Talk:Billie Jean/Archive 1

Could be a featured article
This is an excellent article and if it had references I would nominate it to be a Featured Article. If anyone can add references, please do.--Alabamaboy 01:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. At the moment. There is certainly ample and impressive material here but the author dips into fan magazine writing and this is not the Wiki standard.

Not the first black on MTV
I read somewhere recently - I think it was Blender magazine - that Billie Jean was not literally the first video by a black artist on MTV. Anyone still have that issue? I think it was in their 'Blender answers your questions' section. Also, MTV's own biography of MJ simply says he was the first black artist to find stardom on MTV. If he was the first to be played, I think they would mention that. BabuBhatt 21:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Edit: I made the change, since just above it says MTV had been playing predominantly white artists' videos. BabuBhatt 21:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

According to this article, Rick James said in 1983 "There are no Blacks on MTV's program list except for Tina Turner, and she stopped being Black about 10 years ago." The article then states "Tina Turner, Jon Butcher Axis, The Bus Boys and Donna Summer were some of the other Black artists whose videos were shown because their music fit the format." I grew up during that timeframe and I can tell you that Billie Jean was NOT the first black artist on MTV and that article proves it.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_14_110/ai_n16807343

Vaginsh (talk) 08:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Eddy Grant, Musical Youth, Donna Summer and Joan Armatrading all were played on MTV before 'Billie Jean'...considerably before. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Billie Jean visionary box set
Billie Jean is currently at number 8 http://mjni.com/news/details.aspx?ArticleNo=1730

Billie Jean is a current sinlge
Billie Jean is currently a chart elegible single. http://www.mjvisionary.com/mjvisionary.html

"Beat It" did not replace it as number one song
Took out line regarding "Beat It" as replacing the song at number one. There was actually a one week interruption in the MJ string between "BJ" and "BI" when Come On Eileen by Dexy's Midnight Runners was the number one song in the US.

Theresa Gonsalves - The Real Billie Jean
I found this site about the person that seems to be the person behind the song:

http://www.obsessionsthebook.com/TheRealBillieJean.html

Fair use rationale for Image:Billie Jean.jpg
Image:Billie Jean.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 01:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you know that guys?
"Billie Jean" uses an interesting musical mode: the mediaeval (resp. modern) Dorian mode. The key is F# minor, and you can constantly hear a D# in the keyboard hooks throughout the song. -andy 62.134.215.112 19:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Best Non-MJ performance of Billie Jean
Here is the best non-MJ performance of BJ. http://www.dailymotion.com/bookmarks/fafa17300/video/xcahu_michael-jackson-idol_extreme —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaneite (talk • contribs) 17:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Chart peaking information
I have to ask: where do you get all the chart peaking-information from? I mean how do You know where Billie Jean went number one ect? Any page?

Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prince-fan (talk • contribs) 17:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

So called release date of BJ 2008
As there is neither a commercial nor a promotional single for BJ 2008 (yet), the charts are calculated of downloads of this track. It is only available on Thriller 25 so this release date is the release date for BJ 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LiterallySimon (talk • contribs) 13:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Cover by David Cook on American Idol (season 7)
American Idol (season 7) contestant  David Cook covered this song. Are covers of songs on "contest shows" (such as American Idol) considered article-worthy material? If so, would it get its own section, or just go in the "Covers and Remixes" section? --Nirvelli (talk) 04:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

not really, we already have enough examples. Realist2 (talk) 13:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Other covers ???

