Talk:Bill Clinton/Archive 11

improvments
I have looked at the artical and i think thease should help:


 * Gallery: Images do not make an artical better, plus it is just showing clinton in various ways


 * Personal life: Make a personal life section.


 * Lead: The Lead dose not normally have refrences


 * Clean up: make a clean up or wait and i will make the clean up with a friend


 * Electoral history: Dose not have anything on it exept the artical name, and it cannot be placed on the artical because it dosent flow very good.


 * Peer reviw: Not saying it is nesasery but it could help knowing other editors opinions.

Well i think with this it could become a better artical. And if your planing to make Bill Clinton GA or FA, send me a messege and i well asist in the artical, I would seariously take some ideas from Obama and Reagen articals, as Ombama is a FA and a current President and Reagen is a FA and was a Former president. -- Pedro J. the rookie 02:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Personal life" sections are a bad idea, because they lose the chronological connection between different events in the subject's life. This is especially important with Clinton, whose personal and professional lives intersected very dramatically several times.  And the "Electoral history" summary section is common to many of our political articles – look at all the entries in Category:Electoral history of American politicians – and the subarticle is properly linked to from the main article.  And to be honest, the idea of you doing a "cleanup" is a bit strange, when just your post here has many bad spelling and grammar mistakes.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I do see your point but going around many presidential articals and many have personal life, and if not a personal life a marrige and children section. Can we take the section Electoral history See also that way it is in the artical. And i see your point about my spelling, but mainly it is understandable it good to me and i check my spelling when i right an artical. -- Pedro J. the rookie 13:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If someone wants to see at a glance who his wife and children are, the infobox at the top has entries for both, that's why those entries are there. But the references to Hillary in the article – marriage, education reform in Arkansas, LSC chair, her own political prospects, 60 Minutes interview about state of marriage during 1992 campaign, conflict of interest at Rose Law Firm, failed health care reform, later legislative success of her initiatives, Whitewater, sexual misconduct allegations and Monica, Hillary running for Senate, Hillary running for president – all of these references have to stay where they are in the article, because they wouldn't make any sense or have the right context if they were pulled out into a separate section.  In other words, Hillary's role in Bill's life has been very public and very much interwined with his political career; her role hasn't been just "personal".  Wasted Time R (talk) 14:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay your right in the personal life, he has not have much personal life, but tell me what you think about my other suggestions. -- Pedro J. the rookie 15:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:ALSO for what goes into a "See also" section. Links that are already present in the article do not go in.  Indeed, really good articles often have no "See also" section at all, because everything has already been worked into the article text.  Also, please read MOS:HEAD regarding section headers: only the first word is normally capitalized.  Thus, it is "See also", not "See Also".  Wasted Time R (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay but the Electoral history dose not work in like a section, maybe we can put it in his political carrer and it is a probably a good idea to take out the See also section. Would it be a good idea to make his Foreign policy. -- Pedro J. the rookie 23:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

A reference link that no longer works should be updated or removed: ^ "Obama asked, “Do you think Bill Clinton was our first black president?”". Fox News. Retrieved November 11, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.202.147 (talk) 08:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

First person view
"Sometime in my sixteenth year I decided I wanted to be in public life as an elected official. I loved music and thought I could be very good, but I knew I would never be John Coltrane or Stan Getz. I was interested in medicine and thought I could be a fine doctor, but I knew I would never be Michael DeBakey. But I knew I could be great in public service.[15]" Should be third-person. --71.255.76.249 (talk) 16:59, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? It's a first-person quote.--Louiedog (talk) 18:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no quotes where it is being used (see under "Early life and Career"). Therefore, it is not a first-person quote, and should have quotes around it to designate it as such if it is intended to be one. --72.68.196.235 (talk) 16:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I changed it to a Template:cquote so the fact that it is Clinton's own words will be more apparent. Tarc (talk) 16:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the colon was supposed to denote that it was a quote. Obviously, it wasn't the most conspicuous to do it.  Tarc's solution makes it clearer.--Louiedog (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Missing a mention of the northern ireland conflict
The section Bill_Clinton is missing all mention of Clinton's role in resolving the Northern Ireland conflict (Chelsea wrote her term paper on it). Surely it deserves mention, especially because "gratitude" for his role in the conflict is mentioned later on in this article.--Louiedog (talk) 18:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Mistake in Sexual Misconduct section
I don't have a login so I can't fix this myself: in the Sexual Misconduct Claims part of the article there is a mention that Clinton had a sexual relationship from 1959 to 1992. As Clinton was 13 in 1959 the date is clearly wrong, and in the source (reference number 120) there is a statement by the woman that the relationship commenced in the mid-1970s. Can someone fix this please? 220.253.222.113 (talk) 00:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Governor of Arkansas section
Why was the following item deleted, as it was well cited and explains the antipathy of Carter towards Clinton?

Clinton believed that Jimmy Carter cost him the gubernatorial election in 1980 and that “the peanut farmer was unfit for high office.“ tuco_bad 23:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The subject is certainly pertinent to the article, and you gave a detailed citation from a respected historian, but I think that your phrasing was faulty. You first wrote unfit for high office without quotes, then you put the words in quotes without making clear the source (I assume that the words were Clinton's).  I would suggest something similar to:
 * Clinton blamed his defeat on Ronald Reagan's landslide, and on Jimmy Carter, whom Clinton described as "unfit for high office."
 * Plazak (talk) 00:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks - I will rephrase Clinton's description of Carter. tuco_bad 02:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)


 * You are correct, Clinton blamed his defeat on Actor Ronald Reagan landslide victory of Carter. Northwestern guy (talk) 00:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually Clinton blamed his defeat on a variety of factors: the unpopular car tax, the Cuban issue thrust upon him by Carter's circumstances, and a long list of things that essentially amounted to the perception that he wasn't listening to the people that elected him.[My Life: pgs 280-287]--Louiedog (talk) 02:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd focus more on why Clinton actually did lose, not why he thought he lost. Politicians, like boxers and chess players, are notorious for concocting explanations for losses that involve something other than their own shortcomings.  Wasted Time R (talk) 02:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the whole sound bite about Carter isn't fit for office has little bearing on Clinton's loss and just seems like petty gossip. And nowhere in the book does Clinton blame his loss on Carter's loss. And as Wasted Time R points out, a politician commenting on loss is a rather unreliable narrator.--Louiedog (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read: Brinkley, Douglas The Unfinished Presidency: Jimmy Carter’s Journey Beyond the White House p.355. Clinton is quoted as blaming Carter for his loss. tuco_bad 23:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)

1992 New Hampshire finish
The 1st paragraph in the 1992 campaign section has 2 sentences which appear to contradict each other:


 * "He finished second to Tsongas in the New Hampshire primary...."


 * "He ended leading New Hampshire by a large percentage."

