Talk:Billy Meier/Archive 1

Reversions
I do not aim at a reversion war and indeed I don't care much about this topic, but I believe that my changes have been in the direction of general improvement and NPOV. Please do not revert without some discussion.Phiwum 19:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, but why should someone like yourself choose to venture into such a controversy such as the Billy Meier case?


 * Because the article sets a very bad example for Wikipedia. I like Wikipedia and I would prefer that the articles found here meet a certain standard for unbiased presentation.  I don't really think I set my standards very high either, but this article needs work. Phiwum 13:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

WHO DELETED MY PICTURES?


 * I did. The thumbnails of book covers look like advertisements to me.  I don't see such thumbnails on other pages and so I don't think they go here.  If you believe I've overreacted, then please show me some examples of pages where such thumbnails appear or give some other argument why they don't count as advertisement. Phiwum 17:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The only time I can recall an image of a book in an article is when the article is about the book. And even then it usually isn't done.  Bubba73 (talk), 18:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Edditing Meier on line.
Thanks for your efforts, but in case you haven't noticed Jesse, myself and a number of others would like to know why you keep edditing this page with a few added errors which you may or may not have previously taken notice. Please discuss the issue with us at- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Plejarens_are_real_2005

James Truthseeker


 * No sir, but thanks for your invitation. This is a Wikipedia page, and not a page for your advocacy group.  The discussions should stay here. Phiwum 20:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, You're right, it is a Wikipedia page, but be advised that it's not just you're page either. In fact, Billy Meier and his group at FIGU can in-force the legal rights to have this page removed should they request it and since the page's topic is specifically focused on them and their controversy and not you.


 * You know that's utter nonsense, right? As long as the page is not libelous or infringing on copyright, there's very little FIGU can do.  In any case, I am not advocating replacing one bias with another.  And I'm certainly not claiming this page as mine. Phiwum 13:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't like their advocacy group, then perhaps you should not be putting your foot down in their issues in the first place otherwise yes you can expect to get your feet muddy for choosing to trek within these muddied Waters. Not just from Billy and FIGU, but also from the skeptics.


 * I think you mixed one metaphor too many. No idea what you're on about, but I'm sure you feel it passionately.  Phiwum 13:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Discussion Resolution
TerraX, is that you???

OK I'll tell you what, if it is you and I and a few others that are edditing this page, then OK you can email me and vise versa and LET'S us both work on this together on this OK???, I'll tell the others not to interfer. AGREED???

OK let's make this neutral!!!

James Truthseeker


 * Are you asking if I am TerraX? The answer is no.  In fact, you already know my name.  Try googling and you'll find easily verifiable information of my identity. Phiwum 21:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I failed to answer your other questions. There's no reason to take this to email.  We can just as well work it out on this talk page.  Let's do that. You start, since I've said what I dislike about the article already.  What parts of my changes do you dislike?  And why? Phiwum 21:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * OK now that we know you're not TerraX, then OK let's work this out. My changes were actually some improvements on what was already written here, from you and from some other Meier supporters whom, I'm familiar with. While I found some other stuff written out by some other people which I was also attempting to work on for awhile, it was not long before I found your deletions. So let's start from the begginng. Finnish up all your editing the way it is, then when your done I'll make any corrections I may find and if you disapprove then we'll both discuss it along with further ideas for some improvements which can possibly be made. After we have "nutral page", then we can expand out on both sides, whether that be from the skeptics point of veiw or from Billy's, Michael Horn's, FIGU's and so on... (J-Truthseeker March 26 2006)


 * I don't intend to re-write the page much. I really am not very interested in Meier, but this page needs attention from a neutral and knowledgeable party.  (I may be neutral but I don't know much about Meier and I don't intend to spend much time studying him and his critics.)


