Talk:Big cat/Archive 1

Wikijunior needs your help
There is a Wikijunior book on Big Cats, and we need some dedicated editors to whip it into shape. If anyone is interested in writing a children's nonfiction book, I encourage you to check out Wikijunior Big Cats. -- LV (Dark Mark)  18:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Clarity
I am a bit confused by the following.

"One area of distinction is that big cats can roar, but cannot purr whilst inhaling, only while exhaling. (The cheetah is an exception, being able to make both sounds.)"

Does this mean that big cats:

While exhaling can
 * Roar and purr
 * Roar only
 * Purr only

While inhaling can
 * Roar and purr
 * Roar only
 * Purr only

The addition of the cheetah statement only added to my confusion.

This statement at Panthera,

"Only these four cat species have the anatomical changes enabling them to roar, due to a modification of the shape of their hyoid bone."

noted the distinction (whatever it may be) as being unique to four species only, but this page includes several species that do not have that distinction. Perhaps there should be Medium cat for Servals, Ocelots etc.


 * I've clarified based on info in Purr (cats can purr or roar, but not both), Cheetah (Cheetah's cannot roar), Talk:Purr (inhale/exhale question), and Panthera --Sonelle 10:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * ALL cats can purr. Members of the genus Panthera are the only cats that can roar.


 * "Lions have been known to purr, contrary to popular belief. They only purr when exhaling, not while both inhaling and exhaling like house cats."[]


 * Bluelion 01:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Are the clouded leopards big cats?
I just reorganized the article, and noticed a significant discrepancy. Are the two clouded leopard species truly considered big cats? The normal clouded leopard doesn't seem to weight more than 20 kg/50 lb or so, and even the new Bornean clouded leopard isn't much bigger. That's well below the threshold mentioned in the article, and within the medium-sized cat range. | Pat 17:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's the confusion: Big cats vs great cats. The clouded leopards are considered to be great cats even though they are not big. And the cougar is considered to be a lesser cat even thout it is big. RastaKins 22:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no confusion. The clouded leopard is not a great cat because it cannot roar and it is not in the genus panthera. It is debateable as to whether or no it fits the description of a "big" cat, but I have seen it described as such in literature. I don't think lumping the clouded leopard in with the big cats should be a point of contention. --TaeKwonTimmy 21:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Panthera Lineage: Clouded Leopard, Lion, Tiger, Jaguar, Leopard and Snow Leopard....also Marbled cat. Also know as the "big cats"...snow leopords don't roar neither do tigers. The big cats can purr for short bursts.--dnlcaissie 21:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Do Big Cats have Retracable Claws or not?
Normal everyday small cats have retractable claws but do big cats have them,i would like some to write an article about this please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.192.32 (talk) 21:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We do not do your homework for you. Read the existing articles. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

removed dead link from article to wikijunior project
I removed from the article. It appears to be an error or dead link. Can anyone fix this?--Filll 15:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a dead link, the template parameters weren't filled out correctly. I fixed it. --192.193.245.16 (talk) 11:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Threats/Cats in Captivity
The "Threats" section states, "there are still an estimated 15,000 big cats kept captive in America." This was unclear at first as to whether it was the United States or the Americas, but checking the reference indicates that it's referring to the United States. I made this small change, but why is the United States the only country specified as banning their capture and keeping them in captivity? Is there someone who is knowledgeable of the threats expand on this section to include a global perspective? Kman543210 (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Cubs v. Kittens
This distinction is not a feature of big cats. It is a feature of the English language, and is not essential/substantial to the article's subject matter. Maybe it has a place in the article, but not in the lede. elpincha (talk) 16:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Big cats with little cats
Does anything peculiar happen if a big cat is placed in close proximity to a little one, such as a house cat? Does the little one become scared, do they get along, or anything else? --Impaciente 18:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Most likely the big cat would kill it or completely ignore it with a third option of scare it away. dnlcaissie (UTC)