 * 808funk and Levanon
 * The Bolshoi
 * Berk & The Virtual Band
 * soundbluntz The Sound Bluntz
 * Harmonia Pocket —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michel BUZE (talk • contribs) 09:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

BBC Radio 2
Billie Jean was recently voted best Dance song of all time by BBC Radio 2 listeners. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/07_july/16/dance.shtml. I think this is relevant information that should be included in the article but I couldn't work out where to fit it in without creating a whole new section. Perhaps someone else can see a way of fitting it in? Iiidonkeyiii (talk) 14:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Lyric sheet
On the original lyric sheet from the Thriller album, the printed lyrics contain a lot of repeated phrases at the end of the song that don't match what Michael Jackson actually sings at that point. It looks something like this:


 * Billie Jean is
 * Billie Jean is
 * Billie Jean is
 * Billie Jean is


 * Not my lover
 * Not my lover
 * Not my lover
 * Not my lover


 * Billie Jean is not my lover (she is just a girl)
 * Billie Jean is not my lover (she is just a girl)
 * Billie Jean is not my lover (she is just a girl)
 * Billie Jean is not my lover (she is just a girl)

And so on, although I haven't actually looked at the lyric sheet in a few years, so this is from memory. The song would probably have to go on for another couple of minutes than it does in order to incorporate all the additional phrases which the lyric sheet says appeared at the end of the song.

Does anybody know why the lyric sheet contains so many additional repeated phrases that don't match what actually appears at the end of the song? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 03:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Blender" :
 * Blender: "The 500 Greatest Songs Since You Were Born: Number 1"
 * asd

Comments
General points
 * Say UK. Not U.K., United Kingdom or British
 * Done


 * Say US. Not U.S. or United States.
 * Done


 * The info box says that Billie Jean is 2 x Platinum in America, but the article body only mentions platinum up to 1989. What is correct? The RIAA website will say.
 * Checked the site. It states that it was certified platinum in 1989 and then certified gold in 2005. The platinum is for a "ST" version and the gold is a "DI" version. Which certification should be posted?
 * You can add both (to the infobox and prose). ST=Standard, DI=Digital. That's 1,000,000 hard copies and 500,000 downloads.
 * Done.


 * You can use this search engine as a source for the song reaching #2 in Germany.
 * Done.

Promotion Section
 * Is the person definitely a detective? I always thought it was a member of the paparazzi. ;-/
 * Paparazzo according to Flak magazine :)  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 20:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Billie Jean 2008
 * Didn't this chart at number 91 in Germany? I remember adding that myself.
 * I can't find a source for that. The previous source was one of those charts that change weekly.
 * OK, no problem, it's no big deal. Since it charted low, archived sites won't pick it up either. — R  2  21:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Covers and samples
 * The covers and samples should really go in chronological order.
 * Done


 * I think the quotes are too long, try trimming them or simply explain what the people said.
 * Done

Notes and referencing
 * Page numbers need a "–" between them, not a small "-".
 * Done


 * Current ref #3 (Jackson's Moon Walk biography) needs page numbers.
 * Got that bit of info from songfacts.com. I've put a request on a MJ forum for the page number. Hopefully, I'll get a response.
 * OK, no rush.


 * Need to ensure all publishing dates should have brackets over them. Eg, (February 13, 2009).
 * Done

Lead
 * The Lead should take the main points of each section (and sub sections) of the article, in the same order the article does (if practical).
 * Mostly in order


 * You need to mention Pepsi commercial, Billie Jean 2008 and covers/samples (all in general terms, no specifics) in lead.
 * Done, may need a checkover to see if it's ok.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 15:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I have the article on my watchlist, so we can communicate here. Best. — R  2  17:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the chart succession box need sourced? The first box conflicts with the prose in "Release and reception", and the bottom box has no mention in any source. Cheers for the help, I'll crack on with the rest tomorrow. :)  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 21:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No the succession boxes don't need sourcing, don't worry about it. — R  2  21:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, it's good to send to GAN. The only issue really is the page numbers, but since GAN is always backlogged, it will take days to get a review, by which time we should have the page numbers. So go nominate. :) — R  2  15:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks :)  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 16:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

"fathered one of her twins"
This doesn't make any sense. How can you only father one of the twins? Zazaban (talk) 21:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * She was insane. — R  2  21:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Though it is actually possible - if the twins are non-identical, they are from two eggs, and could be fertilized by two separate fathers. -- Beardo (talk) 00:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Billie Jean is a funk disco song
I will add references to the article, about Billie Jean and its genre. "Billie Jean" is a funk disco song, but it can also be called funk or simply disco.