 * Among things that obviously need attention: the formatting of the criticism section doesn't fit the Wikipedia standard. More importantly, it is biased towards showing that Meier is reputable, by pointing out that he calls other contactees frauds.  Of course, this is utterly irrelevant to criticisms against Meier.  Finally, regardless of your opinion of the scholarship found in Korff's book, there should be a balanced discussion of the book on this page.  The book is influential and to fail to mention it is inexcusable.


 * These are a few of the things I've noticed. I may make changes later, but I don't have a grand scheme for what I'll do, so there's not much reason to proceed in the way you suggest.  By all means, edit the page in ways you believe are NPOV improvements and we can discuss the results.  This is much preferable to a useless revert war.  If you want to know why I made the changes I did, I'd be happy to explain &mdash; including my removal of the two recent paragraphs.  Just ask. Phiwum 07:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

OK I think we are getting somewhere, good. I hope you don't mind me saying, but for someone who may not know to much about Meier as yourself, I'm surprised that you got this far as you did with this article. As for the 2 deleted articles which I had not decided what to do with myself before you deleted them, that was actually written by a guy in Brazil in which case after editing it, a POV reference could be attributed to him in a separate subtopic in his expressed disapproval to whom he was directing it, etc. And not just for him, but others also. BTW: Billy Meier does not call other contactees frauds, I also have a list of people somewhere of what he calls "Real UFO contactees and UFO experiences" such as; Dan Fry, Kenneth Arnold, Wilbur Smith, along with a host of others. Unfortunately much of the details from Meier regarding who he said was real and who isn't, was deleted by UFO investigator Wendelle Stevens in his book report publications. This in particularly led to further unnecessary conclusions about Meier from people. In one or two cases that I know of, Meier and his Plejarens have made errors regarding this which they have already admitted to.

As far as giving comments to Korff's book, I have no problem with that even-though "in my opinion" there are more skillful skeptics then say Korff, But that too can also be referenced and added into a POV subtopic to this one. (J-Truthseeker March 27 2006)


 * Norm and Jesse, why are your adding and deleting pictures??? (J-Truthseeker 1:10pm March 27 2006)


 * I think I've given my reasons: the thumbnails give the impression that Wikipedia is Amazon. Other articles do not include thumbnails of referenced materials.  I'm sorry if Norm went to a lot of work to add them, but I don't find them appropriate here. Phiwum 21:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Attention request
I have posted an attention tag for this article. I would like some input from other knowledgeable editors. I did not find a good category for the request, so I put it in "astronomy", but if other interested parties have a better suggestion, by all means let me know. Phiwum 21:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually you need not have done that. I think you would have been just fine as you were. Also the category of Astronomy I think is still quiet different then say that of UFOs or UFO-ology. Assuming of course these can be found in Wikipedia.


 * Of course astronomy is different. But it's the closest category I saw for this topic.  The category list can be found at Pages_needing_attention.  Feel free to suggest a better one.  Phiwum 07:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps there is a way of adding UFOs to the category list found on pages needing attention. (J-Truthseeker March 27, 2006)


 * I think it should be there, but I don't know which of the broad categories it belongs under. Bubba73 (talk), 16:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Predictions
Shouldn't we have a section or subsection on Meier's predictions and scientific insights learned from the aliens? These seem noteworthy, especially the catastrophic predictions regarding the Toutatis comet, discussed here and here. Any suggestions where and how to discuss this? I propose a subsection in the criticisms section, but I prefer not to write it myself. Phiwum 20:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have this info myself somewhere from Michael Horn, I can do it as soon as I get around to it. (J-Truthseeker 1:00PM, March 27, 2006)


 * Sounds good, but please be sure to include some material from skeptical sources, too. Also, we don't want a comprehensive listing of hits and misses, but maybe just some representative bits.  Just like you (or someone) did in the discussion of photos. Phiwum 21:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Models in photographs
Is there a better citation for the models on a table allegation? Here's the text:


 * Perhaps the most damning evidence in the skeptics' view was submitted from a reporter investigating Meier's story, who claims to have found negatives clearly showing the models on a table.