How could he finish 2nd and lead by a large percentage? LarryJeff (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. Don't know what was meant.--Louiedog (talk) 19:35, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Items needing attention by somebody with edit rights
1. Link in reference 13 (news article about Clinton appointment as U.N. Special Envoy to Haiti) does not go to the correct article. I looked up other articles on the topic, but I can't edit the page. For example, you could substitute this one:

Bill Clinton to be UN Haiti envoy BBC News, May 19, 2009.75.61.67.234 (talk) 09:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Done and thanks. You should consider creating an account here on WP and then next time you could do the edit :) Bjmullan (talk) 09:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You know, I did consider it, particularly when I was considering more significant edits to an article in my area of expertise. But when starting to read about account creation, I read the recommendation that you not use your real name in order to avoid possible harassment. I wanted to use my real name because I would like it to be visible when I make contributions involving more effort and professional expertise. But that warning gave me pause! My real name is actually quite unique and extremely easy to google, so if harassment is a real possibility, hostile people could find a lot more than just my wikipedia profile. But with the idea of an anonymous, fake-named profile, I found I lost interest in participating at that deeper level. There's effort involved just in learning the ropes around here. Being identifiable by name might make it worth it -- assuming I didn't have to worry about harassment. Your thoughts on the naming and harassment issue? 75.61.67.234 (talk) 19:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Never saw the warning and it wouldn't bother me anyway! If you have knowledge you should share it. Just pick a name it's no big deal, I saw one today "the cows want their milk back", and that made me laugh :) I'm sure you will enjoy it. Bjmullan (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

1993 World Trade Center attack
1993 world trade centre attacks should be repoted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.160.247 (talk) 04:01, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I will add that in99.8.105.153 (talk) 21:51, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

"William Jefferson" vs. "Bill"
It seems to me that this article should be titled "William Jefferson Clinton" instead of "Bill Clinton". Yes, President Clinton is usually referred to as "Bill Clinton" in day-to-day parlance and his books have the author name "Bill Clinton." However, he is also often introduced at speaking events as "President William Jefferson Clinton" and that's the name under which he was sworn into as the president. It just seems more proper for a reference work to file President Clinton under his legal/official name instead of his nickname. What do people think?
 * We refer to subjects by their common names. Best, faithless   (speak)  08:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See also: Jimmy Carter, Jon Stewart, Ray Charles, and Lady Gaga.--Louiedog (talk) 15:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * MOS:BIO "article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known". Like you said people commonly use "Bill".  According to MOS:BIO "subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph" - the intro should be "William Jefferson Clinton (born ..." not "William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton (born ..." Hutcher (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Confederate ancestry
Like Truman and Carter, Clinton had ancestors that fought to the Confederate States of America. Check it out here:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mscivilw/bios.html


 * BLYTHE, Thomas Jefferson - Great great grandfather of Pres. Bill Clinton (Clinton changed his name from Blythe). Born Aug. 12, 1829 in AL, the son of Andrew Blythe.  He married Ester Elvira Baum in Marshall Co., MS Jan. 1, 1849.  Thomas enlisted in Co. "F" 34th Miss. on Apr. 27, 1862 along with his two brothers, John Wesley and Newton Jasper Blythe.  All three survived the war.  Thomas drew a pension for his service.  He died Aug. 6, 1907 and is buried in Lowry Cemetery in Tippah County.  Click here for more information about him.

I move it be included in the article. It it noteworthy, as it the enduring association with Southern Democrats and the Confederacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martan32 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There are millions of people in TheUnited States and abroad, who have ancestors who fought for the confederacy. I don't see why its notable to mention it on this article. Yes he was the president, but it has nothing to do with his life at all.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments on deficit record and citations
The only comment that address Clinton's budget record in the entire article is:
 * Based on Congressional accounting rules, at the end of his presidency Clinton reported a surplus of $559 billion

I find it a little odd that his performance on the budget is mentioned nowhere else beyond the introduction, and the comment itself is uncited. I have also been unable to find a reputable source which verifies this (specifically the amount cited of $559 billion).

Also, I have found that in general in wikipedia, and specifically in Bill Clinton's articles, there is people are conflating the terms "public debt" (debt held by the public) and "national debt" (public debt + intragovernmental holdings), which is an important distinction because his budget surplus is with regards to public debt rather than the national debt.

For now I would like to see a tag added to the claim, please. Apocryphal Libertarian (talk) 20:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Apocryphal's comments. The National Debt (Public Dept + Intergovernmental Holdings) went up every year during the Clinton administration. Please see the following link for that data:OMB Historical TablesIf debt went up, there can be no real surplus.Rlantzy2112 (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Clinton's first Speech to Nation
Why is the fact of Clinton's first speech being removed from Clinton's presidential history? tuco_bad 00:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)
 * Thank you for bringing the subject to the talk page.
 * The first edit summary beyond mine says: rv: What you are offering is synthesis, which is taking a website that simply lists old campaign fliers and applying your own "what he said vs. what he did" analysis.
 * The personal juxtaposition of two facts, when that comparison is not made in a published secondary reliable source, is original research, which is against wikipedia core policy.--Louiedog (talk) 03:21, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mr. Clinton came to power burdened by far more, and more specific, promises than any President in recent memory. He found it necessary to start breaking them even before he took office. He reversed himself on Haitian refugees, on a middle-class tax cut, and on cutting the deficit by half in his first term. These were not pledges buried in the small print of position papers. These were major commitments, made repeatedly and with scathing accompanying criticism of the Bush Administration.
 * National Review, August 23, 1993 by Brit Hume
 * http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n16_v45/ai_13294511/?tag=content;col1
 * Is this source acceptable, if not I have others? tuco_bad 03:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)
 * That's an interesting article but the tax cut renege was one specific example out of three, being used to advance a thesis on why Clinton never got a "honeymoon period". You may as well have lifted any fact out of context such as "he stopped in San Francisco to call for a worldwide jobs summit in the United State".
 * So, you've sourced the fact that the tax cut was promised but not delivered, but not why it's standalone notable. The source considers it notable only insofar as it shaped his changing relationship with the media. Brit Hume never intended to state this fact as a particularly notable part of his 1st address, as you're attempting to use here. Clinton said a lot of things in his 1st address; the highlighted quote is the only piece consensus has agreed sticks out particularly, though you are free to offer arguments for consideration otherwise.--Louiedog (talk) 04:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You write: "Clinton said a lot of things in his 1st address"
 * However this speech was about the need to raise taxes - check it out!
 * BTW - From the Heritage Foundation:
 * By backtracking on tax-cut pledges even before the election, Barack Obama threatens to break Bill Clinton's speed record. It wasn't until a week before his first inauguration that Clinton openly reneged on his promise to cut taxes for the middle class."
 * http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed103108c.cfm tuco_bad 13:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC) cgersten —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)
 * Extreme right-wing (or left-wing, for the sake of argument) usually do not qualify as reliable sources. They can be quoted on simple facts about themselves, but their commentary on others is unsuitable for the Wikipedia. Tarc (talk) 14:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How about this item from the New York Times – March 21, 1992?
 * “Although the bill passed with majorities too slight to override a veto, the issue will persist into the fall Presidential election campaign. Gov. Bill Clinton of Arkansas, the Democratic front-runner, has supported tax cuts for the middle class paid for by higher rates at the top.”
 * http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/21/us/1992-campaign-economic-issues-tax-bill-passed-democrats-bush-vetos-it.html?pagewanted=1
 * There more items out there, you can do your own Google search.
 * Why not let the facts speak for themselves without censoring history? tuco_bad 15:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC) cgersten —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)
 * The facts do speaks for themselves; this is an article about Bush and Congress, with a passing mention of Clinton. Again I will refer you to synthesis; you cannot take one source that talks about what someone said, another source that comments on what he did, and offer your own "a-ha!" conclusions.  This was a major problem on several Obama-related articles as well recently; users looking for their own "gotcha" moments, or sourcing the gotchas to partisan sources. Tarc (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps user would be more amenable to a listing of exactly what it would take to change people's minds. What you need is a mainstream reliable source that states (a) "Clinton raised taxes against his campaign promise, and (b) presents it in such a way that this fact is a notable aspect of Clinton's early Presidency.--Louiedog (talk) 18:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * How about?


 * New York Times - February 17, 1993


 * "In selling his economic plan, President Clinton is gambling that voters never took seriously his campaign promise to lower the tax burden of the middle class and will respond favorably to an aggressive pitch based on equal measures of hope, fear and class revenge.


 * After months of polling and research, Mr. Clinton's top political advisers say they are convinced that middle-class voters will support higher taxes."