The article says: "Billie Jean is considered a dance-pop R&B song". It's not true, because the term "dance" was not used in 1982, 1983. The term "dance" is used since 1984-1985. Billie Jean is funk or funk disco, not dance-pop. CHRISTOPHER CONNELLY from Rolling Stone magazine says, "Billie Jean," a lean, insistent funk number whose message couldn't be more blunt: "She says I am the one/But the kid is not my son." You can read that "Billie Jean" is a funk song in: http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/303823/review/6067536/thriller

Billie Jean is also considered R&B or R&B disco, because sometimes the term R&B is used to refer to soul or funk music, in the case of "Billie Jean" the term R&B is refered to the specific genre funk.

The disco era ran roughly from the early 1970s through the early 1980s. "Billie Jean" was a great disco song in the early 1980's. You can read it in the list 100 Greatest Disco Songs: http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/best_disco-songs.html

"Billie Jean" is a funk disco song, but it can also be called funk or simply disco. Sometimes the term R&B is used to refer to soul or funk music, in the case of the R&B is refered to the specific genre funk.

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 02:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added funk, but can't add disco as the source you provided is unreliable.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 08:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Fathered one of her twins?
why does it keep saying he fathered ONE of this womans twins? that makes no sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.234.144.79 (talk) 11:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Because the woman was mentally insane. That's what she claimed. See the thread above.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 11:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the most revolutionary song in history?
"Considered one of the most revolutionary songs in history" it says in the article. I have no idea what that means or how it could be measured. I like the song, but this sort of overstatement destroys an article's credibility. It reads as though a fan was let loose on the page and they got carried away. Just my view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We report what is written in reliable sources. That claim is from this article.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 16:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But then it should say that "Considered one of the most revolutionary songs in history by the Guradian" instead of leaving the impression that there is broad consensus that it is one of the most revolutionary songs. Even worse, the Guardian considers Billie Jean revolutionary not because of its qualities as a song, but because of the use of a music video to promote the song thus transforming MTV. That is not exactly what the average reader will think when reading that Billie Jean was a revolutionary song. So I removed it, but I guess one could readd a sentence about the importance of the song in the history of music videos, although I think more than one newspaper sarticle is necessary to establish this as a fact. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 18:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've re-added it and changed the first word to make it more accurate.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 18:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, the claim should go. It's the kind of statment that usually followed by 4+ solid citations, not just one UK rag.
 * However, your summary stating "see talk page discussion" is a bit misleading: this is hardly a discussion, more of a comment made by you. Please be more careful next time. DKqwerty (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I do not see how wording the statement without providing additional sources solves the problem. Moreover, there seem to be some major inaccuracies in the article. According to this article in Jet (magazine), http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_14_110/ai_n16807343, Billie Jean was not the "first video by a black artist to be aired by the channel". The article also slightly contradicts the story told in the music video section about MTV bowing to threats by Jackson's record label. I have tagged the corresponding statements in the article for the moment. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 19:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well that's a person who works for MTV, they are unlikely to admit to any racism, still his opinion is noteworthy I guess. — Please comment  R  2  14:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to "has been cited", as opposed to "considered". Whether it be one publication, or twenty, it is fact that it has been cited as one of the most revolutionary songs in pop history. As for the Jet publication, numerous other articles and books back up the claim in the article., , all support the statement of "Billie Jean" being the first black song and video to air on MTV.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 21:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but why then not say that the Guardian cited it as the most revoluationary song. This is a strong claim, in particular in the lead, and it is also a misleading as a close reading of the Guardian reveals that not the song is considered revolutionary, but the use of a music video to promote it.
 * Regarding the JET article, it is a rather recent article, so I suspect that the interview with Les Garland revealed new details about the controversy (the article mentions a myth that MTV bowed to pressure). Regarding first video by a black artist, here we have a clear contradiction between different reliable source, but to me it seems rather unlikely that MTV did not air a video by a black artist for almost two years. In fact, the JET article even mention some artists whose videos have been aired before 1983 (Eddy Grant, Musical Youth, Joan Armatrading, Tina Turner, Jon Butcher Axis, The Bus Boys and Donna Summer), so that give credence to the thesis that Billie Jean was not the first. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Reworded with an additional, perhaps more accurate, source.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 11:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also like to add, that according to the JET article the issue did not seemed to be as much as a racial one, as more of MTV initially playing dominantly rock music, a genre dominated by white musicians. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 22:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added that MTV refute the claim of racism.  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 14:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Why Chris Brown?
I really don't understand why there is a Chris Brown photo in this page, i think that is pointless. An image of Jackson will be more interest, i don't delete the image for 'vandalis' as someone told me in a message, but just because i thought that this image is pointless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.54.110.43 (talk) 18:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The image in question is in the "Cover and sample versions" section and is appropriate to the content of that section. An image of Jackson would in fact be inappropriate for that section as it deals with recordings outside of the Jackson catalog and performances. DKqwerty (talk) 18:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Allowing Internet forum posts from Billie Jean's recording engineer, Bruce Swedien as sources for this article
I propose that Bruce Swedien comments from the website GearSlutz.com be allowed as sources for this article for the following reasons:

