Talk:Bill Collins (golfer)

Data needed to make this article more complete:
 * (1) Missing one of his 4 PGA Tour wins. (happened between 1959 and 1962)
 * (2) Missing his year of birth full date of birth, birthplace and full name
 * (3) Missing where he lives if he is still alive

Consensus to overrule our guidelines
Could someone point me to where consensus was achieved to overrule our manual of style with regard to flags in infoboxen and to use flags to represent birthplaces. Mo ainm ~Talk  16:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed at Template talk:Infobox golfer - your point hasn't been supported by other editors. You can't just pick a random golfer and start a campaign. Reverting... Tewapack (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Again I will ask show me were there is consensus to overrule the MOS? Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Consensus - how about the fact that it is used on over 2000 pages that way! Tewapack (talk) 20:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Guidelines are just that - guidelines. Implementation of them is not obligatory. If there's a dispute you must obtain separate consensus to proceed. At least, that's how I see it, and here as elsewhere there is no consensus to remove the flag. WizOfOz (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah the golf tag team at work. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think not. I've no interest in golf; I've never ever held a golf club in my hand. WizOfOz (talk) 21:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why do you advocate the use of flags which is in breach of MOSFLAG in this case as it is used to show the nationality of a golfer and also shouldn't be used in an infobox. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You do have a point. There is a guideline giving advice on the use of flags in info boxes and elsewhere and it is restrictive in some respects, maybe quite rightly. Personally I don't have a problem at all with the use of flags and I think the MOS is overly restrictive, but that's just me. But, the point here is that the editors who have an interest in this and other articles have decided to go against the MOS, and they are entitled to do so. We should not impose undue "external" pressure on them. WizOfOz (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So do you agree then that the MOS should be ignored to add a pretty flag which adds nothing to the article as the nationality is in text beside it. Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and extending your argument we could remove all flags from Wikipedia and just have text instead. WizOfOz (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I definitely don't see a consensus here to depart from the MoS guidance. Why, WizOfOz, did you you revert what looks like a consensual edit? --John (talk) 18:14, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it's not consensual, and it's continuing an edit war. The MOS is not set in stone and if the regular editors at an article decide to ignore it, or deviate slightly from it, then so be it. It's worth noting that the editor who would like to deviate from it is the only "regular" editor here (I think, anyway). WizOfOz (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What difference does that make? Who is arguing to keep the flag? Why? --John (talk) 19:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think User:Tewapack, a regular here, is arguing to keep it. I would have left this argument now, but purely by coincidence I was reading about the WWI veteran who died today, and I stumbled on this - Talk:List of last surviving World War I veterans by country, the section on flags. For me this clarifies what I suspect the argument is probably about. I think it is quite pathetic and I commend this comment on the matter: "Nobody used made up flags. Nobody used flags that were "wrong". Outside of the NI issue, people just don't get all hung-up on flags. It is regrettable in the extreme that we seem to be going down a path where because some Irish Nationalists can't agree on flags, the rest of the world isn't allowed to use them. I shan't trouble you further on this, as I don't have the time or energy to deal with POV pushing here. Mayalld (talk) 15:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)" WizOfOz (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And what has that got to do with this page? The flag is being used to represent the birthplace of the golfer and it is also in an infobox which both are against our MOS, is not the idea that we attempt to make every article the best they can be? Which is featured article status, which can't be achieved unless the style guides are adhered too. Mo ainm  ~Talk  09:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)