 * http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/18/us/clinton-s-economic-plan-campaign-gambling-that-tax-cut-promise-was-not-taken.html?scp=1&sq=clinton%20raise%20taxes%20february%201993&st=cse tuco_bad 21:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC) cgersten —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)

CNN breaking news
He's just been taken to a New York hospital. Does anyone know what it is? Because so far the net says nothing, only the TV news. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * ABC News reported he has been taken to Columbia Hospital for heart problems possibly relating somehow to a stint. He was on a gurney when he was admitted. 24.120.127.162 (talk) 21:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * So far, we only know he was rushed to a hospital after suffering chest pains. No other thing including whether it is about heart problems nor his current condition are known. Watching CNN right now. ~ | twsx | talkcont | ~ 21:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * His councellor just announced that "He [Bill Clinton] is in good spirit and will continue [on his work for the foundation]". Seems like he's okay. ~ | twsx | talkcont | ~ 22:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears he had an angioplasty. - Gilgamesh (talk) 01:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Post-presidency of Bill Clinton
This article is 128KB, which is more than a little on the long side. So I've copied the Post-Presidency section into Post-presidency of Bill Clinton. If you guys think it's OK, I'll summary-style that section. If not, propose deletion of the article --Purplebackpack89 (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the article is currently 55 kB (8857 words) readable prose size which is within the WP:SIZE guidelines of 60 kb and 10,000 words. That said, I'm sure a subarticle on Clinton's post-presidential career can be further expanded beyond what's in the main article now.  However, I think a more standard title would be Post-presidential career of Bill Clinton.  Wasted Time R (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The correct title of that article depends on whether it is only about his career since ceasing to be President, or whether it is about his life since then. That article is not clear on that matter; most of it is about his career. However, there is a section about his heart disease, yet it does not mention his latest operation. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Assassination attempt in 1994?
NNDB claims there was an assassination attempt on him in 1994. Do they have the year wrong, or was there really an attempt to kill him during that year? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Intervention against violent stepfather
The Early life and career section of this article says half-brother Roger Clinton, Jr. intervened to stop Roger Clinton, Sr.'s violence. Jr.'s and Sr.'s articles say it was Bill who physically intervened. Which is correct? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Bill intervened to protect his little brother and mom.--Louiedog (talk) 19:52, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This Bill Clinton Page Is Highly Misleading In Terms Of Sexual Allegations
The page states that Paula Jones was able to sucessfully prevail when she filed for an appeal, and she did not. She was still in the process of presenting her appeal when the settlement was reached; hence she had not prevailed, meaning she predominated and won, in her lawsuit, because a court settlement has no victor and is a compromise. The settlement also mainly went to her attorneys and not her The page also points out that Susan Webber Wright was one of Clinton's students at the university of Arkansas after it points out that she dismissed the case. Nobody has investigated Susan Webber Wright in a public fashion to suggest that she dismissed the case because she was a student of Clinton's and favored him. In fact, she is also a Republican. The article is misleading, unneutral and needs to be rightfully changed.204.169.161.1 (talk) 21:03, —Preceding undated comment added 21:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC). I agreeDr real (talk) 22:12, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Having an account on Wikipedia: cool. Using it to agree with your own previous comment: not quite so cool. --jpgordon:==( o ) 22:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC) This is a shared IP address in Minnesota's Hennepin County. That doesn't mean we are the same user.Dr real (talk) 22:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Oxford Years
It might be mentioned that Strobe Talbott was the President's roommate during his time at Oxford, a relationship that became political when the President appointed Talbott to the State Department as Deputy Secretary of State. This is discussed in My Life as well as the suicide of his other roommate over the draft. Clinton says in his book that the suicide impacted his feelings about the war and his choices surrounding the draft. jkv (talk) 12:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Typo
It says: In 2007, he released, Giving: How Each of Us Can Change the World which became a bestseller and gandered positive reviews.[130]

Should this be changed to 'garnered' positive reviews, or am I just crazy?

In the "First Term" section, just above the "Travelgate" subsection is the following sentance: "That same year Hillary Clinton shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act through Congress and two years later Rodham Clinton succeeded in helping pass the Foster Care Independence Act. Bill Clinton supported both bills as well, and signed both of them into law." Should that be Hillary Clinton instead of Rodham Clinton? --152.131.9.132 (talk) 18:49, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe so. Also, if you are going to fix that first sentence you listed, it has a grammar mistake. "he released, Giving:.." shouldn't have a comma before Giving. Jpatros 14:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Health
Should the health section mention his lung surgery in March 2005? (92.11.254.235 (talk) 12:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC))

terrible picture
The article needs a recent picture. The only one in the article is an awful picture (2008 campaign). Those who hate the man should not insist on an ugly picture. Willie Sutton Bank President (talk) 21:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Images

 * How do you feel about these?

--William Saturn (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I feel that you should not pick up where banned users have left off, lest you be lumped into the same category. I also feel that this article is quite image-laden as it is, and does not need to be cluttered further. Tarc (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This post was in response to a comment left by an individual who had a valid point; the image from the 2008 campaign seems to be the only recent photo in this article. Hiding a post because one of the two participants was a banned user without the consent of the unbanned user, is terrible talk page etiquette. To then add that one removed the post because of their personal opinion on the merits of the proposal (without discussion), further demonstrates a talk page malpractice. Tarc, the action of hatting a discussion is basically the same as removal, the only difference is that it takes up more space. If there is one post (from a banned user without response), the post should be completely removed. However, if there is a response, it should be left alone. --William S. Saturn (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Shortening
Someone placed a tag on this article saying that it's too long. That seemed like an appropriate tag, so I took a few fluffy sentences out of the lead. Also, I have never seen a two-column list in the middle of a Wikipedia biography. There's an identical list at Presidency_of_Bill_Clinton. So, I removed the list here, and inserted a sentence pointing to that other article. If legislation and/or programs are especially notable, they can be described in the rest of this article (many of them already are).

This article still needs some trimming (it's still at 122 KB), and I think this can be done in the section on post-presidency; it's huge, especially compared to the sections on each of his two terms. And many of the subsections in the post-presidency section are already too short to justify subheadings. Probably the best way to organize the post-presidency section would be chronologically.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've got it down to 119 KB from 125 KB today. This is like the subject's weight-loss efforts.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Down to 116 KB now. There was a lot of excess verbiage in the section on honors and accolades.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Accusations in the lede
The lede currently says: "Later he was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice, but was subsequently acquitted by the U.S. Senate.[8][9] During his presidency he was accused of adultery, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape."

My only part in this was to insert "perjury" (because that was one of the two charges during the impeachmant). The second quoted sentence seems a bit excessive to me. For example, I don't think the sexual assault and rape accusations were very widely publicized (compared, for example, to the adultery and sexual harassment accusations), and that lack of publicity may be related to the inability to confirm that these events happened.