1. GearSlutz.com is the leading forum for professional audio and recording engineers worldwide with over 85,000 members and 3 million posts since it began. (Rated by Alexa as one of the top sites on the Internet).

2. Gearslutz.com contains a sub-forum of the "best of the best" as chosen by the site's moderators where only posts from respected industry experts (currently numbering around twenty) are allowed. (One of the site's guest moderators includes legendary producer, Robert "Mutt" Lange.)

3. Over 150 of Mr. Swedien's posts on GearSlutz.com appear in that site's Expert sub-forum, including the one's related to the recording process for "Billie Jean".

4. Mr. Swedien has been a member of the above forum since 2005 with over 370 posts, where he has written extensively about his work on Thriller and other Michael Jackson albums.

5. The information contained in these posts are not available elsewhere, and never once has his identity on the above forum been questioned.

6. Wikipedia makes an allowance that what might otherwise be "questionable sources" are allowed:

Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

Policy shortcut: WP:SELFPUB

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources.

7. Mr. Swedien's comments meet the above guidelines as they do not not involve events not directly related to the author, there is no reasonable doubt as to their authenticity, and the article is not solely based on them.

8. For these reasons, I believe Mr. Swedien's forum posts on Gearslutz.com fall within Wikipedia's guidelines for verifiability for self-published work, and that his comments regarding the recording process for "Billie Jean" be allowed to stay.

--

Inconsistent
First states that Billie Jean is based on a real-life experience of Michael fan then says it's him and his brothers fans in this entry-although the other one still needs citation:

The song's lyrics refer to a real-life experience, in which a mentally ill female fan claimed that Jackson had fathered one of her twins.

"There never was a real Billie Jean. The girl in the song is a composite of people my brothers have been plagued with over the years. I could never understand how these girls could say they were carrying someone's child when it wasn't true."

I seen on a Michael Jackson documentary on TV that it was because of a mentally ill fan that wrote to MJ.

