Talk:Big Brother 8 (American season)/Archive 2

Some early series reminders
OK, I've been working on Big Brother at Wikipedia for a few years now and I just thought that some points should be brought up:
 * Source all of your information.
 * All information must be referenced in a standard and Wikipedian manner. This means tags. For a good example of this please look at Big Brother 2006 (UK) and Big Brother 2007 (UK). I'm going to put more effort into this for this series and I encourage everyone to do the same.


 * Use correct grammar and spelling.
 * There is no denying this, Big Brother is mainly edited by fans who wants their edits saved instantly. As members of WikiProject Big Brother, it is our job to maintain a high standard of grammar and spelling. Please edit all of these points accordingly.


 * Update other Big Brother US articles.
 * The standard of articles about past Big Brother US series/seasons is not very good at the moment. Even Big Brother 7: All-Stars needs a lot of improvement. For example, I'll be doing work on Big Brother 3 (US) when nothing needing special attention is happening this season.


 * Look at recent Big Brother UK artcles.
 * Big Brother 2006 (UK), a good article, and Big Brother 2007 (UK) are the standard for Big Brother articles on Wikipedia. Use the innovations, styling, and formatting used on those articles to improve this one. Geoking 66 talk 22:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers
This is a message mostly from those posting from anonymous IP's... but please refrain from posting spoilers such as nominations before they have aired on the CBS broadcast. Those comments belong on discussion forums and/or spoiler websites, and not here on wikipedia. --Renrenren 13:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Renrenren, this has been debated many times, but the consensus has come to that the article be edited in real-time, not CBS broadcasts. Big Brother is 24/7, as such it should always be updated. Think of it this way, if reports came about a current event, would you update the article as news came out or wait for a televised edition and then update it? Wikipedia is to be updated as things happen, otherwise this is witholding valuable information. Geoking 66 talk 20:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thanks for the clarification.  I guess I'll just have to stay away from this page to avoid having the show spoiled for me.  The justification makes sense though.  Carry on!  --Renrenren 21:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Geoking66 that Wikipedia is a real-time medium and should be updated as information is available. SA Santa 13:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The "debates" I just read about this make absolutely no sense. You can't say "would you wait for TV to report news" because TV stations are the ones that DO in fact report news. I don't understand your logic. MMAfan2007 22:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Voting history table guidelines
I think that some guidelines compiled from previous seasons and international Big Brother articles need to be established: Thank you for reading and let's make this article at least a good article when Big Brother 8 finishes. Geoking 66 talk 18:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A vote row is unnecessary. People have constantly deleted it, but in concurrence with other BB articles, the evicted row should read, in wiki code " style="background:#FA8072" | Carole 10 of 11 votes "
 * The nomination note line should be placed on the row directly above the eviction row.
 * The thin grey lines above and below the actual votes are there for æsthetics and ease of reading. It also helps separate the different parts of the table.
 * Please keep spoilers intact. Despite the flack that I and other editors, such as T and Jeeny receive, it is the agreed-upon consensus that was created last year.
 * Please edit the table correctly. I don't know how many times that I've seen anonymous or novice users (no offence) edit the table with good intentions but erase box boundaries. These are important. Please preview the table and edit it accordingly. Do not erase "||" . That lessens the amount of boxes in a row.
 * The grey cell borders appear to be the same size throughout the chart. Is there a specific style code to use to make them thicker between the top and voting sections as well as the voting and results sections? - 72.199.139.175 05:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Eviction Week 2
How do you know Joe gets evicted? User:ScottAHudson 2:42PM July 17 2007
 * No one knows for sure until Thursday. Alucard 16 23:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Why was Big Brother Interactive Removed?
I have a question, does anyone know why the Big Brother Interactive feature was removed?

Here is the part in question:

Big Brother interactive
This year Canadian Broadcast network, Global TV, will be introducing an interactive Two-Screen Solutions game on their website, Big Brother 'In The House'. Viewers will be able to make real-time predictions as well as answer trivia and instant recall questions while watching the show. Example, "Who will be nominated?" or "Which HouseGuests will kiss this episode?". The Big Brother fan with the most points each week will win a TV, and the fan with the most points throughout the season will win tickets to the wrap party.

Big Brother House location
Would it be inappropriate to create a paragraph in the Big Brother article with the fact that the Big Brother House is not actually a house but Studio 8 at the CBS Studio Center in Studio City, California. Which by the way is where Yes, Dear was originally filmed.