But if we just delete the last sentence, then the first sentence would be kind of weird, and lacking any context. The impeachment charges stemmed from a lawsuit for sexual harassment by Paula Jones. That lawsuit was ultimately settled out of court for upwards of $800,000 and the perjury and/or obstruction of justice led to suspension of Clinton's law license in Araknsas, and his resignation from the US Supreme Court nar (which was about to disbar him). So, there should be a way to concisely give some context to the first quoted sentence above, but without going as far as the second quoted sentence above.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The last sentence in full accurately summarizes the sourced material in the body of the article about sexual misconduct allegations. They were not widely covered because there was no related legal actions associated with the accusations and because the press had little interest in seeing such serious charges associated with Clinton.--Drrll (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Economic expansion in the lead
It is very misleading to indicate that Bill Clinton presided over the longest economic expansion without indicating that that same expansion began under the presidency of George H.W. Bush.--Drrll (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No, it didn't. Bush Sr.'s recession ended in Dec. 1992. It's hard to create an economic expansion over the course of a single month. DKqwerty (talk) 15:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The source you gave doesn't say that the recession ended in Dec. 1992, it says the NBER gave "a statement that didn't come until December, 1992" about the recession ending. Sorry, but the 1990-1991 recession ended March 1991, 23 months before Bill Clinton assumed office.  The recession of 2001 started 5 weeks after George W. Bush assumed office, after a negative GDP growth rate in Q1 2001.  Are you going to seriously argue that that recession was caused by Bush?--Drrll (talk) 18:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * relevant.--Louiedog (talk) 17:32, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to argue. I'm going to let the reference speak for itself. DKqwerty (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The reference doesn't assign responsibility for the 2001 recession. It just discusses the Bush administration's attempt to change the start date of that recession.  BTW, that same NBER that declared the end of the 1990/91 recession during December 1992, pegs its end at March 1991, not December 1992.--Drrll (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If you don't like the way it's worded, then change the wording.--Drrll (talk) 13:48, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Joker, you have removed any context from the sentence, resulting in misleading readers to believe that the economic expansion was created by Clinton, despite two years of expansion before Clinton took office. Drrll (talk) 15:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Assassination attempt
This section of the article should be removed. The only two citations are an amazon.com page for the book making these cliams and an article citing the book making these claims. Sounds like someone is trying to sell a book. 85.81.126.123 (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

"Sex" in the lede
I've made a noticeboard inquiry here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:27, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The noticeboard discussion is archived here. The consensus was against changing "scandal" to "sex scandal" in the lede of this article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:51, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Clinton as first black president
Should there be something on here identifying clinton as the 1st black president? heres a reference. http://dir.salon.com/books/int/2002/02/20/clinton/index.html   Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You may have mistaken a metaphor for a literal statement of fact. The author was making a rhetorical point, and was not saying that Clinton is literally an African-American.  The first black president, according to the best available sources, was Barack Obama. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, it's there, in the "Public image" section. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Clinton drew strong support from the African American community and made improving race relations a major theme of his presidency.[113] In 1998, Nobel Prize-winning author Toni Morrison in The New Yorker called Clinton "the first Black president", saying, "Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald's-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas", and comparing Clinton's sex life, scrutinized despite his career accomplishments, to the stereotyping and double standards that blacks typically endure.[114]

In 2008, Morrison's sentiments were raised anew as Barack Obama, who would later become the country's first African-American President, ran for the presidency. After endorsing Obama, Morrison distanced herself from her 1998 remark about Clinton, saying that it was misunderstood. She noted that she has "no idea what his real instincts are, in terms of race" and said she was only describing the way he was being treated during the impeachment trial as an equivalent to a poor black person living in the ghetto.[115] Obama himself, when asked in a Democratic debate about Morrison's declaration of Clinton as "black", replied that Clinton had an enormous "affinity" with the black community, but joked he would need to see Clinton's dancing ability before judging him to be black.[116]--Louiedog (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

"health care" vs. "healthcare"
I noted one editor has been changing all instances of "health care" to "healthcare". From what I can tell, two separate words ("health care") seems to be the preferred usage (see here & here). And changing it in the names of internal links breaks the links, so I have changed it back to "health care". — JPMcGrath (talk) 02:30, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Confusion in White House FBI Files Controversy
In the "White House FBI Files Controversy" section, the article says: Craig Livingstone, head of the White House Office of Personnel Security, improperly requested, and received from the FBI, background report files [...]. It then goes on to state that the Ray report stated "there was no substantial and credible evidence that any senior White House official was involved" in seeking the files.  If Ray stated there is no evidence, and we present no sourced evidence, then why do we state that Livingstone improperly sought the files? I don't know enough about this case to confidently edit the section, so perhaps someone could help rectify this contradiction. Blackworm (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * (Previous comment deleted, I had confused the edits of a different section.) It seems this is still unresolved, and it's still confusing.  Was Livingstone a "senior" White House official?  It's unclear if the quote from the Ray report refers to him.  Did he actually request the documents (the cited article does not say)?  In any case I'm not sure any of it is relevant enough to Bill Clinton to warrant its inclusion here.  He wasn't apparently suspected of wrongdoing, his wife was.  I suggest the section be removed.  Blackworm (talk) 07:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Date/age when he changed his name from Blythe to Clinton
This article says he was born in 1946 and changed his name at age 14, which would be 1960 or 1961.

The articles about Roger Clinton, Sr., (his stepfather) and Virginia Clinton Kelley (his mother) both say that he changed his name in 1962, meaning either that he was 15 or 16 or that he was born in 1944 or 1945.

I remember seeing his mother saying (on television) that he changed his name at 18, which contradicts this article, but I saw that only once and in 1992, so I could be wrong.71.109.159.242 (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The Remarks About Paula Jones Are Exaggerated And Need To Be Altered
Paula Jones only filed for an appeal and did not prevail. In fact, the Appeals Court was still investigating the case by the time the settlement had been reached. Also, while Susan Webber Wright was a student of Clinton's, it is not worth mentioning. Wright also issued rulings that weren't 100% favorable to Clinton when she presided over the Whitewater investigation, like when she sentenced Susan McDougal to the maximum sentence of eighteen months in prison for contempt of court when she refused to answer three questions about whether or not Clinton lied in his testimony; as mentioned in her Wikipedia article.98.240.254.121 (talk) 03:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Sex in the lede
There was a discussion here at the BLP Noticeboard about changing "scandal" to "sex scandal" in the lede. The consensus was to treat the Clarence Thomas lede and this one the same, and therefore include the word "sex" in neither lede. However, because the Clarence Thomas lede now does include "sex," it seems like this lede may as well too. Please keep in mind WP:Spade.

If anyone disagrees, please give more than a two-word explanation. Thanks.108.18.185.163 (talk) 03:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't make editorial decisions in a "if they're gonna do that there, then we're gonna do this here" spiteful manner. At the BLP/N link provided I see a small discussion about the matter, certainly no consensus on the matter as you are claiming.  Consensus cannot override core policies of NPOV and UNDUE anyways, and would not allow for this bizarre biographical article linkage that you seem to want. Tarc (talk) 13:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine, we will continue to advertise the sexual nature of the Thomas allegations in the lede of that article, and continue to do the opposite in this lede. The notion that it is "spiteful" to mention sex in this lede is incredibly ridiculous, but this is Wikipedia after all.  Have a  @#!*%  fine day, Tarc.108.18.182.123 (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have an editing issue with the Thomas article, then that article's talk page is the place to be. I might even be in agreement that "sex scandal" in that article's lead (I detest "lede" for the record) is a bit overboard, but then again the circus that was Thomas' confirmation hearing does feature prominently in his history. It's an interesting discussion to have, but again, shouldn't have a bearing on ol Bubba here. Tarc (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course it should have no bearing on Clinton, given that he's a liberal Democrat whereas Thomas is not. If we treated them fairly and equally, then that would somehow suggest that Wikipedia is a 501c3 nonprofit organization entitled to a tax exemptIon due to Wikipedia's nonpartisan nature, rather than a forum for liberal POV-pushing.  Oh wait....166.137.9.85 (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Tarc (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Productive discussion ended when you said (at 13:44, 31 July 2010) that it would be "spiteful" to treat the two leads fairly and equally, saying in your edit summary that such a request is "bizarre".108.18.182.123 (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean the part where I told you that your editing rationale had no basis in policy or common sense? Ok.  Are we done here? Tarc (talk) 17:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's right, the part where you ignored WP:SPADE and WP:NOTCENSORED, and where you failed to acknowdge that WP:BLP does not mean "nothing negative or offensive to puritanical individuals". The subject of the article had one of the most famous sex scandals in human history, and yet you want to keep the word "sex" out of the lede?  Geez.108.18.182.123 (talk) 02:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 71.109.159.30, 26 August 2010
please change

becoming the first Democrat since Franklin Roosevelt to win presidential reelection

to

becoming the first Democratic incumbent since Lyndon Johnson to be elected to a second term and the first Democrat since Franklin Roosevelt to be elected President more than once

because

the term "presidential reelection" is not correct, because

1. The word "reelection" is sometimes used to refer to any election of a current President to another term, including Presidents such as Theodore Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, and Lyndon Johnson who were not elected to their original term. By this definition, Clinton would be the first Democrat since Lyndon Johnson, not the first since Franklin Roosevelt.

