenced account of an event in an August program that was discussed by an executive producer in Entertainment Weekly. Please expand and augment with sourced information. Properly sourced, please, not fan sites and the like, but preferably of the quality I've already added or better. --Tony Sidaway  19:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Plot summary removal
Hi,

Despite the extensive work in the article, I have unfortunately removed the plot summary sections.

The primary reason for this is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and more specifically, per WP:NOT:


 * {| style="border:black solid 1px" width="85%"


 * "... merely being true does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. In addition to other sections of this policy, current consensus is that Wikipedia articles are not simply:


 * Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on published works [including TV shows] ... should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's development, impact or historical significance, not solely a detailed summary of that work's plot. A brief plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.


 * }

The plot summaries were an scene-by-scene replay of the episode. A typical one – of many – read as follows:


 * {| style="border:black solid 1px" width="85%"


 * Wednesday, August 1: Jessica is playing with the small chess board and creating combinations of pieces that can “date” each other. She then creates a party scene with them; Dustin joins in with this as well. Dick and Zach talk about sports. Amber and Jameka are in the HoH bedroom talking about Jen and the game. Amber believes that she has power over Jen and can convince Jen to do what she (Amber) wants her to do. Amber gets told to “treat her microphone with respect” by Big Brother (she tied the cord in a bowtie); Amber apologizes and Jameka says she will find Big Brother a girlfriend. Dustin, Jessica, and Eric join in the conversation and they talk extensively about both Zach and Kail. Zach for some unknown reason, puts on a “wifebeater” shirt that only has a front side – the back has been ripped off. He puts on a “real” shirt and Dick throws a bunch of flour at him, which gets all over the clothes he had laid out on the bed. Zach says he’s coming to get Dick, who is waiting outside the little bedroom with more flour. Zach barricades the doors in the little bedroom by moving the beds. Dick then throws pita bread at Zach from the camera hole into the little bedroom. Zach tells Dick that he’s cleaning up the mess and finally lets Dick into the room. The people in the HoH bedroom send Eric to investigate what Dick and Zach are up to. Zach leaves the room and Dick puts a bunch of food in Zach’s bed, including macaroni cheese powder, pitas, and M&Ms. Dick actually breaks a slat in Zach’s bed by trying to jump across the bed. Dick is trying to escape the room before Zach can see what all is in the bed, but Zach is blocking the door; unfortunately this means Zach can’t reach the bed without letting Dick escape. Zach finally lets Dick and discovers the mess in his bed. Dick does eventually clean up the mess. Jameka and Kail come in to explore. Zach returns with some eggs in hand. Dick says “no eggs, they’ll make a mess.” Most everyone ends up back in the kitchen, where Jen is cooking food she can’t eat, since she’s on slop. We don’t see much of Nick or Daniele in this episode until late, when they are cuddling in bed together. Zach gets a bunch of baggies from the storeroom and appears to be plotting something, as he goes through various drawers in the kitchen and storeroom. Zach tears apart the ripped wife-beater from earlier and begins to put together something strange in the kitchen (presumably a “weapon” for use against Dick), which involves a jar, some tape, a rubberband, a little towel, olive oil, and a bunch of spices. He finishes whatever he is doing and puts a lid on it. He goes hunting for Dick and finds him, telling him he has something for him, but the shows end at this point.
 * }

There were many dozen entries of this kind. That is not what Wikipedia is for. The aim of an article is to provide a summarized reference of the subject - in this case a discussion of BBAD or similar. Not to re-enact it. We do not replay TV episodes here of everything that has ever been on TV, no matter how popular. We characterize them.

Article before edit: DIFF.

RFC also sought, to obtain extra eyeballs and independent views on this edit.

FT2 (Talk 21:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments

 * That seems like a reasonable application of the policy you cite. Good work. Stevage 06:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, at this point there should only be brief summary of the shows highlight episodes, (e.g. Jen eating food while on slop, the slap fight between her and Dick, etc.). Of course, any summary should have proper citation to an independant source.  Ramsquire (throw me a line) 16:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)