Talk:Billinge Hospital

Maternity facilities
I can't believe that the edit war on this is going on after how many weeks! Please do not remove citeable sources. Add detail about the other hospitals, don't remove cited sources. I have reverted this. Regan123 20:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

5 Boroughs
There is no need to specifiy the five boroughs. They can be found in the wikilink. I have reverted this. Regan123 20:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Whiston Hospital
Wouldnt people from St Helens areas (other than Billinge Chapel End/ Rainford etc i.e. within a couple of miles from Billinge), near or 'in' the town of St Helens have used Whiston Hospital even when Billinge was open, seeing as it was closer to them than Billinge? Man2


 * Billinge Maternity Hospital was the principal maternity facility for ALL the surrounding area. That is 'ALL' the surrounding area. Since it closed, no fewer than seven units have taken over from it. They are listed in the article, along with the 'general' areas each unit covers. Patients from these areas, who would have previously been referred to Billinge hospital, will now be referred to one of these.

"*What do you class as all the surrounding area?, Wigan-Yes, most of St Helens-No (most went to Whiston)

... Whiston Hospital was mostly used by patients on the Liverpool side of St.Helens. ie. Huyton, Prescot, Rainhill. Billinge is generally regarded as being 'on the doorstep' by people from this side of St.Helens. As for what I class as 'the surrounding area', well, that speaks for itself. Heres a few mileage figures for the 'most direct road distances' to Billinge Hospital from surrounding places ..... Wigan centre 5.3, Scholes 5.6,  Swinley 6.2,  Ince 6.1,  Whelley 6.3 .... St.Helens centre 5.7,  Rainford 4.3,  Blackbrook 5.6,  Parr 6.1,  Haydock 5.2 .... As you can see, there's not much in it. Let's have a look at the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, which you claim 'All' of it used Billinge Hospital .... Standish 7.9, Aspull 8.1,  Hindley 7.7,  Platt Bridge 7,  Atherton 11,  Tyldesley 12.6. Like I said, St.Helens people 'thought' that Billinge Hospital was 'their' maternity unit and so did Wigan people. It's what's called 'Small Town Mindedness'.

Going off the above figures, anyone with 'half an eye' can see that St.Helens is actually CLOSER to Billinge Maternity Unit than most of the places regarded as being 'Wigan'.

Citation for Wigan Borough Hospital

 * There is no such place as Wigan Borough Hospital. The hospital referred to is Billinge Hospital. 80.192.242.187 11:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

A citation has been found on Wigan MBC's website to prove that the hospital was the maternity facility for the Borough of WiganMan2 18:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Man2

Don't believe ANYTHING that Wigan MBC say in their sites. All the surrounding areas considered Billinge hospital to be their 'principal' maternity facility, not only Wigan, and all surrounding General Practitioners referred patients to that facility. It may well have been the 'principal' facility for Wigan, but it was also the 'principal' facility for the other areas as well, so it was not 'principally' for Wigan at all. When it was built it wasn't 'in' Wigan Borough. 80.192.242.187 22:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

The issue was raised at the latter end of last year. A valid citation has been found suggesting that the hospital was the maternity facility for the Borough of Wigan. The edit said the hospital was the "principle maternity facility for the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan AND other surrounding areas". Please find a citation that contests this and post it both here on the talk page and my talk page. In the mean time do not remove accurate citations. Thank youMan2 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)Man2

It didn't say that the hospital was used 'principally' by the whole of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. Billinge Maternity Hospital was used 'principally' (chiefly/for the most part) by Wigan, St.Helens, Skelmersdale areas, but the far reaches of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan are nearing Manchester, as indeed the far reaches of the Metropolitan Borough of St.Helens are approaching Liverpool, so these remote parts of the two boroughs would have 'principally' favoured other facilities. This is notwithstanding the fact that a patient has a choice of at which hospital they are treated. It seems clear to me that, instead of adding knowledgeable contributions to articles, your sole intention is to add the word WIGAN to as many articles as you can and to promote Wigan as much as is possible? 80.192.242.187 11:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
 * The citation merely contained the phrase 'Billinge .... home to the borough's maternity hospital'.