The smaller cat might possibly try to approach to larger one... but only if it was brave, I suppose. The larger one would most likely ignore it, or, if pestered, hiss at the smaller cat. With that, the small cat would run away. NIN (talk) 16:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Janguarundi
Why isn't the Jaguarundi listed under Puma? Corvus cornix talk  23:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because it is not a big cat!!!--Altaileopard (talk) 15:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But it's Puma yaguarondi.  Corvus cornix  talk  04:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Cougars
They're in Felinae, not Pantherinae. Shouldn't it be mentioned in the article somewhere that despite being more closely related to small cats, they are at times described as "big cats"? 81.165.230.130 (talk) 09:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a proper term to use in articles?
The term big cat is confusing for those of us who have English as a second language. Felid is a more unambiguous term. Big cats are just large house cats for almost every other language... --Againme (talk) 14:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Pantherinae Merge
That page has essentially the same content. I'd suggest a redirect here. If people insist on the scientific page name it should be very clearly identified as referring to big cats since otherwise the ordinary Jill and Joe won't find it and we'll end up with people creating a new page again. Big Cats (capitalized) should also redirect here. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Cougars (aka Pumas and Mountain Lions) are NOT big cats. they are the largest of the small cats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.104.37.17 (talk) 13:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Cougars are larger than some of the so called "Big Cats". The term Big Cats and Small Cats is misleading as it implies the big cats are bigger, when that isn't always true. Some of the "small cats" members are larger than the "big cats". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.208.103.241 (talk) 15:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Dictions between big cats and small cats
Genetically there’s almost no difference between a big cat and small cat. In fact with out the fur it’s almost impossibly to tell one cat from another. So it’s only the living treats and the small genetic differences that can be used to distinguish a big cat from a small cat. Now most people would say that the ability to roar defines a big cat but only a lion can roar. Dnlcaissie....I think I wrote this:/ 

Hmm... you're right, only a lion can roar in a way that we would recognise. Big cats' skins, by the way, are usually coloured in exactly the same way as their fur - if you were to shave a tiger, it would look exactly the same, only a little smaller and less furry. The same is true with leopards, cheetahs, and jaguars. But not lions, obviously; they don't really have marked fur. NIN (talk) 19:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The way cats eat is a major distinguishable trait. Big cats eat while lying down, while small cats crouch with their tail pointed outwards. I don't know why the puma (cougar) is included here, though, because the article seems to relate to 'race'; the puma is only related to the big cats with its size, but is in the small cat family. Revan ltrl (talk) 17:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Big Cats
The article is about the laymans term "big cats" (eg cats larger then domestic house cats) and as such should not be limited to either Panthera or Felinae. If people are intersted in what classification the animals are they can click on the animals article link.

This article is getting way to technical and is attempting to describe what a scientist would class a "Big Cat" as instead of showing the meaning and usage of the term in everyday society.

In speaking with the average every day person they would consider and call Cheetah's and Cougars Big Cats (why? well because they are BIG) it may be worth mentioning the differences in a sub heading eg. explaining that scientists have defined Big and Small Cats and that Cheetah's are in a different catagory all together (Just to confuse us all).

Let me know what you think, it may be that we re-design and re-word the article to reflect the usage of the term "Big Cat" in everyday usage.

Helps to have a good discussion before making and major changes.

Regards ZooPro (talk) 14:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Im glad to see i got such a great response ;), I will give it a bit longer before i make any major changes. ZooPro (talk) 04:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the bet that if i change everything someone will complain.  Zoo Pro  09:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Cheetah is included (scientifically, despite its uniqueness) in the big cats category anyway, so their inclusion is unquestionable, whereas the Puma (Cougar) is not, scientifically. But if you mean that this article is all about size, then they both should definitely be included, as well as any cat bigger than the domestic house cat, like Bobcats, Ocelots and, Servals. Revan ltrl (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Cryptid
shouldn't there be a disambiguation page for the cryptids? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 23:09, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