2. When it refers to a President of the U.S., the term is "Presidential", with a capital P, not presidential

71.109.159.30 (talk) 16:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Past participle of the verb "be"
Surely Clinton "is" something rather than "was". Yes, his primary fame is routed in his former president-ship, but I thought "was" is reserved for deceased biographies...? Any suggestions how this can be changed? Keith1234 (talk) 16:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.--Bill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.245.203 (talk) 18:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

First term as Governor
I don't know how to edit this but I'm pretty sure this is wrong:

In office January 9, 1979 – January 19, 1981

2 years as governor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.61.23.116 (talk • contribs) 03:55, 11 September 2010


 * He was governor for only 2 years on his first term.  GB  fan  04:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Ninja Loans
Bill's work to modify the Community Reinvestment Act which led to the creation of the Ninja loans (and hence the GFC) really needs to be documented here. 124.169.16.180 (talk) 04:20, 20 September 2010 (UTC)J


 * Go ahead and be bold. Jess talk&#124;edits 04:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

III or IV?
The article twice says Pres. Clinton was born William Jefferson Blythe III. It cites a page at whitehouse.gov, which indeed says "III". But I've spent the last eighteen years (until now) with the understanding that he was born the fourth, not the third. In fact, the childhood photo of him at Wikipedia calls him the fourth. Could the White House webpage be wrong? Or could everyone else have been wrong for almost two decades? What's the story? President Lethe (talk) 07:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Well in past talk page discussions about this here and here, the debate used to be that his autobio said "III" and the whitehouse.gov profile said "IV". Somewhere along the line the .gov bio was adjusted to say "III", so I'd conclude from that that that is the correct one now. Tarc (talk) 11:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

It still doesn't look entirely decisive for me. Then I also consider that, even if his original birth certificate leans one way, the way his family thought of his name in those early years may lean the other. Anyway, this helps satisfy my curiosity; thanks for pointing me to those discussions, Tarc. — President Lethe (talk) 22:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm no less confused than anyone else here. His father's article also seems to be undecided. How can one officially verify whether it is III or IV? Thesomeone987 (talk) 21:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)Thesomeone987

A talk
This topic-the EEG Expressor and Instant EEG can be performed in the medical center,but I am not in a medical center,so I can not follow up the topic is performed on schedule or not? By the way,do you still care the politice? I make a plan for the membership of the U.N. to the Republic Of China,not just confirmed in the computer website,or just talk with Obama?What's the psychologic condition of the members of the U.N.? How can I make them to support my Plan? The [annunal fee] for the organization though so many countries do not pay the annual fee, [A war?], the Korea is not tuff enough to create a war,So my plane is perfect! A troop as a branch of the goverment outside the U.N.and decision should be maken in the U.N.! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.33.23.93 (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from p Lyon-Lee, 04 November 2010
Could a reference be added:

Bill Clinton has been acknowledged by Mr Jason Gale as being the inspiration for the London Lifestyle Awards —Preceding unsigned comment added by PLyon-Lee (talk • contribs) 16:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Tense of Living Presidents
This is a suggestion that applies to all living presidents, but I thought to post it hear as I was noticing it at this moment. Shouldn't the line "was the # President of the United States" be "is the # President of the United States". I would think this to be the case for living presidents, as they are still recognized as Mr. President, even after their term has been served. I may be wrong, but I thought this was customary, and the present tense "is" would more accurately reflect this custom. Chris.P.Dunning (talk) 22:17, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

On balancing the budget and reported surplus..
Article says.. "The Congressional Budget Office reported a budget surplus in 2000, the last full year of Clinton's presidency."

It would be fair to add after that, that even though it may have been reported as being so, that it is incorrect as Dept. of the Treasury website shows that there never was a surplus, just a lower deficit. http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

(I looked that website up, and it takes a while to load, but it is an official government website accessible/linked to from http://www.ustreas.gov/ after you select "Bureaus" then "Bureau of public debt" followed by "US public debt to the penny.")

Suggest adding this information on, change to.. "The Congressional Budget Office inaccurately reported a budget surplus in 2000, the last full year of Clinton's presidency when in fact there was still (and always has been) a deficit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.177.102 (talk • contribs)


 * You're confusing national debt (which is what that site relates too) with deficit. DC   T • C   16:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from but the way it is reported is misleading as the countries national debt has not been "not a debt" at any point within the last few decades. Intragovernmental holdings (IE debt) is not accounted for in the statement that is usually made in regards to said surplus, as is the case in the original statement. Intragovernmenal debt is in this instance, made up of social security surplus used to pay for national debt (via the purchase of US government securities) which social security is legally required to do. So in essence the money has been borrowed from one pocket to be placed in another, covering the debt up and making it appear as a surplus when in fact it is not and in reality increments the national debt once said debts interests are accounted for. Good source of information with its own sources inside: http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.177.102 (talk) 17:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not a reliable source DC   T • C   19:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I merely posted it since it has sources of its own that are relevant, such as the link to the treasury departments logs of public debt for the past few years. The source may not be reliable, but the information contained in it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.177.102 (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Not trying to use common knowledge as a source, since that site I linked last is basically common knowledge (you cannot pay down debt by taking on more debt from another source.) The US Department of Treasury is http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np 71.100.177.102 (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I apologize, I just realized I said "A good source..etc.." above. More accurately I should have said "A reference I just found and could use to explain what I mean." Still relevant so please disregard that it says "a good source." Don't mean that to be linked in Wikipedia article page itself either. 71.100.177.102 (talk) 20:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

bill clinton is very important 2 your country  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.14.191 (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Getting all presidents to GA level
I have begun work on the Clinton article. I am working off of a new peer review that i requested. The work is nearly done, and I believe that with your help, it can be finished even quicker. I have marked off what I have done on the peer review. The review can be found on the article.--Iankap99 (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good job youve made a lot of progress. Unfortunately Im not going to be able to dedicate much to article developement for the next few weeks. Im trying to get the US project going again and that seems to be taking a lot of my time. Once I get it up and running again im hoping to get back into it. I did graze through the article though and here are a few things that I noticed were improvements could be made.
 * Inline citations in the lede. Usually inline refs should be avoided in the lede
 * Needs some prose work. Some choppy sentences
 * The references needs some pruning
 * References should be a consistent format
 * Too many references, I would try and keep it under 100 if possible
 * Some of theh references are more notes. I would create a seperate notes section with just these notes. Ths isn't a requirement but it makes it easier to read through when you have a lot of refs. Examples are 68 and 145
 * Some references need to be expanded. For example 50, 52 and 119
 * There are some dead links Example 130, 149, 201 and 205
 * There are references that are duplicated in the Further reading or external links section. If you are using it as a ref dont use it as a further reading or external link. Example ref#1
 * Blogs are typically not valid for use as references. It could be an External link though Example 202
 * Good luck and good job. --Kumioko (talk) 03:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "The references needs some pruning"?

"Too many references, I would try and keep it under 100 if possible" This seems absurd, the Obama article has 300.