The current cite is, but it is a very, very brief account. Surely there's something a bit closer to the source? Phiwum 21:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've ordered Korff's book. I'll try to find it (and other places where a citation is wanted).   Bubba73 (talk), 03:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I cited a few things, but I haven't found references for several of them. I found the photo of the two women that was taken off of a TV screen, but there is no mention of it being from the Dean Martin Show.  I haven't found anything about a model from a Sears catalog.  I haven't found anything about machine bolts, but there is one with carpet tacks.  Bubba73 (talk), 15:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks much, Bubba. We could also use some citations for counterclaims mentioned in the article.  Perhaps James Truthseeker and others could provide these? 15:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion from PNA/Astronomy
. This article is fairly blatantly biased in favor of this UFO photographer and investigator. I'm not sure that astronomy is the right category for the request, but a little balance is in order and I'd appreciate someone that knows a bit about the topic. Phiwum 21:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * interdimensional hypothesis. This article is nonsensical. Not only does it present a series of highly questionable assertions as fact, but it reads like the output of automated translation software. Ramon123 22:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks like pure speculation while under the influence of some intra-dimensional mind-altering substances. There appears to be nothing on the page that is readily testable, so it's at best quasi-rational philosophizing. The page could use some references to prove that it's not actually complete and total bunk. :) &mdash; RJH 22:10, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Category deletion.
I figured I would mention this here first. Would there be any objection to deleting the tiny Talmud Jmmanuel and Billy Meier categories? There is a grand total of 4 articles among both... and two of them are the namesake articles.

Now, small categories are fine (See Category:Historical Christian denominations for an example; I've added 3 of those personally, but clearly it could be much larger)... so long as they have potential for expansion later and are sufficiently general. Are there going to be vast piles of articles on Talmud Jimannuel? I somewhat doubt it. Everything of importance you'd want to know is linked from the Billy Meier and Talmud Jmmanuel pages. There's no need for a category. SnowFire 20:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The proposal is now posted and at Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 19, for the interested. SnowFire 15:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Gradual deterioration
Every so often, a Meier devotee adds yet another section on an important but esoteric facet of Meier and his remarkable contacts. I have removed one of these and greatly reduced but kept the WWIII prophecy. But Semjase really does not need such detail on an article about Meier and not his Plejaran pals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phiwum (talk • contribs) 02:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

How about converging the Bible into the topic Jesus?
About the suggestion made on the page Talmud Jmmanuel


 * I see what kind of dumb suggestions people are making. There come a critique on this article to make NPOV, there comes suggestion to totally vanish this article. VirtualEye 16:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think Talmud Jmmanuel is notable enough to warrant its own article. It seems it has more enthusiasts within Wikipedia than outside of it. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Humus Sapiens. The article by itself is not so bad, but the lack of interest from the scientific community, or any interest in the book that is not related to its "discoverer" for that matter, would make converging a smart move. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gidonb (talk • contribs) 02:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Sorry about not signing. Thanks for adding the signature! gidonb 22:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

keep seperate it belongs under New Age texts a person doesn't besides I do think there are several reasons why the articles should not be merged--Java7837 04:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Alien Movie Edits
I know this sounds completly stupid, whean i was trying to watch the Alien beamship movies this guy took, whean i clicked on play, a song from the real player popped up instead of the movie. what if those aliens edited it so you could'nt watch the movies like the aliens were somewhat trying to get this guy to stop taking pictures etc. could it have been theam?--Sonicobbsessed-The Self-Proclamed Ultamate Sonic Fan 22:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC) I also had the same thing happen. This is very weird. I think aliens are hacking my computer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.168.85.70 (talk) 07:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh totally. It totally was them.  They even told me, through telepathic magnetic waves.  THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE 76.188.2.195 (talk) 20:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Removed "TV Interview" section
...as the YouTube videos have been taken down. Here's what I removed: --Weakmassive 15:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Seoul Broadcasting System (SBS) - News Report
 * Nippon TV - Billy Meier showing locations Video Clip

