Talk:Bill Johnston (cricketer)

Classification
I have classified the article as a start. While it is more developed than a stub, it still needs improved sourcing and a picture. Capitalistroadster 02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've upped the WP Cricket importance rating to "mid". He's surely more than a "low". JH (talk page) 09:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me, a low is presumably someone who has played first-class cricket but no tests or ODIs. Capitalistroadster 10:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Quotations
There seem to be several uncited quotations in the article. Are sources available for these? matt91486 16:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Which ones? I believe I have sourced them all, at the end of the paragraph at least. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

GA review comments

 * "..- May 24, 2007)[1][2].." - why the reference here? is it for when he died? i don't think one is necessary, two is an overkill. If you believe that you need to provide reference for the date of his death, the main para on his personal life would be the place. (as i finished the review, i found that you have linked an article to his death and hence striking-off the comment) Not here and hence please remove.
 * ''I moved it. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Johnston headed the wicket-taking lists in both Tests and first-class matches," - i didn't understand the sentence. was he the person with the most number of wickets in tests/first-class matches when he retired? If so, please re-word to make that explicit.
 * ''He was the highest wicket taker for that tour in first class matches generally and Tests specifically. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification here and in the article page. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "was the last Australian to take more than 100 wickets on an Ashes tour." - this statement is very inaccurate representation of facts. As per the wikipedia article on The Ashes - "The Ashes is a Test cricket series, played between England and Australia - it is international cricket's most celebrated rivalry and dates back to 1882.". So it is normal to assume that 'The Ashes' tour means the international matches and nowhere can i conclude that 'The Ashes tour' includes first-class matches. Hence the same needs to be explicitly mentioned. In the main section, please provide the no. of matches played in the tour
 * ''Ok. Changed to tour of England. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * " of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year for 1949, who stated that... " - shouldn't it be which stated that (Wisden is an organization, not a person). Also this wisden quote is used twice. i think it will be best to limit a quote for just once. two is one time too many.
 * ''Fixed the first part. I guess that being a WCOTY is big honour when you are in the Invincibles team, so I think we should say what he was awarded it for in the lead. Of course, everything in the lead is repeated in the main body, so you will end up with two mentions of everything in the lead. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree with your stance, but i will go with it nevertheless. BTW, my objection was to the quote only. never meant to imply that the WCoY shouldn't be mentioned twice. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no reference provided for the statement "Regarded by Bradman as Australia's greatest ever left arm bowler," in either the lead section or the article
 * ''Fixed.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "By the end of the season, he had played 24 Tests and was a key factor in Australia winning nineteen and losing only two of these." - need reference
 * ''I sort of avoided it by rephrasing. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Add a sentence of his post-cricket life in the lead and conclude by stating that he passed away in May 2007
 * ''Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "In retirement, he held a variety of jobs in sales and marketing, and ran some small businesses and died at the age of 85 in May 2007." - the sentence is very uncharitable to him (at best). I think you need to be a little more specific and some data is available - i think his son is a cricketer/cricket administrator. if you find no data, remove the sentence and i shall be OK with it. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Tweak offered. I actually generalised it as his work life isn't as notable as his cricket life. In Australia "small business" means something with less than 100 workers I think, so it doesn't necesarily mean someone with two employees. But I changed it to just a business.
 * I tweaked it a bit as well. BTW, i wasn't refering to "small" as denigrative to BJ but "some" was the term i wanted to avoid. saw that it wasn't in the article and so all'z well. Between, i corrected the phrase "He had two sons, one of whom became a cricket administrator and he died at the age of 85 in May 2007." to " He had two sons, one of whom became a cricket administrator. Johnston died at the age of 85 in May 2007." so that the "he" part is very explicit.--Kalyan 07:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment: Any info on his parents? I won't stop the GA for this, but it will be great if we have the info.
 * ''Well, in the first para, we know that he and his brother lived and worked on his father's dairy farm. I presume his mother would also have worked on the farm. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Beeac’s local team, which competed in the ..." who/what is Beeac?
 * ''I wikilinked it. It is his local town. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "It was at a training camp that he first met Keith Miller.[1] His brother died after crashing in Ireland.[3][4]" - shouldn't the sentences be interchanged.
 * ''I don't think it should, because they were at training camp, and later his brother was sent to Europe and died on service while Johnston stayed in Australia working on the radar. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am OK with the reworded sentence. Much better than earlier. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Although he dismissed Cyril Washbrook in the first over for Victoria against Wally Hammond's touring England team of 1946-47, he was skeptical about his pace bowling, until with further encouragement from Australian captain Don Bradman after a match against Bradman's South Australians." - sentence needs copyedit
