Talk:Billy Strachan

Military career info box
I've embedded some fields into the info-box, you might want to fill in the missing data for them. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Hey I just saw what you did, selecting "module" and then adding a second mini infobox attached to the first. I had no idea that this could be done and I'm extremely excited that you've shown it to me. This will be very useful to me on some of the other pages I've edited including Charlie Hutchison and Bill Alexander (politician), and Clem Beckett :) BulgeUwU (talk) 12:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * We meet again.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Billy Strachan's RAF flight crew.jpg

Changes in the lead - discussion and timing
I'm glad more editors are showing an interest in this page but @Jagmanst these changes to the lead couldn't have come at a worst time. The GA Review only started a few hours ago. Multiple editors also worked very hard during both the peer review and failed FA review to create the perfectly balanced lead.

There are other issues to such as his CPGB membership being mentioned in two paragraphs, and the changes make it sound as though it wasn't his hotel which was bombed but some other hotel, etc. The words "newspaper editor" should be kept in the lead seeing as he is notable for being the editor for one of Britain's earliest black newspapers Caribbean News. "British legal expert" also needs to be kept as Billy Strachan also contributed to multiple fields of British law including adoption, matrimonial proceedings, and drink driving, and held numerous high level positions in British courts.

How would you feel if we changed it back to the original and then we call you for final comments near the end of Liewee's GA review? This way we all get say without stepping over eathother. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Ye no problem. Jagmanst (talk) 10:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool, I'll make sure to tag you when the GA is coming to a close :) Also tagging @Llewee so he sees this. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * My main suggestion is the first few sentences in the lead should focus on his most important contributions (I suggesting picking two). I also thought some minor details could be omitted in the lead, and it be made more succinct. But I think it can wait the review process. Jagmanst (talk) 03:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing
@Llewee - Since this issue has come up at ANI and at other pages, it should be noted for the GA review that a lot of the sourcing here is dubious in quality and much of it does not appear to be independent of the subject and is essentially communist party-origin. Taking some examples:
 * 1) Caribbean Labour Solidarity, of which Stachan was a founder, published Billy Strachan 1921-1998 (apparently pamphlet, not a book, as it was 30 pages long), and it was re-published by the Communist Party of Britain. David Horsley is a member of the Communist Party of Britain. It is not clear that this pamphlet or Horsley are independent of the subject.
 * 2) Simon Meddick is the leader of the Bristol, Bath & Gloucester Communist Party of Britain. Liz Payne is the chairwoman of the Communist Party of Britain. Phil Katz is head of communications for CPB. Manifesto Press Cooperative Limited does not appear to be a well-established publishing house. It is not clear that Red Lives: Communists and the Struggle for Socialism is independent of the subject.
 * 3) www.africansinyorkshireproject.com appears to be a blog. The article relied on on that website is sourced to an interview with Strachan (i.e., not independent coverage).

This is not to say there is no independent coverage at all of Strachan, but I think an article written based on independent sources would probably be quite different (but way more NPOV) than the present one. FOARP (talk) 10:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


 * , I have started a discussion on this subject at the good article nominations talk page. Llewee (talk) 11:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

And more
I looked in yesterday and didn't have time to type this up there, so will add it here. There are also close-paraphrasing and source-to-text integrity issues: That wording is sourced to Sherwood's own paper, yet it is copy-pasted from one of the few independent and reliable sources used in the article, page 56 of Stephen Bourne's book (you can borrow the book at archive.org and read pages 54 to 57 for the entry on Strachan). I checked all of the Bourne content, and also found source-to-text integrity problems: So I suspect some of the content comes from places other than what it is sourced to, and a closer look at source-to-text integrity and close paraphrasing or copyvio is warranted. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  12:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Following his death, Strachan's friend Marika Sherwood paid tribute to Strachan in the newsletter of the Black and Asian Studies Association.
 * Struggling to afford the trip to Britain, he became the only passenger on a ship sailing to the United Kingdom, which had previously arrived in Jamaica full of wealthy passengers escaping the war in Europe for the safety of the Caribbean.[9]
 * Bourne does not say only passenger and does not say wealthy.
 * He was prone to "joyriding" and attempting dangerous tricks that his instructors did not approve of. During a training flight in a Tiger Moth aircraft, he crashed the aeroplane and was sent to Ely Hospital in Wales.
 * Bourne does have the joyriding bit, but not the aircraft or the hospital.


 * Based on what Wizard said over on the Harry Pollitt talk-page about using a non-independent source and then googling to find other sources, I suspect what happened was a case of using a non-independent source (most likely Red Lives) to provide the information and then just googling and switching out the non-independent source for another. FOARP (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Likely. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep. See 5 May 06:44 followed by 06:49; the best source of the lot was an afterthought, tacked on to pre-existing text. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

And an example of puffery: the article cites this content (in an awkward called-out section): ... to Meddick and Horsley, a writer for a British communist tabloid. This source calls it a "remarkable achievement", as does this source. Neither calls it "rare", and yet this statement is summarized in the lead as (emphasis added): It remains to be verified if the "extremely rare" comes from Meddick, not an independent source as described at the ANI, or if it is original research. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Strachan rose to the rank of flight lieutenant within the RAF, a rare achievement for a black person in 1940s Britain.[2][10][25]
 * Rising to the rank of flight lieutenant, an extremely rare achievement for a Black person in Britain during the 1940s

This kind of content should not be sourced to a British communist tabloid: Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC) Nor this: .. which is not attributed to the British tabloid, although the need to do so, and to use Horsley more carefully was pointed out by and  back in May. Horsley and the Morning Star are still used quite extensively, and without attribution. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * According to the Morning Star, Strachan strategically allowed the British princess Anne, daughter of British Queen Elizabeth, to serve as the charity's president, while he himself served as the charity's vice-president.[36]
 * Racism continued to plague his civilian career, as he was denied promotions in the civil service based on his race.[25]