Talk:Bilbo Baggins/Archive 1

The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins
The video has be taken off the site for the time being due to it being in violation of umpteen dozen copyright laws, but apparently the owners hope to get it back up there, so I'm putting the link here http://homepage.mac.com/evanbaumgardner/iMovieTheater6.html so it can be put back on the page when the video becomes available again. There's no point linking to a dead file. 62.252.32.11 00:34, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cleaned up and copyedited.
Made some minor edits and found no poor grammer. Avsn 20:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Infobar image
I don't like the image on the Infobar. Most people's vision of the character will be coloured by the film trilogy, and there MUST be a better image - see other main character pages for examples. Gtatler 16:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We could have an illustration from an old book in the intro and perhaps the movie character in the end. Shandris 17:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers
Don't you think that his biography = spoilers? "Spoiler/plot revealed"-tag? Shandris 17:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Filmatization mentioning
Why haven't we added something about that it will be filmed soon? link to GUF News article --Shandris 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm... did you read the article you linked to? It's a year old, and says that currently the muddy situation with the rights is an obstacle to the film actually being made.  It's always possible that the lawyers will find a solution, but at the moment there's no solid plan for the film to be made.  Since Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, we shouldn't say anything about such a nebulous prospect. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is OK to mention news reports about the possibility. Until it is made. And it almost certainly will be made. Carcharoth 23:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The life span
On the life span part did he die on September 29,3021. -- 70.187.27.179 14:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The date of Bilbo's death is unknown except that it was some time after that point. --CBDunkerson 18:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Not the only one
Samwise Gamgee also gave up the ring voluntarily in Return of the King OrangeDog 22:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Bilbo being the oldest living hobbit
it says in the article that bilbo is the oldest, isnt gollum the oldest?
 * The oldest hobbit ever from the Shire. Sméagol wasn't from the Shire. Uthanc 15:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Smeagol also wouldn't have considered himself a 'hobbit', as that term was developed in the Shire. The earlier 'holbytla', from which 'hobbit' was derived, pre-dated Smeagol's ancestors splitting off from the ancestors of the shirefolk, but is unlikely to have evolved the same way and would not neccessarily have been adopted as a 'group name' of the people themselves. The only such descriptions given for them are 'Stoors of the Angle' and 'river folk'... which may or may not have been their own terms for themselves. Thus, saying 'Smeagol was the oldest living hobbit' is rather like saying 'Cirdan was the oldest living Noldor'... it assigns him to an incorrect sub-group. Smeagol was the oldest known individual of the human sub-race of 'hobbit-kind', but Bilbo was the oldest known "hobbit". --CBD 13:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the name Bilbo
This is a query I have related to another article and maybe you, Tolkien enthusiasts, may help.

The name bilbo appears in classical English as a type of sword (see Bilbo (sword)), which is mentioned by Shakespeare's character Pistol in the Merry Wives of Windsor:
 * Ha, thou mountain-foreigner! Sir John and Master mine,
 * I combat challenge of this latten bilbo.
 * Word of denial in thy labras here!
 * Word of denial: froth and scum, thou liest!

and is ethymologically linked to the Basque city of Bilbao (also known as Bilbo by locals and Bilboa in old English)

My question is: does anybody know for sure (and can document somehow) if Tolkien's name choice for this character was inspired by these cultural references (sword, Shakespeare)? I feel it's probably the case but I'd like to have more definite information, thanks. --Sugaar 22:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe better forget it. I made some online search and, while I found a vague reference in Hexapedia, I also found an article that says that there seems to be a teddy bear of the Tolkien family that had that name . --Sugaar 22:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * All this is interesting, and definitely worth putting in the article. Bilbo is a name that originated from Huguenot times in France, and from there went to the USA. For example, Theodore G. Bilbo. For the name history, see here. Put it in a section called "previous and later uses of the name Bilbo", or something. Carcharoth 23:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Bilbo Baggins' resources
What did BB live on? He had his dwelling, and a garden sufficiently large enough to employ a gardener on, some moneys from his travels: but there must have been other sources of income. Sam Gamgee states that BB taught him to write - possibly personal favour for the gardener's children, or indicating a career. (The moral of the story is - give enough background detail to keep plot-hole complainers and fanfic writers happy.) Jackiespeel 19:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Bilbo was "independently wealthy" through his parents. He is also stated as being the head of the Baggins family, and his property was evidently not just limited to Bag End, as the Sackville-Bagginses went through some trouble to have him declared legally dead at the end of The Hobbit, in hopes to acquire the title.
 * Given that the Hobbit economy seems to have relied on growing food for export to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains (Dwarves did not grow their own food, and they had to buy it somewhere — Dwarves visited the Shire and were quite well-known so this is quite likely) and limited export of Pipeweed (probably in the later Third Age first only to Bree, but later also to the Dwarves, and to the Men of Dunland [stimulated by Isengard]), we can assume that the Hobbit economy was an agrarian one. Certainly the Big Families all had their own ancestral lands, and the Farmer Maggot chapter indicates these farms were well-defended against thieves. Therefore Bilbo, as head of the Baggins family, probably got his income through his family's farmlands. When he left for Rivendell Frodo inherited all his possessions, again presumably including the Baggins Farms. Frodo sold Bag End (and ONLY Bag End) to Lobelia and Lotho, he must have remained the head of the family. And later he left Bag End (again, ONLY Bag End) to Sam: his distant relative Ponto Baggins inherited the family title, and presumably with it, the tithes to the Baggins Farms.
 * Now this is all speculation but it fits the facts well. It may also help explain why Gorhendad Oldbuck crossed the Brandywine in 2340 and created Buckland: his ancestral lands in the Marish were filled to capacity, and his growing family probably had no farmlands left. -- Jordi· ✆ 22:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Some things could be more clearly stated in the text...