 * ''Tweaked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "He was rewarded with selection for four of the five Tests against India, heading the averages with 16 wickets at 11.37. He debuted on a sticky wicket in the First Test in Brisbane,[6] taking 2/17 as ..." - can you move the info on the ave/wickets to the next sentence as it doesn't seem to flow well that the results of the series is declared before talking about the match.
 * ''done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "This ensured him selection for the 1948 tour" - changed him to his (i think it is a spelling mistake. right?)
 * ''I think they both are okay, but I changed it anyway. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Johnston roomed with Richmond and Victorian" - Richmond is his school?college?town? add wikilink, if one exists
 * ''Wikilinked to Richmond Cricket Club. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Traditionally Australia had fielded their intended first choice in the tour opener against Worcestershire." - two issues. needs reference (about fielding first choice) and the construct of the sentence implies that all tour openers were against Worcestershire. copyedit required
 * ''It is in the Haigh ref, after the next sentence. Hopefully the sentence is readable. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "unable to bowl to injury." - change to "unable to bowl due to injury."
 * ''done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "He scored his Test best of 29' - was it his best ever or then best? clarify
 * ''Done. career best. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * at the end of the para, can you provide his figures for the five test match series - wickets, average. Oh i see that you have this sentence in the next para - "He finished with 27 wickets, equal to Lindwall." can you move it towards the end of the first para
 * ''Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Johnston's next assignment was the 1949-50 tour to South Africa, where he fell asleep at the wheel in Durban at the start of the tour following a team function and crashed his car, suffering head injuries." - needs copyedit
 * ''Better I hope. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "with Johnston describing ... " can you add 'later' before the word 'describing'
 * ''Better, I hope. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * His best innings figures were 6/44 " - career best, then best, series best?
 * ''Clarified career best. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "It was a successful tour for Johnston, who took 23 wickets at 17.04.[8]" - seems redundant as atleast a part of the sentence is repeated as the last sentence of the para. Please consolidate
 * ''I hope it's better now. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "An ineffective 1/68 saw the Fourth Test drawn" - implies that the match was a draw only because of his bowling. needs mod
 * ''Rephrased. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "The 1950-51 series against England was Johnston’s first home series since the Invincibles tour." - what is the reason for the sentence. i can't understand why it is there.
 * ''It's just to remind readers that in 1949-50, Australia did not have a home international series since they were in RSA and there was no international season at all in 1948-49, so it was three years since Australia played at home. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * " Johnston was at the peak of his career." - violates Show, don't tell policy. best to substantiate it with PwC ratings or some objective evidence if you want to still use it.
 * ''I added a clarification that I meant statistical peak in terms of bowling average, wickets per match, etc. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "As a result, the mayor of Richmond granted the pair freedom of the city." - can you re-phrase the sentence as it is not easy to understand
 * Wikilinked Freedom of the city. It is a civic honour, like the Padma Shri, in this case, the mayor of his local city gave him this award. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * got it now. i knew about keys to the city but learnt about "freedom of city" only now. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "During the 1951-52 season he took a then career best of 7/114 against New South Wales. He surpassed this in the following season with 8/52 against Queensland, which remained his best first-class innings analysis.[7]" - don't combine test and first-class data and if you want to do it, mention it at the beginning of the sentence.
 * ''But NSW and Queensland are both domestic teams. Both of these refer to first class matches generally and not Tests. I don't understand. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't remember why i made the remark. It could be that this para came between 2 international tours. can you just rephrase - "he took a then first-class career" and/or "the following domestic season". Just a suggestion. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Tweak offered. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * " they came at a cost of 35.1." 35.1 what?
 * ''RPW added. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "This coincided with a 2-2 result. Australia’s first series non-victory since the 1932-33 Bodyline series. Again Johnston’s best individual performances came in Australia’s less productive matches: He took seven wickets in the last two Tests, which Australia drew and lost.[9]" - copyedit required. also, the logic of the sentences needs to be explicit as well
 * ''I hope it's better now. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "He missed the first six first-class matches, before recovering to play in the First Test at Trent Bridge. " - i am assuming it to be an Ashes tour. can you be explicit and mention the season as well. why did he miss them?
 * ''Need to check the book again. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Done. the knee injury. duh! Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "first four Tests before missing the last through injury as " - what injury?