roaring
members of genus Panthera can roar, the other big cats can not, aside from the cheetah. Lachatdelarue (talk) 15:30, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * What is roaring? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 23:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Dating contradiction
The Big Cats article refers to the splitting of Lion, Jaguar and Leopard, and both the text and the chart imply that the Jaguar split from a common ancestor of the Lion and Leopard at about 3.6 Ma. However this is contradicted by the jaguar article which describes the jaguar having arisen due to its common ancestor with the Leopard having crossed the Bering Strait land bridge at 2 Ma. I suggest the chart is mistaken and should be amended by swapping Lion and Jaguar - all books and online articles make it clear that the Leopard and Jaguar are the more closely related. 13:45, 28 April 2012‎ 89.241.144.197 (talk)‎. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.144.197 (talk) 13:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Poor Sentence Construction
What exactly is this sentence trying to say? Is it saying that the law made illegal such activity?

"The Captive Wildlife Safety Act (CWSA), which became law on September 17, 2007, makes the movement of most big cats, including those hybrid or generic big cats bred in captivity within the United States but does not require the registry or collection of trade data on these hybrids thus making it difficult to estimate size of this live animal business."

Whatever it's trying to say, it certainly isn't saying it as written. IrishCowboy (talk) 20:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I checked the source, and what was entered here doesn't seem to relate to the PDF. I've removed this with an AGF note to go back and try again. --Seduisant (talk) 02:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Conservation?!!
I don't understand what this Conservation section has to do with "Big cats." If it's a lead-in to a list of sanctuaries for large felines, then it's a bit wordy and detailed, but understandable. But for it to sit there by itself, as it does now, is a total non-sequitur. --Eliyahu S Talk 16:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Panthera
Snow leopards are in genus Panthera,it does not belong with cougars and cheetahs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.123.130.53 (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The article doesn't disagree with you. What specifically do you propose?  Acroterion   (talk)   01:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Snow leopards can't roar though, despite what it states in the page intro. Snow leopards are much smaller than cougars, which makes this "big cat v. small cat" conversation pretty useless because "big" and "small" is not a proxy for roaring cats v non-roaring cats. Big and small is all about size, not ability to roar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.203.176 (talk) 18:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Lynx Lynx not big enough ?
I just wonder why the Eurasian Lynx (Lynx Lynx) isn't mentioned about here `? Is it forgotten, not big enough or wrong elsewise ? 83.249.32.20 (talk) 14:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Not big enough, even though it's slightly bigger than clouded leopard, CL has special status here because it's in Pantherinae, while lynx are in Felinae. Editor abcdef (talk) 06:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Big cat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150402183351/http://panthera.org/popular_publications.html to http://panthera.org/popular_publications.html

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Merger with Pantherinae
The two articles are referring to the same thing, and cover much the same information. I propose that this article be merged into Pantherinae. Thoughts/issues? BearGlyph (talk) 19:20, 20 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Cougars are not in Pantherinae although they're widely considered big cats, yet clouded leopards are in Pantherinae but are smaller than cougars. So the two are not the same. Editor abcdef (talk) 01:38, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Conservation
The conservation section doesn't actually talk about big cat conservation; it just defines what a sanctuary is and does under US law. Sanctuaries don't really provide anything towards big cat conservation; conservation implies planned management and steps towards sustainable wild populations, whereas sanctuaries basically provide animals a place to live out their lives without contributing to future numbers of the species. It would be a significant improvement to change this section to talk about things like [|Species Survival Plans] for big cats, taxon advisory groups, and in situ conservation efforts in big cat natural habitats. Thoughts?