[6][7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.176.203 (talk) 10:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC) --74.69.176.203 (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, you have an entire article about this song, but you didn't add the actual lyrics--189.176.25.236 (talk) 01:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Question
I am unable to depict the answer from the long history... But what editor gets the "most" credit for coming up with such intricate musical minute expert details of what the song is all about, almost second by second?... Thanks in advance... I love Wikepedia... Never ceases to amaze me...Worldedixor (talk) 16:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Swedien at gearslutz.com
In the archives, an unanswered post states why it would be reasonable to use Bruce Swedien's post at www.gearslutz.com. I agree with the points made, and I note that Swedien provides some interesting details to the story. His posts in the discussion thread should be available to this article. One interesting bit from Swedien is that N'dugu Chancler's drum track is one take; not samples, not several takes spliced together. Another is that Swedien's version of the song's storyline involves the crazy fan climbing over the back fence of Jackson's residence, to be found sunning herself by the pool. Binksternet (talk) 15:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I vote for a No.2 best song ever was: Billie Jean
I've voted for a No.2 best song after I voted for a No.1 best song Smooth Criminal. TopCashBack2 (talk) 04 December 2012, — Preceding undated comment added 11:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Long intro... not longest.
"Jones wanted to cut Jackson's 29 second introduction, which was the longest one ever created at the time." Not the longest ever created. The longest Jackson created? Maybe. "Longest one" does not bear out with a simple search of ones mp3 collection. Eg. the Wings "Band on the Run", which predates Billy Jean, has a 42 second intro. And let us not discount the works of Yes and the Moody Blues which go for minutes before they reach the first verse.--71.245.86.200 (talk) 16:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I was thinking the same. Pink Floyd's Money has a 40 second intro, and 10 cc's I'm Not in Love gets to 35 seconds. Both were big hit singles and enduring classics. And how about some Donna Summer tracks? 83.254.154.164 (talk) 13:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Introduction
I noticed this in the intro
 * One suggests that they are derived from a real-life experience, in which a female fan claimed that Jackson had fathered one of her twins.

Noting that its sort of absurd for someone to father just one twin, I'm curious what the source is? 76.167.152.201 (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It is recommended to read the article before you start to complain things. It is sourced at Billie_Jean. ©   Tb hotch ™ (en-2.5). 21:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Useless link. Dance3600#*-* (talk) 05:16, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * For the record, it's not strictly impossible for a woman to become pregnant with two-egg twins by different fathers, though it's very rare. If two eggs are released and the woman has intercourse with two men very up-close in time (not sure about the time limit but probably within 24 hours, at most) she could bear the sons of both guys. ;) 83.254.154.164 (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"one" of her twins?
The line "had fathered one of her twins" is nonsensical. You can father both twins but not one of them. Not entirely sure what is meant but it certainly needs clarifying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.199.124 (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

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Tom Scott not listed in personnel
The article says Tom Scott played lyricon, yet he's not listed in the Personnel section. Why? --Meve Stills (talk) 19:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/yearend_chart_display.jsp?f=Hot%20R&B%2FHip-Hop%20Songs&g=Year-end%20Singles&year=1983
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External links modified
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I have just modified 19 external links on Billie Jean. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/yearend_chart_display.jsp?f=Hot%20R&B%2FHip-Hop%20Songs&g=Year-end%20Singles&year=1983
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Same chords as in Telex 1979´s Moskow Diskow?
Listening Moskow Diskow from 1979, that is before Billie Jean, from Telex, I think I found the same chords than in Billie Jean. In fact I remember that the first time I listened Billie Jean, sounds for me like something known. And it seems I´m not the only one that thinks that, see this phrase: "... One funny thing about that song: we tend to think it inspired Michael Jackson for Billie Jean, using the same chords. In an interview he said he got his idea when hearing a European electronic group on the radio. We like to believe it was Telex, ;-D ..." in this website: http://elektrodiskow.blogspot.com.ar/2011/11/michel-moers-from-telex-exclusive.html

Here a link to Moskow Diskow (see from second 51): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc1PpRQ-ccM

Do you think this deservs a comment in the main Billie Jean Wikipedia´s website? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis Babboni (talk • contribs) 04:42, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

State of Independence
Should it be noted that State of Independence is actually a Jon Anderson/Vangelis song? SomePersona (talk) 23:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Canned hot air
The legacy section seen [here] is a standout example of the amount of fluff and fanboy puffery that some people are able to add to an article, with the cheap excuse of "anything we can find a cite for merits to get in". That cake was in the article for a couple of years until it was taken down. Be warned. 192.121.232.253 (talk) 12:32, 31 August 2018 (UTC)