 * ''No clue actually :(, but there is no way he was dropped if he was averaging 22 with the ball. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Just removed the reason for why he was not in the team, none of the reports I looked up gave a reason (injury/rest etc). Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "In the Second Test at Sydney, he had another notable innings when he joined Neil Harvey with 77 runs for victory. They put together a stubborn 39 run tenth wicket partnership which gave Australia hope of an unlikely victory before Johnston was caught behind for 11.[12]" - how is this innings notable?
 * ''It was notable because in that Test Frank Tyson and Brian Statham bowled in a very hostile manner on a green pitch in a low scoring match. So I think the commentators point out that defiant stand as quite notable...perhaps they think that if it was on a normal pitch it would have been worth perhaps 60-70-80 runs. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Am not too convinced but will go with your logic on this. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Well I did not notice this to be unusual on the face of the numbers, but I think two of the obituaries think it was a famous innings. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "On the first day his knee failed as he attempted" - knee failed? can you be more specific?
 * ''The sources didn't say what muscle in his knee or bone in his knee dislocated or what, but it does tell us that when he changed to driection to attempt to take the catch, his knee couldn't support the force placed on it anymore I guess. but I couldn't find more specific info on which part of the anatomy of his knee got what injury. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Standing 188 cm, Johnston utilised a flowing ten-pace approach to the wicket, with an idiosyncratic dip of his head before delivery." - smacks of copyright vio from some source or POV to me
 * ''Well, it is sourced. The sources say that he had a funny head movement before he laucnhed the ball. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Johnston was economical, conceding only 2.07 runs per over and the strength of his hands were attributed to his milking of the family’s cattle herd" - the two parts of the sentence doesn't seem related. Also, run-rate in that era of 2.07 wouldn't be un-usual?
 * ''I'm not sure...If it was 2.07 in an eight ball over, then he would have conceded 1.55 in a six ball over, which would have been even more impressive. If it was 2.07 in six balls, that would still be good. I'm sure there were others who were more economical, but I think 2.07 would be in the upper echelon. Split the unconnected fragmnets. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * " given to him years by his schoolteacher" - years ago? years earlier?
 * ''Fixed.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Johnston had a reputation as a poor batsman, but averaged in the 11-12 range in Tests and first-class matches, despite not being able to make a half century. " - don't see any reason why the word "but" was used. if you are a poor batsman, you will average 11-12. Also the second part of the sentence contradicts the first and third
 * ''I'm not sure that it does...We are talking about tail enders, so when you talk of being poor at batting, you are thinking of people like Danish Kaneria or Courtney Walsh who average about 5. For tailenders, 11-12 is not good but it is not much worse than average.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree. you could avoid the use of "but" in the sentence. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Well ok, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "that lose him his .." change lose to lost
 * ''Inserted a would in there. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Johnston had a varied career after cricket holding a variety of jobs including sporting goods sales representative, shoe company marketing manager, publican and apartment building manager. Prior to his retirement, he ran a post office on the Gold Coast of Queensland.[2]" - The second sentence should precede the first. also the current first sentence needs copyedit
 * ''Done I think. The second should be in the later part, since it means his retirement as a worker, not as a cricketer. But the post office was one of his last jobs. I have made this clearer. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "He married Judy and they had two sons David and Peter" - any chance we will get dates for marraige and births
 * ''From the A-Z of the Australian cricket, it normally lists biographies and autobiographies for each cricketer if they exist. I could not find any for Johnston, and the only books in the library with minibiographies and separate detailed chapters for one player are those for players who have captained Australia. So I am pessimistic about this. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "When he married Judy at St. Paul’s Anglican Cathedral in Melbourne, Catholic guests, including captain Lindsay Hassett (Australia’s first Catholic captain) were not permitted entry.[5]" - so i assume that St. Paul is a protestant church and Bill was one too (I am not a christian and hence this query)
 * ''I linked Anglican to the Church of England. This is the English Protestant church which broke away from the Vatican in the 1500-1700s. The source did not say that Johnston was Anglican (English Protestant) but I assume if he was Catholic he would have been kept outside like Hassett. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "David Johnston was the Chief Executive of the Tasmanian Cricket Association at the time of Johnston's death.[2] David Johnston played 10 games in the Sheffield Shield for South Australia.[4]" - date order inverted. move the second sentence prior to the first.
 * ''Done.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Though it seems a lot of comments, most of them are minor and once they are addressed, we can take the article to GA. Any further than GA would require Images, lots of images, though. Kalyan 18:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ''I have another two lying around, although they are not the clearest things available.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * couple of points remain and once resolved, we are good to go to GA and hopefully even FA on this. --Kalyan 09:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. The article goes to GA. I think the article has a shot at FA as well. --Kalyan 07:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Tintin's comments