What's really happening here?
I’ve been interested in the Meier case for over twenty years mostly due to it’s entertainment value, even though I myself am incredibly interested in the UFO phenomenon. However, as it seems, more and more people are becoming true believers, or proponents, in this case I just want to remind everyone of the importance of the historic timeline in which this case is centered, and, of course, wherein the entire UFO case is based and when it all started. In 1942, the year Meier reports as the start of his involvement with these proposed extraterrestrials, the first Haunebu disc saw flight. The Vril discs had already seen years of use by this time, although not war-worthy use. The Allieds were also reporting flying discs and balls of light which clearly were intelligently guided during the early ‘40s. There’s no saying what a five-year-old farm boy living in the Swiss Alps would make of seeing such a disc, let alone one parked on his land with an old man standing outside of it; our imaginations may not even come close to what young Meier made of it.

Many UFO researchers, and Meier-case researchers in specific (such as Lee Elders, Randy Winters, Wendelle Stevens and Michael Horn), are leaving much of the details out, and this should not be done. Although most of us are still trying to forget what the Nazi’s did during this time, we must do our own research into their scientific advancement and vast technological achievements before and during the war if we really want to draw a reasonable conclusion to the Meier case and others like it; such as the Adamski (Haunebu disc) case. I say, “do our own research”, because American history books make no mention of it and no institution of education mentions much of Nazi technological advancement, which was quite high. Don’t forget Nazi and German scientists are the ones who put us (USA) in space (Von Braun) after the war.

Another Meier case-specific detail which most researchers and proponents have left out is the detail that these supposed extraterrestrials, whom are reported (by Meier) to speak perfect German and are described (by Meier) as appearing inarguably “Aryan“, talk a lot about enlightenment and spirituality based completely on ancient Hindu and Chinese philosophy. Don’t forget about all the expeditions Himmler sent to Tibet, India, and China in the early ‘30s in search of the Holey Grail and any signs of ancient Aryan man. Who knows what those expeditionary elements brought back with them. One absolutely damning detail, which researchers like Stevens and Winters flat out refuse to divulge, is the extensive lesson Meier was supposedly taught by the Plejaren about destroying Israel and killing all Jews. How could someone propose a case like this and leave out the details that link the Nazi’s to the case without appearing biased. If we’re going to sell something, especially something as historically detailed and significant as this case and what it has done to our beliefs, we can’t leave out details that anyone can discover if they use someone else’s research and not just those of one opinion.

All things being equal, there’s no doubt that Meier saw something extraordinary. He irrefutably documented a case which will defy all modern day logic. He undoubtedly spoke to someone who knew more about technology, philosophy, spirituality, science, and astronomy than he himself could ever have learned without help, a lot of it. The question remains, who were they? Were they aliens who could bend time and space and travel 400 light years in seven hours? Did he meet with aliens, whom to this day choose to share their knowledge only with a farmer living in the Swiss alps? Aliens who’s philosophy makes them appear frighteningly like Nazi’s?

As entertaining as the whole UFO phenomenon is, we must all remember the fact that the whole thing, even the term “Flying Saucer”, is based on our incredible imagination, fueled somewhat by what an amateur pilot saw over the Washington skies that he described and even illustrated perfectly as nine Horten flying wings skipping along in late June of 1947. And what happened when one of those flying wings exploded over an airbase over the New Mexico desert and was later found by another farm boy two weeks after the Washington State sighting? We went saucer and extraterrestrial crazy, and we are still to this very day trying to figure it all out. It’s about time somebody changed one detail in our history books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2blackop4$ (talk • contribs) 02:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Bill Meier is just a hoaxer who wants attention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.233.216 (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