Thanks for the read through and suggested improvements, would you mind if I cross them off here when I finish them?--Iankap99 (talk) 21:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting good to know about that article. Im kinda surpirsed its an FA I see a lot of problems on that one as well. No probelm feel free to cross them off and please let me know if you need anything else. --Kumioko (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well feel free to start an FAR on the Obama article, I'm sure the problems will be addressed and fixed within a day.

You missed this last time around. Thanks.
 * What do you mean by "The references needs some pruning"?--Iankap99 (talk) 01:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh basically like the stuff I mentioned above. --Kumioko (talk) 01:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

"Sour economy near election time"
I noticed this comment regarding the original 1992 campaign "By election time, the economy was souring and Bush saw his approval rating plummet to just slightly over 40%." While this statement regarding Bush's approval rating being low is true, the US economy was in the state of recovery in November 1992. In the 9 months prior to election day the economy had been growing above 4%, about a million jobs had been added, and unemployment had been declining (albeit slowly). Of course, the economic downturn of 1990-91 was largely responsible for Bush's decline in popularity, however, the way the article is worded it makes you think the economy had just entered recession around election day when such was not the case.--FrankieG123 (talk) 18:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

please add this information to the bombing of yugoslavia section, which seems to be biased
Fareed Zakaria of Foreign Affairs wrote for New York Times that Milosevic who rules "an impoverished country that has not attacked its neighbors — is no Adolf Hitler. He is not even Saddam Hussein." (clinton said for Milosevic that he is Hitler.)

''what the croatians call an occupied territory is a land which the serbs have held for more than 3 centuries. most of the same is true for the serb land in bosnia. US has punished one side in this war and unfairly. '' - foreign affairs sep/oct 1994

188.2.169.209 (talk) 00:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

ps. Michael Parenti has some good citations on the topic from establised media. There is also an informative video here.188.2.169.209 (talk) 00:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the Proposed Merger of Bill Clinton's Page with Virginia Kelley's
Although Clinton and his mother are related, they are still seperate people. Both pages contain enough individual information about their subject to remain seperate. Such a merger would be pointless and confusing to those looking up information on either person. KosmischeSynth (talk) 16:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have to see something that is missing. WP:Notability (people) directs that just being the mother (related) of an ex-president does not make her notable and individual information is not actually a prerequisite for an article. If her son was her only notability then the article should be merged. A redirect would handle any confusion on a search. Otr500 (talk) 04:14, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

removing adoptee category
I am removing Bill Clinton from the category "American adoptees". The article refers to William Jefferson Blythe, Jr. as Clinton's father and Roger Clinton as his stepfather. Our article on Roger Clinton also refers to Bill Clinton as Roger's stepson. Bill Clinton's White House biography also refers to William Jefferson Blythe, Jr. as his father and makes no reference to an adoption by Roger Clinton. --Allen (talk) 17:44, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Role in Iranian arms trafficking to Bosnia in 1994
In Agency and the Hill: The CIA's Relationship with Congress (2008), L. Britt Snider writes:
 * In 1996, the Los Angeles Times published an article alleging that in 1994 the Clinton administration had given a "green light" to the government of Croatia to allow Iranian arms destined for Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia to transit its country. At the same time, a UN arms embargo was in effect forbidding the shipments of arms to the former Yugoslavia, an embargo the United States had pledged to uphold. The press account also speculated the US government was engaged in a covert action, not reported to the congressional oversight committees, to facilitate the flow of arms from Iran to the Muslims in Bosnia.

A search for "Britt Snider" in Wikipedia turns up a few interesting pages where he's cited, mostly involving the CIA, over which he was inspector general at one point in his career. Is there enough information/credibility here to edit the article?—Biosketch (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

F U

Bill Clinton are vegan? EGroup (talk) 08:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Missing information in section about bin Laden
In the last paragraph (which is a single sentence) of the section entitled "Attempted capture of Osama bin Laden," reference is made to "the warning" for which no referent exists. The reference is only made clear by following the citation at the end of the sentence. I recommend beginning that paragraph with:

"Also in 1996, the State Department warned the Clinton Administration that Afghanistan would provide bin Laden a safe haven from which to pursue his plan to expand radical Islam after he was expelled from Sudan."

This sentence will put the existence sentence into context. Ted Sweetser (talk) 03:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Teflon Kid
The article mentioned Clinton's nickname, 'Slick Willie', but I remember him being called 'The Teflon Kid' after the Lewinsky affair. Does anyone know of a good reference for this? I did a quick web search but didn't come up with much. 94.72.235.210 (talk) 19:54, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

"involving sex with a White House intern"
Without an appropriate explanation, User:Orangemarlin has twice removed two words from the lede of the article. This changed "'Later he was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with a scandal involving sex with a White House intern, but was subsequently acquitted by the U.S. Senate...'" to read "'Later he was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with a scandal involving a White House intern, but was subsequently acquitted by the U.S. Senate...'"

This was a revert of my text, which I feel clarifies the subject of the scandal in a helpful and succinct manner.

His first edit summary was "Reverted to revision 434304094 by Jim Michael: NPOV" -- though I had asked for a discussion on the talk page regarding that, none came; instead, Orangemarlin's second edit summary was "Longstanding NPOV version. Per WP:BRD convince a consensus on talk for change. Stop edit warring.."

Point one: WP:NPOV basically states that all information should be appropriately weighed and reported from an objective point of view, and I don't see why a two-word reference to the facts of the scandal should violate that criterion.

Point two: WP:CENSOR leads me to believe that a discussion of the sexual nature of the Lewinsky scandal is in no way inappropriate, and WP:CONSENSUS states that "Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding. Moreover, such changes are often reasonable." (Nor, for that matter, do I actually see any past consensus for excluding the wording in question.)

In essence, I would like to see reasons why "involving sex with an intern" is inappropriate wording, and to be informed as to exactly how it (allegedly) violates the spirit / letter of WP:NPOV. If this objection is not adequately clarified, I will revert back. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This is simply to much of a POV detail without the proper context given in the sub section. Would we add this little detail we would need to add even more to explain the situation then, which would be overwhelming for the lede. Therefore I agree with Orangemarlin.TMCk (talk) 16:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, in what way is this POV at all - that is, if there was a sexual relationship involved in the scandal (that was the trigger of the perjury committed), exactly what is the POV aspect, as opposed to cold, hard fact? And what would we have to add? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 17:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BRD, I'm reverting this POV edits. Also Zloyvolsheb is at 3RR.  I'm warning you on your page.  One more edit, and I'll make sure you're blocked.  Stop it.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions
 * You're at 3RR yourself and not following WP:BRD, as you haven't even bothered to join this very discussion, which I have started per policy guidelines. To join a discussion, you need to furnish an argument, and not an edit summary insult or assertion somewhere in the edit summary box. Or an inappropriate threat to have the other party blocked so that people can discuss the content you are objecting to. Do you plan on doing that? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Please take your POV elsewhere. And I am not at 3RR, you are quite incapable of counting.  You have provided nothing here that would change a long-standing statement in the article.  Your contributions are regularly reverted I see.  Love the shit tried to force into the Obama article.  Laughing my ass off.  You are quite amusing.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 18:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to laugh while carrying on talk page discussions in a civil manner that manages to avoid vociferant incivility attempting to be the owner of an article. I also object ot the threat of violence you've placed in my e-mail box. It's pretty immature. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * If Orangemarlin's incivility is indeed toped off with a threat of violence per e-mail, this should go straight to an approbiate board.TMCk (talk) 19:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Infinite reach
Regarding this edit, there are two problems:


 * 1) It's an inappropriate section heading because it includes unrelated subject matter below it like Clinton's Balkan policy.
 * 2) It's an inappropriate section heading because it singles out on thing in the history of Clinton's presidency and foreign policy over all other concerns. His work in the Balkans and the Middle East are far more notable and memorable than a mistaken bombing in Afghanistan and Sudan.