 * The lead doesn't look right. It is supposed to be a summary of his career, but half of it is about a single series. Plus there are lines like "By the end of the season, he had played 24 Tests and was a key factor in Australia winning nineteen and losing only two of these" which would do better in the main text.


 * As Ring was a leg spin bowler, they were in direct competition for a place in the XI.

Seems to imply that the reason for the competition with Ring was because he was leg spin bowler.


 * Bradman changed his mind on the morning of the First Test in Trent Bridge when rain was forecast. 

Does any of the sources link the presence of Johnston in the side with the rule that allowed new ball after 55 overs ? There is a line which says As the tour progressed Johnston improved his control as he restrained England’s batsmen between the new ball bursts of Lindwall and Miller.. This will make sense only in the context of the 55 over rule.


 * In both the Test and county matches during the 1948 tour, Johnston carried the heaviest workload, bowling nearly 200 overs more than any other member of the squad.

Grammar. He did not bowl 200 more in Test matches


 * Johnston finished the season at the top of the first-class bowling averages

He didn't. Lindwall finished higher.


 *  the fastest player to do so.

Maybe a hint that the fastest is used in the context of time, not the number of Tests


 *  Johnston was at the peak of his career.

An odd line where it appears


 * In the Fourth Test in Melbourne ...

Should be moved inside the paragraph


 * Australia’s first series non-victory since the 1932-33 Bodyline series. 

1938


 * He missed the first six first-class matches, before recovering to play in the First Test at Trent Bridge. 

No context


 * Johnston was economical, conceding only 2.07 runs per over

What are we talking about ? Test matches ? (his actual rpo should be something else as half of the matches that he played had eight ball overs)


 * Bradman rated him as "Australia’s greatest left-hand bowler", ahead of the likes of Alan Davidson. 

ABC does not date this statement, so be careful with the comparison. For all we know, Bradman may have said it in 1948


 * but averaged in the 11-12 range in Tests and first-class matches, despite not being able to make a half century.

Why the despite ?


 * English Test paceman Alec Bedser bowled wide of the stumps and advised Johnston not to do anything that lose him his wicket

The source quotes Alec Bedser but from the scorecard, it doesn't look like Johnston ever faced Bedser. Fingleton writes in Ashes crown the year that 'Langley wouldn't take the risk of Johnston even having to take a ball and so threw his wicket away'.

Feel free to ignore those which are my personal opinions. Tintin 00:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Lindsay Hassett - forst Catholic to captain Australia
I don't think this is correct. Warwick Armstrong was a practising Catholic. If no-one objects, I will remove this comment shortly. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Date of death
There is some uncertainty surrounding the date of Johnston's death. Australian sources such as AAP and SMH have tended towards the 25th. Other sources, especially UK, have mentioned the 24th. The obituary sources indicated he died "overnight" which probably contributed to the confusion. The Australian AAP and SMH sources (25th) seem most reliable, so have unified the death date on the 25th. Dl2000 (talk) 01:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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1953 Batting Average
....was 102, albeit 17 innings and 16 not out. Surely worth a mention? WillE (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2019 (UTC)