Ratings
The premiere had a 4.8 rating with a 9 share. According to the Nielsen Ratings a rating point is equal to 1.152 million viewers. So a 4.8 rating would be 5.5296 million viewers, not the 7.401 million that the article states. 70.112.85.40 04:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to change the article to the proper ratings. I don't know anything at all how they're tabulated, and I'm really not interested enough to find out. I think Geoking has been taking care of that section. But, if you know differently, you can help! Thanks! - Jeeny Talk 04:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's 5.529m households, but 7.401m total, Nielsen recorded that. Geoking 66 talk 01:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Popularity Polls
Should the popularity polls be left out of the descriptions of the houseguests? I know this is just speculation, but doesn't it seem like there's a glitch in the voting system? The two most popular houseguests have hardly been featured on the show, whereas all of the guests getting air time are near the bottom, which just doesn't seem possible? Does anyone else agree that this is a reason to leave out the popularity ratings for now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.127.139.53 (talk • contribs)
 * It's "the Shabnam effect". She does poorly in approval voting, but would probably do better in disapproval voting. T (Formerly Known as FireSpike) 04:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Nominations...again
Please stop with the nominations for the show on big brother 8 do that on big brother after dark. I mean I knew Jen and, Kail would be nominaterd, but still sop doing it.
 * The banner at the top of the page is a warning that information before the broadcast, may and can be added. There are spoiler warnings too. And please sign your posts - Jeeny Talk 17:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Side-note - Please do not list post-veto nominations until they are officially made in the Veto Meeting (normally held on Mondays). - 72.199.139.175 05:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Okey, but could you at least take down the stuff on the side on the top of the page, because I like to check a couple of things on here and I see the thing at the side and it spoils it for me. So you have a table at the bottem so could you use that and just use the side to list nominations or put stuff up after nominations and veto.

Sorry I didn't take it down. I had to go somewhere and I put up my comment at the last second Seth71 16:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Now it's back so I will take it down, but as always the person will put it back up. Seth71 17:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I left a little note on the page asking that person not to put the table back up because it seems like they are not readint the discussion page. Seth71 17:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It belongs in the article. Do not remove it again. There is a notice banner on the top of page. Do not come to this page if you do not want to know about it, please! This is a project, which you can read about at WP:BIGBRO. Join it, if you want to change guidelines, and discuss it there. Thanks. - Jeeny Talk 17:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Houseguest Table
Should we do one of the contestant tables that we use in the Big Brother 8 page for all the other 7 seasons. User:ScottAHudson

Voting Table - Suggested Change
It's still hard to tell where the votes begin and end in the current version of the table. Instead of trying to have three sections in one table (HoH & nominees, votes, notes & results), why not combine the top and bottom sections? My recommendation can be seen below:

I know this would put the eviction and nomination note rows in a different location than the international versions. However, our voting table is already different since we have the extra (top) section. This change will make it easier to read the table. -207.114.205.130 18:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good, it is up on the page right now! User:ScottAHudson

I hate it. It's completely wrong and goes against the standard. I'm going to revert it back now despite the edit history. Geoking 66 talk 21:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * While I don't hate it, I don't like it very much, because it seems redundant. The heading already says what the table is, "Voting history", then there is this line that says "votes", If it said something else, maybe I'd go for it. But, I can't think of anything that would make sense. The thicker lines where at least of some visual help to distinguish the HG's and votes. While it is very minor, it's something. I wish the designation lines could be just a tad thicker, so they stand out more, but don't know how to do that. All-in-all I'm satisfied with the prior version. - Jeeny Talk 21:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Geoking66 - Wow, pretty strong reaction. Although I somewhat understandable seeing that ScottAHudson went ahead and changed it without letting everyone discuss it first.
 * Jeeny - Thank you for explaining some of the reasons you did not like the suggestion. Looking at where the table's code currently has the two designation lines, you can see that it's actually an empty row with light gray background cell coloring.  That line of code is

|- ! style="background:#CCCCCC;" colspan="12" |
 * Each time we consecutively repeat the above, the designation lines appear to get thicker. This is because the empty rows are stacking on top of each other.  Although the rows are empty, they have the gray background coloring and the gray cell border, which causes the illusion of thickness.  The below example shows how the current designator line uses the above code once between the post-veto and Amber rows, compared to the effect of the above code four times in a row between the Amber and Nomination Note rows.


 * Four times might be too thick, three may be OK. It's up for discussion.  I'm just tossing up ideas because I do want to help. (Sorry about the dotted divider, the divider and pre tags are one of my weaknesses.  :-/  - 207.114.205.130 23:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (Side-note for clarity - I was editing under this IP and 72.199.139.175 the past few days, but I've remembered my account info so I'll use this here out. - fmmarianicolon | Talk 02:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC))
 * I like that much better. Maybe 3? Thanks, fmmarianicolon! - Jeeny Talk 02:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about doing this for the table. Instead of having three, have one but make it black? This way one is good and the black is bold enough to separate the sections. If this is good I will update Seasons 2 - 7. I have fixed those seasons voting history to have the same look as Season 8 and so they could be read easier.