Cbonesmith (talk) 04:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Page views
Leo1pard (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Cat-egory question
So I made a revert and returned category:Cats to the page, where it's been for awhile, and has been on the page on-and-off throughout its history, and also left the category:Felids which was put in its place. Pages are listed in two closely-related categories all across the encyclopedia. But I got reverted twice, even after pointing out that this article, 'Big cat', has cat in its name! May I ask why (and this should have been taken to the talk page with category:Cat left on after the first revert, at least how I'm reading it. But never mind, I've done the same thing too many times to complain much about it)? Randy Kryn (talk) 21:24, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , hi, and I should have pinged you above. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Per this discussion (non-discussion) putting back the logical category listing, category:Cats. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:46, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Two minutes after taking the results of this non-discussion to mean that it was okay to add back category:Cats, it was reverted again by . So may I again ask why you believe that the article "Big cat" wouldn't fit category:Cats (the common name) as well as the un-common name category? Many pages are linked to two similar but differently searched categories. And have you seen the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cats page, which abounds with big cats? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The Cats category is for the species everyone calls a cat. Georgia guy (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually it's not, and is about all cats, as is the WikiProject Cats. But how about a Wikipedian-like compromise - a new category named Category:Big cats. That one can include lions and tigers and bears (not bears), and be a subcategory of category:Cats and other categories. There is already a category:Big cats in popular culture, so we're half-way there, and that category could also be a subcategory in the category. Make sense? Randy Kryn (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Have created category:Big cats, which should clarify the topics under discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Why
In the lede, genus Neofelis (clouded leopard) has been included in the liberal classification. But in section Species they are left out (unlike genus Acinonyx and genus Puma). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Let me look into that. Leo1pard (talk) 05:40, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

A history of this classification?
Hmmm. When I went to high school, some 50 years ago, our biology teacher taught us something completely different. She taught us that:

- There are three criteria that determine whether a particular species is a big cat or a little cat. - One of them is the way it sits (or possibly lies). I do not remember the other two. - Despite its size (which is NOT one of the criteria), the domestic cat is actually a big cat.

Now, obviously, this does not match the article at all. So, was Joan Williams right at the time? Was any of the above true at any time? If so, then how, why and when was it changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.94.251 (talk) 08:45, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I have had an interest in cats, big and small, since I was a child and have read extensively on cats ever since and this is the first time I've seen that claim. I'm pretty sure domestic cats have never been considered big cats. Firstly, they are small relatively and size is one agreed criterion for being a big cat. Secondly, they purr rather than roar, a criterion for one restricted definition of big cats. As for how they sit or lie I think all felids are be similar, with the possible exception of the cheetah. There are a number of other ways where they are similar (see here and here), but that doesn't make them big cats.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 10:23, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

What is a big cat?
I've tried to argue this before, but the opening sentence of this article is wrong. The big cats is not another name for the genusPanthera, which are sometimes known as the the great cats, which is not the same thing.

A starting point should be Turner and Anton's The Big Cats and Their Fossil Relatives: An Illustrated Guide to Their Evolution and Natural History, a book actually about big cats. There the extant big cats are the five Panthera species, the puma and the cheetah. This is what I have always understood. Occasionally the clouded leopard(s) get added. The use for Panthera alone or even just the roaring cats is rare rather than typical. The reference cited (Davis et al, 2010) does seem to use big cats for the Panthera in the title and parts of the text, but the summary says the pantherine lineage "consists of the five big cats of the genus Panthera, the lion, tiger, jaguar, leopard, and snow leopard, as well as the closely related clouded leopard", and the introduction says something similar. This is entirely consist with the broader definition and doesn't say or imply that they are the only big cats. Given they are not consistent in use of the term, it shouldn't be used as a source to define big cats in the opening sentence of the article, especially when it differs from more authoritative sources. Moreover other parts of the big cat article seem consistent with the magnificent seven definition.—  Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Planned Edits
I am planning to expand the conservation section to include international efforts and to edit the species section to be cohesive rather than bullet points. Matchalatte10 (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Section Species
As the opening Teyxt mentions Clouded Leopards sometimes being included, the Neofelis genus of the Pantherinae subfamily should probably also be included in the Species section of the article.--2001:16B8:67EA:3E00:2985:662F:338B:10D4 (talk) 02:42, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 7 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Gil6362. Peer reviewers: Brodyq4, Vanessa R Garcia, Yarelvaldez, Nick.Gonzal.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 16 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Matchalatte10.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)