--Louiedog (talk) 21:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. Please feel free to remove inappropriate section heading's and not revert future Good Faith Edits.

-- QuAz GaA  22:35, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Great. This is why it needs to come to the talk page once it's contested.


 * You made a good faith edit. I considered it and good-faith reverted it with an explanation.  This put it in the category of "contested".  If you make a change which is good-faith reverted, do not simply reinstate your edit - leave the status quo up. The reasons for this are two fold: in the event that a consensus is not reached at the end, a change can't be made anyway; if you've made an edit that was just reverted, the chances are very high that reinstating the edit will simply result in another reversion and frustration on both sides.  Cheers.--Louiedog (talk) 04:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

First President born after World War 2
A discussion on the Barack Obama page about whether noting Obama is the first President born in the second half of the 20th century is relevant (it's not), I thought the parallel would be Bill Clinton, the first President born after WW2. I think, like the note that Jimmy Carter was the first President born in a hospital, the WW2 note ought to appear here in the lede. Thoughts? Oneinatrillion (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's now in the body, but not the lede. – Quadell (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Money made after leaving office
This edit removed the notable fact that he got $100,000 per speech. The Clintons made around $100,000,000 from books and speeches and other sources. He earned $31,000,000 between 2001-2005 alone:
 * --Javaweb (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

It's true, but it's not notable in a GA biography. Clinton has had many, many jobs earning many different amounts of money, but not all of them deserve mention. As the GA reviewer said, it was obviously placed where it was intended to show a link between Bill Clinton raising money and Hillary Clinton's political aspirations, but I couldn't find any reliable sources that claim a link. As such, we don't mention it here any more than Clinton's salary as president. – Quadell (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. I've examined the Featured Articles on Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon, and neither of these mention how much money they earned at speaking engagements. I don't see why this article should be different. – Quadell (talk) 21:31, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't have any such intentions. Indeed this reference does not imply that either: "[2006], ... Clinton earned $9 million to $10 million on the lecture circuit....352 speeches -- but only about 20 percent were for personal income ...[80%] given for no fee or for donations to the William J. Clinton Foundation, the nonprofit group he founded to pursue causes such as the fight against AIDS." Thanks for pointing out the other articles and the concerns during the GA review. --Javaweb (talk) 00:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

Factual error in this article
I would like to report a factual error in this article. The error is that it says that WJ Clinton's presidential term began at the end of the cold war. Clinton served as POTUS after the cold war had already ended. This can be confirmed in the wiki article (as well as many, many other reliable sources as well). I request that this article remove and correct this erroneous entry in order to be accurate and correct (an important and very valid Wikipedia motivation). Clinton's term began in 1993, this is two years after the end of the cold war. The George H.W. Bush BLP should also be edited for the factual entry that GHWB served as POTUS (seeing that this is important and was included in WJC BLP) at the time that the cold war ended. The fact that Clinton had absolutely NOTHING to do with the cold war may or may not be added for clarity on this very important point in American history. Thank you and have a great day! 98.64.75.179 (talk) 16:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You're correct that the Cold War had ended just before he took office. When it says "He took office at the end of the Cold War...", it just means that it was right around this time period. Do you think it would be better to say "He took office just after the Cold War ended..."? – Quadell (talk) 01:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I just mean that is a factual error. Why even say anything about the cold war at all? I suppose it could say he was the first president elected after the cold war was over or had concluded (1991). It made me look at GHWB BLP and it says absolutely nothing about the cold war at all. So, I mean to say that Clinton did enough without associating him with something that his presidency had nothing to do with. GHWB BLP wouldn't state anything about the Cuban missile crisis,watergate, or the Falkland war, so why is the cold reference even in this BLP? Also, the Clinton Foundation has many causes with which it contributes support and aid to, perhaps, it should be expanded in that regard as wellrather than just stating aids support (good cause, but not the only important one). Thanks.... Why is this article even locked down from being edited by others? 65.8.150.136 (talk) 17:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

National Debt figures in relation to Federal Budget surplus
I believe that it bears mentioning that even though a Federal Budget surplus was recorded by the CBO, the National Debt rose each year President Clinton held office. While this increase is not unique to Clinton, it is a fact (uncontested by OMB historical figures, CBO, and Treasury) that it happened during his presidency. Not only does it demonstrate that the accounting methods for reporting budget surpluses and deficits are inaccurate, it shows that even this President, widely regarded as a fiscal conservative, was unable to avoid increasing the National Debt of the United States.

As far as the sources I cited being primary or secondary, I consider the links to the Treasury secondary. They report the numbers that are recorded in a balance statement or accounting workbook (primary) on a website (secondary).

Also, if still considered primary, I would cite the following statement from the policy on primary sources located on the Wikipedia No Original Research project page:
 * A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. Wikipedia No Original Research Project Page

In this case, I think the Treasury website is very straightforward. It shows the total end of fiscal year debt for each year, grouped into decades. Two links were required to show years ending in 1990s and then for year 2000. Rlantzy2112 (talk) 02:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's what we call original research. Editors don't get their provide their own analysis of what sources have to say, so no go. Tarc (talk) 12:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree. What analysis is being provided? Answer: none.  If an editor were to say "During President Clinton's tenure, he increased the debt from X to Y" that would be analysis.  Simply stating a straightforward fact as such
 * The gross federal debt increased over the years of the claimed surplus from $5.4 trillion to $5.6 trillion.
 * does not mean any analysis nor original research was done. It happened, plain and simple.  The policy I cited allows for use of a primary source in this case.  Perhaps a rewording to state:
 * However, according to the US Department of the Treasury, the gross federal debt increased over the years of the surplus.
 * would remedy the issue? Rlantzy2112 (talk) 16:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This issue would be best remedied by you finding something better to do within the Wikipedia rather than dredge up old, dusty right-wing talking points regarding the Clinton era and budget surplus numbers. Tarc (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So then you don't disagree with my reasoning, but you'd rather make this an ad hominem attack? Rlantzy2112 (talk) 12:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * According to PolitiFact, while the gross federal debt did increase, the public debt decreased. --Jatkins (talk - contribs) 01:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is only the case because when the Social Security Trust Funds run a surplus the revenues from the purchase of Treasury securities are used to balance the budget. All administrations have done it, but it bears mentioning.  Surpluses don't mean much in the shadow of increasing debt. Rlantzy2112 (talk) 20:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Pardon of a death-row inmate?
The article states "Clinton was the first President to pardon a death-row inmate since the federal death penalty was reintroduced in 1988.[30]". I think it should say that "President Clinton issued a clemency order to a death-row inmate, commuting his sentence from the death penalty to life in prison." This would not imply that a murderer was set free. This site here lists the executive order in question: http://www.justice.gov/pardon/clinton_comm.htm with the innmate named as David Ronald Chandler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.241.112.118 (talk) 18:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Error under "Presidential Campaign"
Under the presidential campaign, it states: The election gave Democrats full control of the United States Congress.[3] It was the first time this had occurred since Democrats controlled the 95th United States Congress during the Jimmy Carter presidency in the late 1970s.[42]

This is completely untrue, as even an examination of the linked websites will verify. For example, the 96th and 100th Congresses were Democrat controlled, as were the 101st and 102nd. Democrats maintained control for the 103rd Congress, when Clinton got elected. In fact, the more notable event was during Clinton's re-election, where Congress turned Republican for the first time since the 83rd Congress, in the 1950s. Someone please correct the article. 24.126.30.61 (talk) 01:07, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good catch, the old wording was awkward. The claim being made was that this was the first time in 12 years the same party controlled both the White House and Congress.  Wording now clarified to that effect. Tarc (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The New York Times Book Review Further Reading resource

 * http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/books/review/back-to-work-why-we-need-smart-government-for-a-strong-economy-by-bill-clinton-book-review.html ‘Back To Work: Why We Need Smart Government for a Strong Economy’ by BILL CLINTON, Reviewed by JEFF MADRICK "Bill Clinton presents his views on the country’s challenges and explains his plan for creating jobs."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.87.29.188 (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

DeMolay
Clinton was member of the fraternal young mens organization, served as Master Councilor (Presiding Officer) of his Chapter and was selected for the DeMolay Hall of Famein 1988 when he was still Governor of Arkansas. Alienlenny (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2011 (UTC)alienlenny

Edit request on 20 January 2012
The persondata structure at the bottom of the markup lists the wrong birth date for Bill Clinton. Here is the current persondata:

Here is what it should be:

128.30.44.116 (talk) 21:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

"New Democrat"
It says many times than Clinton "has been described as a New Democrat". The impression is given the media coined the phrase, but in reality it was his 1992 campaign that thought it up. Prehaps the wording should be changed.