There is room for research (though outside the remit of Wikipedia) on "the economic systems of fantasy worlds" and "Economic Planning for Heroes" (including how to get the best deal on insurance and pensions). As it says on the "Things I will do if I am ever the Hero" pages (linked with the Evil Overlord pages: "If I find myself born or drafted into a universe wherein the laws of nature do not obey consistent principles, I will depart for an alternate universe created by a more reasonable author. ") Jackiespeel 19:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Death
I changed the death from "Fourth Age" to "unknown." He departed to Aman, the land of eternal life, and it is unclear whether he, as a mortal being, would die there or live eternally with the elves. Any guess as to his death is pure speculation. Papercrab 20:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Tolkien's writings that I can't quote right now - that would be far too convenient, wouldn't it? - indicate that the land does not bestow immortality to those on it. Elves were created intransient and men (which includes Hobbits) transient as a most fundamental point. Tolkien goes on to note that the two Hobbits would be able to pass away "right" - with dignity and hope. "? Fourth Age" is the best alternative in the text. --Kizor 12:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Use of the One Ring
In the article, it says "He used the Ring to its fullest ability when the expedition was captured by giant spiders in Mirkwood, and also when Thorin and his companions were imprisoned by the Wood-elves."

I'm not sure that this qualifies as using the Ring to its "fullest" ability. Could it instead say "He used the ring extensively when the expedition . . ."?

Mhambster 21:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Translation
Do we really need all the translations? Carl Sixsmith 18:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No. (Other Tolkien articles for precedent - no translations for LOTR and The Hobbit). Plonked here: Talk:Translations of The Hobbit‎ Uthanc (talk) 09:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Name "translated"
I don't have any text cites handy, but as I recall, Tolkien says as part of the pretense that he was translating real ancient documents (Red Book of Westmarch), that the character's real name was Bilba, but that this was changed because "-a" is usually a feminine ending in English. This is mentioned in our article Westron. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 11:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Name "Bum Hole"
There is an entry listed as 'bum hole' under the family tree, is this correct?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.89.128 (talk) 12:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

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Bilbao?
Tolkien had a tendency to base personal and place names on places plucked off a map (eg Bag End) and in particular Spain (eg Aragorn (from Áragon)). Has Bilbo's name ever been linked with Bilbao? It's Bilbo in Basque.... Prof Wrong (talk) 09:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I see little evidence that Tolkien took names from maps. Almost all of the names were derived from components of his invented languages (like Aragorn, nothing to do with Aragón), or from Germanic languages, representing translations from the Mannish tongues of the Third Age. As names in the real world often reflect geographic information, Tolkien modeled that process in Middle-earth, too -- but the inspirations were all taken from the local geography Tolkien was familiar with, and generally conform to the linguistic framework he had already carefully constructed.  Bilbo < Bilbao is not credible. Elphion (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Tulip
The "Tulip Longhole" in the genealogy chart has been present ever since the chart was expanded back on 23 Jan 2006, but she is not from any Tolkien source I'm aware of. I'm removing her. Elphion (talk) 19:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Old comments
The article refers to Frodo as Bilbo's cousin, and in a strictly genealogical sense he is a second cousin once removed (or a first cousin once removed; he's both really). But in Tolkien's works Frodo is normally referred to as being his nephew, and as such I think it makes more sense to use the term nephew. --Adanadhel


 * First and second cousins once removed? How do you figure?