News source and lead comments
I just read a news article that I thought might be a good source to perhaps some new information. UFO Skeptics Throw in the Towel - How Did Meier Beat NASA by 32 Years?. I quickly read the lead and thought I'd make a few comments. Is there a need to say both "alleged and self-claimed"? Don't they sort of mean the same thing in the context? The "claim" term is used three times in the lead. Both this and the term "alleged" are words to avoid. If he states this, it might be better to just say that. Something like ""Billy" Eduard Albert Meier (February 3, 1937) is a citizen of Switzerland who claims to be a UFO contactee. He is also the source of many controversial UFO photographs, which he states are evidence of his encounter. Meier reports on his regular contact with the extraterrestrials, who provide him with spiritual and philosophical information. He describes the Plejaren (aliens from the Pleiades) as humanoid, much like the humans of Earth." Morphh  (talk) 3:12, 05 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like an improvement to me.--Editor2020 (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed section
I just removed the section claiming Meier is a megalomaniac. As you can see, the section does not cite anyone claiming that Meier is a megalomaniac. It does cite some of Meier's writing as evidence, but that puts the section squarely in WP:OR. Phiwum (talk) 02:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The redirections and the wikipidia-links on this page are bullshit. When I click on the link of SEMJASE, I´m redirected to this page again. Same as many links on this page. Is it the aim of this page to block as much titles as possible? Dragonfly2008 (talk) 16:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.189.217.54 (talk)

Fake info in this article
The last paragraph titled "world war three" assumes that bill meier denounced that "the terroristic activities and vigilante behaviors of various Muslim extremist groups, which he says only foments the possibility for war". This is racist and fake, dont even in the referencee 22 that this paragraph has, is written a single word about that racist paragraph. Billy Meier has denounced for many years the war pilosophy of many countries, as the dead penalty. He has been talking for years about the need of a future of true peace for all the humankind, regardless of skin color, race, and fate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alhalkab (talk • contribs) 03:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Suggested merge
Since Meier's aliens would appear to have little independent notability, I suggest merging whatever can be salvaged from Pleiadeans to this article. Moreschi (talk) 13:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I don't see anything that shows Meier's idea of "Pleiadeans" has notability on its own. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A fair and reasonable solution. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree with above. Scoop100 (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality
This article seems to present a non-neutral point and view and should be flagged Mathiusdragoon (talk) 04:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In addition, an article about a person should be chiefly biographical and not so much about the controversy that occurred as a reaction to what he did. That, it seems to me, would warrant a separate article. All this article states is that Billy was a "farmer." Well, I don't know that he's ever been a farmer! He traveled extensively. He lost his arm in some godforsaken place. He worked as a security guard. And now he is trying to be a sort of guru teaching what he learned. So this article - as a biography - is certainly not yet up to snuff. L e cox (talk) 23:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You have unusual opinions about what is appropriate in an article about a man whose single claim to notability is his purported encounters with aliens. The fact is that this article should be primarily about those claims, not a summary of life events that have no particular interest. Phiwum (talk) 00:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This article is just ludicrous and a piece of propaganda.187.13.80.100 (talk) 15:22, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Bearish
I had hoped to read something interesting here, but I found it all extremely bearish.

For instance, Meier speaks of a DAL universe: You have to know that in Germany or Switzerland, the letters "DAL" are a familiar sight, they're printed on toilets and water taps, because it's the name of the manufacturer.

The UFO ("beamship") sounds are all too familiar: They're a common occurrence in many 50's or 60's movies that deal with UFOs or spacecraft. They're generated by a simple sine wave synthesizer.

Meier's drawings of extraterrestrians are involuntarily comical: They all look like people from Switzerland. Perhaps Meier felt alienated in some way, I don't know. But he certainly can't draw properly: Many things are out of proportion, not just the earlobes.

It all sounds like some backforester's fantasy.

I've read too much good science fiction, I guess, to find any of this remotely interesting. Nothing to see here, move on. 79.227.169.101 (talk) 03:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)