Alucard 16 06:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Simplifying the chronology
The chronology table is, in my opinion, becoming excessive. Why not either simplify it so that there's only a sentence or two per bullet point or make a separate article like Big Brother Australia 2007? Geoking 66 talk 04:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd go for a separate article but maybe wait a week. Then I would like to add Eric's tasks as America's player, under that heading in this article. It's a new twist, and there have been several editors adding the info under the heading, but it keeps being removed for the reason that it's in the chronology table. It's difficult to keep track of his tasks when they're all bunched up in with the other events, and I don't think they should move away from this page with the chronology table. IMO - Jeeny Talk 05:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like this idea too because it is very hard to find a specific item in the Chronology table. It has a lot of information it in (and it's only been 3 weeks!). A table could go something like this:


 * Just an idea, don't bite my head off for suggesting it :) - zachinthebox 16:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't bite...much. :p I like the idea. Let's see how others feel. Good job! - Jeeny Talk 17:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I love the idea. It is neatly organized. User: ScottAHudson


 * If we're having trouble managing the size of the article, this table won't help much. It's huge!T (Formerly Known as FireSpike) 21:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I do like how the table's organized feel. Good work zachinthebox!  However, I also concur with T that this table may also become quite large if if Eric can go the distance.  Also, the table doesn't include how/why Eric passed or failed the tasks.  One suggestion to reduce size:  in the tasks where viewers choose from all the houseguests, maybe we should state "All Houseguests" or "All Other Houseguests" instead of listed them individually. -fmmarianicolon | Talk
 * ok, how about this: zachinthebox 12:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I like it much better, particulary putting the reasons in footnote form! - fmmarianicolon | Talk 14:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * {| class="wikitable"

! style="width: 5%;" | ! style="width: 10%;" | Date Given ! style="width: 27%;" | Description ! style="width: 17%;" | Options ! style="width: 16%;" | America's Choice ! style="width: 8%;" | Status ! Task #1 ! Task #2 ! Task #3 ! Task #4 ! Task #5 ! Task #6 ! Task #7 ! Task #8 ! Task #9
 * Sun, Week 1
 * Who should Eric tell a sad story to?
 * All other houseguests
 * Kail
 * bgcolor=00FF00 | Complete
 * Tue, Week 1
 * Who should Eric vote for?
 * Amber, Carol
 * Carol
 * bgcolor=00FF00 | Complete
 * Thu, Week 1
 * Who should Jen nominate?
 * All other houseguests
 * Jessica
 * bgcolor=FF0000 | Failed 1
 * Sun, Week 2
 * Who should Eric get into bed with?
 * All other houseguests
 * Joe
 * bgcolor=FF0000 | Failed 2
 * Tue, Week 2
 * Who should Eric vote to evict?
 * Dick, Joe
 * Joe
 * bgcolor=00FF00 | Complete
 * Thu, Week 2
 * Who should Dick nominate?
 * All other houseguests
 * Jen
 * bgcolor=00FF00 | Complete
 * Sun, Week 3
 * With whose personal items should Eric tamper with?
 * All other houseguests
 * Jen
 * bgcolor=00FF00 | Complete
 * Tue, Week 3
 * Who should Eric vote to evict?
 * Kail, Mike
 * Kail
 * bgcolor=FF0000 | Failed 3
 * Thu, Week 3
 * bgcolor= | Pending
 * }
 * bgcolor= | Pending
 * }
 * }


 * Jen nominated Daniele and Dick rather than Jessica
 * Eric did "sleepwalk" into Joe's bed, but chose to leave rather than wait for Joe to kick him out
 * Although Eric tried to sway the house into evicting Kail, the house voted 7-2 against Mike