Compromise
It is often far more productive to work out a compromise rather than take an opposite standpoint and stick with it stubbornly. Can we attempt to rephrase this so that everyone is satisfied?

A few points to raise before we do so:
 * Are there any other maternity hospitals in the local and wider areas?
 * Opened in 1968, the hospital existed before the local government reforms of 1974, and thus before the borough of Wigan - what was the administrative and strategic arrangement for this time?
 * There is an over-reliance in most Wigan related articles on secondary internet sources. This needs to be addressed by using more tangible primary, or local history print sources.
 * A slight word change may be all that is necessary here.

Thanking you for your co-operation. Jhamez84 00:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Answers ....
 * The National Health Service would build hospitals to cover an 'area' linked with 'density of population'. They couldn't care less about local towns and faddy residents. Billinge Maternity Facility was placed there because 'there' was central to the population of the area to be served by it. It was built, principally, to serve it's surrounding area.
 * The 'arrangement' in 1968 was the same as in 2004, when it closed. ANY NHS Patient, registered at any 'general practice' within the surrounding area, was sent to Billinge Hospital for maternity care.
 * The problem here is that people from Wigan think that Billinge was 'their' maternity hospital. Likewise, people from St.Helens think that Billinge was 'their' maternity hospital. And so on. In reality, it was anybody's maternity hospital who happened to be having a baby! It just happened to be 'in' the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan after the 1974 reshuffle. But it wasn't 'in' Wigan. Before 1974 it was 'in' the County of Lancaster (Lancashire), but it wasn't in Lancaster either. 80.192.242.187 01:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * So, are there any other maternity hospitals in the local and wider areas? Specifically, in the rest of the Wigan Borough, or in the others you mention (St. Helens etc)?
 * There is a source that suggests that for a time at least, it was either considered or intended as a princple maternity hospital for the Met. Borough of Wigan. This is quite verifable, albeit a vague sentence.
 * Can you cite sources (I'm assuming you don't have records at hand, but I intend to mean are you that willing to research the material) that indicates that Billinger's thought it was their maternity hospital, and that it was built to serve a wider area than than of the contemporary local authority/NHS trust boundaries? Jhamez84 01:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There WAS a maternity hospital in St.Helens, BEFORE Billinge hospital took over, (Cowley Hill). There was one in Ormskirk. There was one in Warrington. There was one in Chorley. Billinge was 'central' to all those places and catered for the area in between. Everyone considers Billinge to be 'their' maternity hospital, if they live within a few miles of it, no matter which 'town' they call theirs. 80.192.242.187 02:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
 * Get it right. 'Wigan Borough' is NOT 'the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan'. And HOW can Billinge Hospital be intended as a principal maternity hospital for 'the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan' when 'the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan' wasn't even thought of when the hospital was built?


 * I have got it right; I think you are misinterpreting the source material and geographic terminology. Wigan Borough is (in this instance at very least) the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. The website cited is of contemporary origin, and given the hospital was opened just six years before the local government reforms, it is certainly talking about the Met. Borough of Wigan.


 * What confirms this is that the former County Borough of Wigan, firstly did not extend to Billinge Higher End, and secondly would be refered to as Wigan County not Wigan Borough (this is the actual archaic style guide of that time).


 * I'm not sure what your objections are to the inclusion of Wigan (Borough) on this article, in this section when there is a reference which backs up Man2's claim. This issue appears to be recurrent. Would I be right in thinking you wish to devalue Wigan's status? Or is it some other kind of objection. Please use this discussion page rather than my talk page, as this is a content issue not a personal issue thanks. Jhamez84 00:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Jhamez84 .... I 'misinterpret' nothing. There are signs which tell you when you enter the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. There are ALSO signs that tell you when you enter the Wigan Borough, within the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan (AND the signs say 'You are now entering WIGAN BOROUGH', not Wigan COUNTY, as you seem to think), I pass them daily. The Metropolitan Borough of Wigan contains TWO boroughs, the Wigan Borough AND Leigh Borough. They are both clearly signed for you to see. AND, I don't deny that Billinge Hospital WAS in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, it is a FACT that it didn't only serve the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan and it shouldn't be implied that it did.