Military forces in Iraq
The following sentence appears in the article:

'To weaken Saddam Hussein's grip of power, Clinton signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq, though it explicitly stated it did not speak to the use of American military forces.'

This sentence is inaccurate. The text of H.R. 4655 does in fact speak to the use of American military forces, under Sec. 4(a)(2), which reads:

'(2) MILITARY ASSISTANCE- (A) The President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations. '(B) The aggregate value (as defined in section 644(m) of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961) of assistance provided under this paragraph may not exceed $97,000,000.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.6.139.251 (talk) 22:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It might just be a typo, i.e. "did not speak to the use of American military force" rather than "forces". --Jatkins (talk - contribs) 16:26, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Rewritten to clarify. No direct intervention by US military forces. Assistance (articles, training), not troops on the ground. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Bill Creating Jobs
Bill Clinton added 6 million jobs thats 250,000 a month. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.150.201.160 (talk) 21:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Dispel nonsense on Vince Foster and other things
The Article should include an "Urban legend" or "Common misconception" Section. This new Section should mention, among other things, that Clinton did not murder Vince Foster, despite popular belief. (Vince Foster actually committed suicide if anyone's curious.) The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Impeachment: Nothing new or Serious Event??
The intro to this entry merely states that, "Later, he was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice in a scandal involving a White House intern, but was acquitted by the U.S. Senate and served his complete term of office." Yet, don't you think the Impeachment of a President is a more serious event than this (especially since it has only been successfully pursued twice in the history of the United States?)

Impeachment is a serious event for any President: It has only been attempted three times, and was aborted only once (Nixon resigned rather than go through the ordeal.) Thus, the fact that this opening entry omits the fact that Bill Clinton is only the second out of 44 Presidents successfully impeached can be seen as an overt attempt by partisan supporters to both whitewash and minimize the importance of this event in American history.

You should at least mention the fact that Bill Clinton's Impeachment was only the second time in American History that such an event has taken place. IMHO Thanks122.26.58.230 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 17:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC).

About the Impeachment proceedings
It was my understanding that Bill Clinton was impeached, just not removed from office. Not sure about the acquital by the US Senate. The sentance that was handed down was shunning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ixion123 (talk • contribs) 05:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

"He has also expressed support for gay marriage" -- source?
The article source for the statement "He has also expressed support for gay marriage" is not specifically about Bill Clinton and does not give any quotes or information that would indicate the statement is true.

184.6.104.141 (talk) 06:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done It looks as if the statement has already been removed from the article. I could not find it anywhere. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Religion
The category and info box say he is Baptist. Are there any sources for this? The reason I ask is because he attended Catholic school and his wife's article states that she is United Methodist. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 May 2012 to change the 2nd term
In the second term passage, it states that Clinton was the 2nd president impeached, after Andrew Johnson. This must be corrected since Richard Nixon was impeached in the 70s due to the Watergate scandal. This is common knowledge, and MUST be fixed.

Boisebound78 (talk) 15:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not done. Read the Nixon article, it clearly indicates he resigned before he could be impeached.   Hot Stop   15:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in the budget deficit/surplus chart
If that chart is to be believed, we had 4 years of Ford budgets, followed by 3 years of Carter, 9 years of Reagan, 3 years of Bush Sr., and 9 years of Clinton. That's not right.William Jockusch (talk) 05:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the graph is showing positive values, i.e. the red bars, as deficits and negative values, the blue bars, as surpluses, so by that interpretation it shows all deficits apart from Clinton last four fiscal years, 1998-2001 inclusive. --Jatkins (talk - contribs) 08:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, but why do we have 9 years of Clinton and Reagan, instead of 8? Why 3 years of Carter and Bush Sr., instead of 4?William Jockusch (talk) 12:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless somebody fixes the chart, I think it should be removed as it is inaccurate. Comments?William Jockusch (talk) 17:41, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. --Pass3456 (talk) 20:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks!William Jockusch (talk) 15:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the hint. --Pass3456 (talk) 19:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Public Image
I think the public image section on this page is almost exactly the same as the lower section on the page Public Image of Bill Clinton. I think we should make this section drastically smaller or add what the other page says to this article for that page is not that long. Jibajabba (talk) 12:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Importance of impeachment.
Seeing Tarc's violent reaction, I realize this probably won't be easy, but if Wikipedia truly wants to be an unbiased encyclopedia his impeachment needs to be in the opening paragraph. If the Nixon article opened with mention of his young age becoming VP but no mention of his resignation, it would be wrong.

The opening paragraph for Bill Clinton reports his young age (third youngest), him being the first baby-boomer president, but no mention of him being the second president impeached. No seriously unbiased editor can say that his impeachment should not be in the opening paragraph. Rodchen (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


 * It doesn't belong in the first part of the lead, it is not a defining moment of an 8-year presidency. 3rd paragraph is enough. Tarc (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any evidence of any "violent" reaction by Tarc. I don't agree with Tarc that it wasn't a defining moment, but as long as its in the lead, its fine. First paragraph is usually for identifying statistics of a president. Subsequent information can go into other paragraphs.-- JOJ Hutton  01:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

You can see the history to see the violent reaction. And Clinton being 46 and the third youngest man to become president was a defining moment??? Him being the first baby boomer president was a defining moment? Of course it should be included in the opening paragraph. If Nixon's opening paragraph discussed China, war in Vietnam and Russian relations but nothing of watergate or his resignation, wouldn't that seem strange to you???? Rodchen (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with where it is now, but if it is moved to the lead it would need a substantial rewrite for context.  Hot Stop   14:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Apples and oranges regarding Watergate and Nixon, I think you need to chekc your bias at the door before furthering this conversation. For Clinton, the 'baby boomer' aspect is quite significant, yes, as it stood in stark contrast to most of the presidents of the 20th century who campaigned on their military service. Tarc (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

One hundred years from now people will remember Clinton as being the second president who was impeached, just like most Andrew Johnson is basically remembered for only 2 things: succeeding Lincoln and his impeachment. I will try to rewrite the opening lead. I had wanted to avoid ruffling too many feathers, but if a rewrite is needed I will give it a try. Rodchen (talk) 04:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * It is fine just the way it is at present, with the impeachment bit further down but still in the lead. That way it isn't propped up with more importance than it actually is, not is it burying an important, though not defining, aspect of Clinton's presidency.   Spare us your WP:CRYSTALBALL-gazing about presumed importance and find something better to do. Tarc (talk) 12:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Impeachment is a fairly major event in anyones life, especially of a president. Given that there have only been 2 of 43 is pretty substantial. Looking at Andrew Johnsons opening paragraph and Richard Nixons, its clear that they also mention the impeachment/resignation as well. If was added to the first paragraph, it wouldn't be without precedent.-- JOJ Hutton  12:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)