Just noted all designations. Uthanc 14:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we should add more of his adventures in The Hobbit and his subsequent social standing in the Shire, including him being regarded as 'odd'. Just a thought :) --Sam

As for dates, I had thought that Month Date Year T.A. is an acceptable notation. I don't think it's quite necessary to repeat 'of the Third Age' each time. Parelle
 * I agree. Even if the 'T.A.' didn't make it clear that these are dates in a fictional universe, the 3000ish years should. 'Of the Third Age' is cumbersome and repetitive. Korath

Rivendell, then Mirkwood?
I don't have my copy of the book handy, but didn't Bilbo go first to Rivendell BEFORE Mirkwood?

The following passage makes it seem te other way around. It also needs a fullstop before "Here" or a change of sentence structure.

"This led to an adventure which takes Bilbo and his companions through Mirkwood, to Rivendell, eventually reaching Erebor, Here, after the mountain has been reclaimed by Thorin Oakenshield, the Battle of Five Armies takes place."

Kyle R.

I have a copy and I concur with Kyle - Bilbo went first to Rivendell, then Mirkwood.

ArM —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thealmostrealmccoy (talk • contribs) 00:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This was fixed ages ago. -- Elphion (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Bilbo's Weapon
Shouldn't Bilbo's weapon be Sting rather than nothing? Bilbo gained and used Sting during the events described in The Hobbit. He later passed it on to Frodo. Mikael Lind


 * Now moot -- weapon has been removed from character box. -- Elphion (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Title Character
Bilbo is the title character of the Hobbit, he is not a title character of the hobbit, that indicates there are more than one titular characters. This has been a stable assertion in the lead for a long time now. If anyone disagrees please discuss it here. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done )  07:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

aliases
Shouldn't there be more aliases since he gives smaug a list of them? If so, I'd happy to add them since i have a copy of the book.thank you Sincerely zeroro 06:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They're not really aliases, they're puzzles. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  07:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Band of the same name
There was a 70s British pop band of the same name which had a hit with "Back Home": They recorded at least six singles/EPs:. In May 2013 front-man Colin Chisolm appeared on BBC's The Voice:. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

eleventy-first birthday
I was under the impression that an eleventy-first birthday was actually the 133rd birthday due to the base-twelve number system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.184.36 (talk) 01:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Bilbo was born in T.A. 2890; the party was in 3001, hence 111 years (base 10). -- Elphion (talk) 07:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

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"Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Bilbo Baggins" listed at Redirects for discussion
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Do we need the family tree
I really do not see why we need the family tree. Yes, it is sourced, but to the primary source. Anything we really need to know about Bilbo is said in the article text, and I do not see why we need such an over developed focus on minor fictional backstory elements.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Calm, please. It shows directly the family as imagined by Tolkien, including the not-quite "uncle" relationship of Bilbo and Frodo. If as it seems we are losing the Baggins of Hobbiton article then this is a suitable place for an indication of the key hobbits' relationships. Facts that they are imagined in a large family but are themselves childless are shown rather than told, in an OR-free way, by the tree. I'd say it was more than justified. What we need here and in all these articles is better use of the (abundant) scholarly sourcing that is available. The scholar Jason Fisher points out that the family trees help to ground the work in a hobbit's way of thinking, stating that they had "predilections for genealogy", and as Tolkien states, they were "clannish and reckoned up their relationships with great care". I'll add something to this effect, and a citation, now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not going to calmly stand by and let you litter these articles with unneeeded junk. We do not need huge family trees on articles. This is the type of harrassment and presenvantion of unneeded matierial we do not need. Once we move outside of AfD, the presenvationsist of Tolkiencruft try to harrass and drive off anyone who has any interest in focusing articles on actually encyclopedic material and not drowining them in minutiae. Being calm has given us articles that have sat for 8 years with notices of being too in-universe and that have sat for 16 years with no sources at all. It is time to take action against articles not in compliance. It is time to end the writing of articles based in full and in all essentials on primary sources.John Pack Lambert (talk)


 * May I again remind you to adopt a calm and collegiate tone on talk pages. If you find you are becoming too angry to discuss matters rationally, it is generally best to take a small break and to think things over. I am not harassing anybody, nor do I add, tolerate, or preserve fancruft in any form - indeed, I have deleted a lot of it, both the Tolkien variety and many other kinds. I have also in the past weeks added dozens of reliable secondary sources to these articles. On the use of diagrams, trees, maps and other descriptive materials, however, there is a clear and good reason for using them: they help the reader navigate the text, and they help the reader understand something of Tolkien's extremely unusual (indeed, unique) philological, cartographic, and linguistic construction process that preceded and accompanied his novel-writing. The situation of Bilbo and Frodo not just in what Shippey calls a Shire "calqued" upon England, but within a social structure and family with an apparently long history, is a striking part of this process, and an essential element of the article. As for all-primary sourcing, the tree is discussed with a scholarly source. But since you're concerned, I'll add another source now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Concept and Creation.
This article is missing a concept and creation section. From Shippey, The Road to Middle-earth he links Bilbos conversation with Smaug to the poem Fáfnismál.