PoV symbol in the voting table
I don't think we should include the PoV symbol in the voting table. At first glance, I had to double-check whether the symbol in the rows for people who won the veto that week or the people whose nominations were vetoed. - fmmarianicolon | Talk 01:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Time in the house
Who is deleting information about the housemates' time in the house from their sections? It's supposed to be there. The sections are about not only the housemates' backgrounds, but also about what they did and their accomplishments whilst and eventually after being in the house. Geoking 66 talk 03:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Zach
Why was he removed from the houseguest list? User:ScottAHudson
 * He's there. Big_Brother_8_%28US%29 - Jeeny Talk 17:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Houseguest's images
Although I think it's a great idea, and thought of a way to do it before. But, I removed them because they were from the CBS site, and CBS's copyright statement which is below. Use of Materials Contained on this Site The Site contains material that is derived in whole or in part from material supplied by CBS and other sources, and is protected by U.S. and international copyright and trademark laws. No material (including but not limited to the text, images, audio and/or video) and no software (including but not limited to any images or files incorporated in or generated by the software or data accompanying such software) (individually and collectively the "Materials") may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way or decompiled, reverse engineered or disassembled, except that you may download one copy of the Materials on any single computer for your personal, non-commercial home use only, provided you keep intact all copyright and other proprietary notices. Modification of the Materials or use of the Materials for any other purpose '''is a violation of CBS's or such other sources' copyright, trademark and other proprietary rights. The use of any such Materials on any other web site or networked computer environment without CBS's express written consent is prohibited'''. (emphasis added) - Jeeny Talk 16:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I tried this last year (the images have been deleted). You can use one or two, but it violates fair image rules to use more than three. Geoking 66 talk 18:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A way that other articles have got around this is by taking a screenshot of the houseguests as a group or 2 or 3 smaller groups - counts as fair use as it demonstrates their partication in the show which would otherwise be unavailable. See List of The Apprentice candidates (UK) as an example. Seaserpent85 19:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've done a Google image search and can't find anything that seems appropriate, or useful. - Jeeny Talk 22:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing
I appreciate the addition of the housemates' time in the house, but please use proper tags. Geoking 66 talk 19:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Could we have the day numbers of the competitions inserted into the chronology table for the competition descriptions that do not have one?ScottAHudson 18:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems to be a good idea. 'T (Formerly Known as FireSpike) 21:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget the dates too. It's in the guidelines, and would make it even more easy to follow. Sometimes I see Day 11, with a date of July 26, in the references. But the eviction before the veto comp was something like day 13 July 27. (this is just an example, but it's a good one, if you look at the codes in the chronology section and look at the refs.) This is so confusing. We know the eviction dates, because it's a live show, but the other dates are hard to keep up on, and the Day number doesn't help without the date, especially when it doesn't add up. I dunno. JMAO. - Jeeny Talk 04:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Competition table
When were the following competitions held?

We should re-add the competitions table. It was not redundant. I thought it helped me remember the titles of the competitions and the days they were held. Of course the first competition was held on Day 1. ScottAHudson 22:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Butter Me Up (Food- Week 1)
 * 2) Hide and Seek (Veto- Week 1)
 * 3) Name That Pie (Food- Week 2)
 * 4) Cutthroat Christmas (Veto- Week 2)
 * 5) Mission Impastabowl (Food- Week 3)


 * Adding another table just for the competitions is redundant, because they are already listed in the chronology table. And with bullet points. As long as people add the names of the comps, then it should be helpful to remember. - Jeeny Talk 03:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * How about putting the days for the following competitions that are listed above into the chronology table User:ScottAHudson


 * I think that's a great idea! But, I was reading the WP:BIGBRO, and the guideline says not to put the day number but the date. For example, instead of "Week 1 Day 4, it would be - "Mon., July 9" or Day 4 July 9 - and so on. I have trouble knowing when "Day 21" was, so I lose track. I think the date should be added to all days that have the day number in the chronology table. I started to do it, but I don't know the dates. I just added the ones I knew for sure. I think that's the reason the project says to put dates instead, or beside the day. Don't you think that would be even more helpful? - Jeeny Talk 15:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Jen and her Fake-ness
I think Jen is a fake bitch and she is only there to boost her fame and her modeling career, what kind of woman would take down her picture just becuz she didn't look pretty enough, that is ridiculous, plus has anybody noticed how she eyes the camera. 216.93.76.124 02:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The discussion forum is thatta way *points to the cbs website* Frumfst 08:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Do not remove sources!
Please do not remove sources from articles, especially about the housemates. They're critical to the credibility of the article. I still don't know why people are deleting useful information about the housemates' time in the house; it's supposed to be there! Geoking 66 talk 04:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the biggest culprits is Melanie2408, see my comments on her talk page. Especially see her comment on my talk page here - Jeeny Talk 04:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Big Brother USA??
Why does Big Brother in the USA not follow the way it is played in the UK? The Uk concept of the game seems more entertaining and I think if US did it this wa it would draw better.
 * Big Brother in the US did follow the original rules when it premiered in 2000. But Season 1 did not perform well in the ratings which resulted in a format change for the US version beginning with Season 2. I think the game here in the US is getting somewhat predictable and CBS could use some new twists or have more than one or two twists per season. But due to low ratings from Season 1 is why the game starting with Season 2 has different rules. Alucard 16 21:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

What I'm stating is the twists that they have in Big Brother UK like intruders and other thigns like that

ratings
I hope ya'll don't mind me asking this question here because on the other big brother US page it can take forever to have a question answered, but is the ratings always around this area each season.Seth71 01:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * They're slightly down this year. However they do get higher near the end of the season (last year they reached 8m during the final three weeks). They also get higher during double eviction weeks. Geoking 66 talk 01:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)