I don't object to the inclusion of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan on this article, in it's correct context ie. the hospital WAS within the Met. Boro. of Wigan. To say that 'Billinge was the Principal maternity facility for the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan' is misleading in a way that makes it seem that it was SOLELY for the use of the Met. Boro. of Wigan, which it wasn't and, in fact, was NOT the principal facility for ALL parts of the Met. Boro. of Wigan.

So, in a nutshell, the argument is about the 'wording' of the article, which should be clearly understood. The 'bottom line' fact of the matter is .... Although Billinge Maternity Hospital actually stood within the Met. Boro. of Wigan, it's services extended to ALL of it's surrounding areas and it was the PRINCIPAL maternity facility for these surrounding areas. 80.192.242.187 12:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * Modern signs wouldn't say Wigan County of course, because the County Borough no longer exists. However, this is beside the point. Perhaps all we need here is to state...


 * "Billinge Maternity Hospital served as the princple maternity facility for several areas, including much of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan." (followed by reference which backs up the former)


 * I think this would be a better approach, satisfying the various verifiability and neutrality issues. Any objections? Jhamez84 20:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to the above. Thanks. Man2 20:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)Man2


 * I don't see why it can't simply have ...'Billinge Maternity Hospital served as the princpal maternity facility for THE SURROUNDING AREAS'. Nothing could be truer and more factual, because it DID serve THE SURROUNDING AREAS. Name one of these areas and they all should be named. 80.192.242.187 21:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * No need for the capitals thanks. Your suggestion would be an acceptable approach yes, but in keeping with external literature and that Man2 satisfies the inclusion policy with his reference, there is no grounds with which to censor out that the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan was served with some significance. Please remember, fact or truisms are not within the remit of Wikipedia's content policy, it is that of Verifiability. On these grounds I press for adopting the approach I mention above. Jhamez84 21:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You are not understanding what you read here. I don't want to censor out the 'Metropolitan Borough of Wigan', simply because the hospital stood within it, that is a fact, and that is already included in the article. However, the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan was served with no more significance than anywhere else in the 'surrounding area', that is also a fact. Also, the reference by Man2 says nothing at all relating to any significance/principal/primary service being given to the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, it simply indicates that 'parents from the borough had their children there', of course they did, and so did parents from all the other surrounding areas too! So, NO, I don't agree. 80.192.242.187 23:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * I strongly disagree with your accusation that I am inept at reading; I am making an informed decision based upon your past editting style and reading between the lines of the conjecture you put across here and on other articles. I do not disagree with your standpoint, but Wikipedia's policy dictates here ultimately, and so I will rephrase the statement per above as it conforms with every policy of this website. As mentioned before, it is the onus of you to provide a reliable and published source (i.e. beyond yourself) to contest this. Local history books would be the best place to search.


 * I should add that the rest of this article is in a poor state all involved editors efforts would be better spent expanding other sections of these Wigan articles with verifable content.


 * In addition to the verifiability polciy, I recommend you read this policy which outlines some important factors on local-perspective writing and points-of-view. Jhamez84 23:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Jhamez, don't read 'between' the lines, read 'the lines themselves', it will help you to fully comprehend what I say, instead of what you 'think' I say. Now then, I agree with the verifiability aspect, however, what you didn't notice before, I have said that Man2's 'verifiable citation' contains NOTHING to substantiate any claim to Billinge Hospital offering services primarily to the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan and, as such, should not be used as a reliable source. Indeed, I defy anyone to find any such claim by any singular area body as the same does not exist. 80.192.242.187 09:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