"Bilbo’s conversation with him is indeed a brilliant stroke. Like so much in the book it has a model in an Eddic poem, Fáfnismál, in which Sigurthr and Fáfnir talk while the dragon dies of the wound the hero has given him. Like Bilbo, Sigurthr refuses to tell the dragon his name but replies riddlingly (for fear of being cursed); like Smaug, Fáfnir sows dissension between partners by remarking on the greed that gold excites; the dissension actually breaks out when eating the dragon’s heart helps Sigurthr to understand bird-talk (another prominent Hobbit motif). Nevertheless Fáfnismál once again did not offer Tolkien enough. It drifted off into mere exchange of information, it contained as Tolkien said of Beowulf too much ‘draconitas’ and not enough ‘draco’, not enough of the ‘real worm, with a bestial life and thought of his own’ (‘Monsters’, pp. 258–9). Tolkien therefore set himself to repair this gap, and did so once more by introducing a strong dose of anachronistic modernity."

Trying to come up with a way of incorporating this in a new section but large edits are not my forte. Lava Lamps (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * See Smaug, where the matter is analysed. I don't think it impinges more than marginally on Bilbo, really. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Critic opinion as fact in the intro?
I don’t want to edit-war this, but I dislike this passage from the intro:

“ Bilbo's way of life in the Shire, defined by features like the availability of tobacco and a postal service, recalls that of the English middle class during the Victorian to Edwardian eras. This is not compatible with the much older world of Dwarves and Elves.”

It seems too much like opinion-stated-as-fact. To authoritatively state the hobbits’ historical analogues, and to say it’s “not compatible”, just doesn’t seem ~encyclopedic~ to me. Perhaps a “critics have noted...” rewrite? SacraConversazione (talk) 03:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Bag End, Baggins and "Begins" - etymology of a name
It was a common literary technique for Dickens, Stevenson etc. to choose character names that associated them with the plot of the story, sort of a playful memory aid that gives the story a fairy-tale quality. It's called an eponymy. Baggins of Bag End both "begins" and "ends" the story. But there are many explanations. This source has some well conceived ideas. This page cites many reliable sources with other explanations. The explanations are divided between intentional word play, or unintentional happy accidents. It's easy to backfill meanings into a name, the nature of language. -- Green  C  02:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the thoughts. Of your sources, Day is not a Tolkien scholar and is rarely usable: there are much better sources. The other source is a forum, which we cannot use. The general theme of Tolkien's philology and playfulness with words is well covered on the WikiProject already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:26, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The other source cites many reliable sources. Where is the etymology of Baggins "well covered already"? -- Green  C  15:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * At Bilbo Baggins, where else. There is no connection with "begin". Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry I got confused and missed that. In fact I'm not sure why that got posted, I was working on a reply and that version must have gone through without realize it. Anyway, obviously Stackexange itself is not reliable, but the citations to reliable sources within Stackexchange are usable. The literal link to Stackexchange would not be used on Wikipedia, but we can use the citations that are cited on Stackexchange, with verification. What counts as a "Tolkien scholar", because his work crosses into so many fields of experts who are not dedicated to Tolkien but still experts see Tolkien_research. As for David Day (Canadian author), maybe he is not reliable I don't know, but his biography suggests he is very notable and thus someone whose POV is not easily ignored. Our article currently contains the opinion of journalist/author Matthew Dennison, who typically doesn't write about Tolkien and not a scholar of any type, meanwhile Day who has written 15 [some best-selling] books on Tolkien, including The Hobbit Companion, the source in question here, was approved by the Tolkien estate, and has been called an "expert" on Tolkien by some independent sources. Again I am not arguing for inclusion of Day at this point, but I'm also not excluding them. --  Green  C  19:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Noted. To get back to the article, we already have quite a long section on "Name". It covers Baggins, Bag End, and the Frenchified equivalent, Sackville. These are all reliably sourced. Any more would be WP:UNDUE for this article, whose focus is not etymology. If you want to create an article on Baggins (etymology) and link it from here, that's your choice. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)