The source was not intended to say that the hospital provided maternity care 'primarily' (i.e. exclusively) to Wigan Borough, it was simply intended to show that the hospital was the borough's maternity hospital (i.e. that in Wigan, Billinge hospital was the place it was intended for you to go to have a child). Nobody is disputing that people from areas outside of the borough had children there, but the point is, is that for the Met Borough of St Helens, Whiston Hospital was that borough's 'intended' maternity facility and Ormskirk was West Lancs 'intended' maternity facility.Man2 10:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Man2


 * Quite right. Hospital provision was (and still is) also a factor in drawing up Metropolitan borough boundaries. This is a large reason why Saddleworth is not granted autonomy from the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham, or placed in West Yorkshire. The sentence we intend to adopt does not claim that it is the principle or exclusive facility for WiganMB, just that it was a significant centre for much of this division of land. Again this satisfies Wiki policy. Jhamez84 15:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Man, you're wrong in thinking that Whiston Hospital is a St.Helens hospital. It may be for the part of the Metropolitan Borough of St.Helens that is near to it, but for the parts that are not, as I have previously listed, the local GPs would refer patients to Billinge. Whiston is not in the Met. Boro. of St.Helens in any case. Billinge hospital served a wide area and that area should be stated in the article, not just one section of it. Jhamez, when the original plans were drawn for the local government boundary changes, the idea was to use the M6 motorway as a boundary line. This would have put Billinge hospital out of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. Would that have changed the hospitals service area? The answer is no. The same patients would use the hospitals facilities, regardless, and it would still be controlled by the same organisation, the National Health Service. Jhamez, many patients come, on a daily basis, from Rochdale/Oldham area to recieve treatment at Wrightington Hospital, between Wigan and Ormskirk. Local government boundaries do not control hospitals acceptance of patients.80.192.242.187 19:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
 * It would also satisfy Wikipedia Policy if the TRUE AREA, which the hospital served, is stated and not just part of it. As you know, Billinge hospital is located at the extreme edge of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, so is closer to many parts of the Metropolitan Borough of St.Helens than it is to some parts of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. It is stated in the article that the hospital is located in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, however it does not 'belong' to the borough, it is there for the use of any patient requiring it.

Well why do doctor's in UpHolland and Skem refer patients to Ormskirk and not Billinge (or now Wigan Infirmary) for both maternity care and general hospital referral's?. I suspect that the NHS trust that the doctors surgery is in has an 'assigned' hospital. Most of those in the Met Borough of St Helens were born in Whiston hospital (even, ridiculously, some who live in Billinge Chapel End!), most of West Lancs was born in Ormskirk hospital and most of the Met Borough of Wigan were born in Billinge hospital. No doubt some people who live in West Lancs were born in Billinge or some in Wigan Borough were born in Ormskirk! Again the source was included to show that it was 'intended' (and considered so by Wigan MBC), that Billinge Hospital would be the maternity facility for the Met Borough of Wigan. Billinge was the Met Borough of Wigan's maternity facility, that does NOT mean that nobody else is 'allowed' to be born there!Man2 23:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Man2

You are now talking daft. Doctors in Billinge, Blackbrook, Garswood, Haydock, Earlestown etc. used Billinge hospital for maternity care. Anyway, have what you all want on the article, it will be just another Wikipedia article that people will know is wrong, and there are many. I know differently about Billinge hospital, Christ on a Bike, it's on my doorstep! 80.192.242.187 18:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

PS ... Man2, Show us a citeable link to prove your statement that Billinge Maternity facility was 'INTENDED' for the use of the 'Metropolitan Borough of Wigan' and I'll show my arse through Woolworths window!

Haha, wouldn't want to miss that. So Billinge Hospital is 'on your doorstep' is it?. You change where you live every week. Are you homeless? Man2 22:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)Man2

New Photos
Does anyone have any photos to add of Billinge Hospital during demoition and since demotition to add to the site...as an ex-pat Billinger and Billinge Hospital baby it would be interesting (and probably sad) for me to see these and a useful addition to the article. Darkieboy236 09:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

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