Talk:Binge drinking/Archive 1

Not Very Good
Surely an article about binge drinking should just be about the phenomenon of binge drinking itself rather than an excuse for people to complain about specific countries drinking habits. There must be binge drinking in every country, so whats the point in going through just a select few of them and making it sound like the entire population enjoy going out and getting completely legless every weekend. The whole article reads like an excuse for people to have a go at countries they don't like. I'm definitely not impressed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.197.8 (talk) 13:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The article requires serious editing. Much of it is too colloquial, or unsupported. Some sentences are so bad that they read as though the author was on a binge at the time.JohnC (talk) 22:00, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

We need a history section. Does anyone have statistics of alcohol consumptions in the past. Was there a binge drinking culture among teenagers 100 years ago? What was the effect of the temperance movement, and prohibition in the USA?JohnC (talk) 22:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above points. "The UK binge drinking culture is also evidenced by the rather unique social phenomena of relatively large groups (8–15) of men/women (of vary different ages) going, without their partners, on a holiday abroad (typically to Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany or other traditional beer countries) with the main purpose of getting drunk together, often in broad daylight." This sentence is a definite dig at the UK! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.4.220 (talk) 19:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Mentions increased risk of alcoholism in later life too many times, under Effects on teenagers. 58.161.195.77 (talk) 10:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The intro is wrong. "Binge drinking" is not a definition! It is the terms which then needs to be defined.124.197.15.138 (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Section on Canada
Does anyone else find the section on Canada... a little weird, or skewed? Especially in contrast with the sections on other countries? I mean, it might as well be a friggin' footnote on the University of Ottawa page, since it has more to do with UoO than canadian binge drinking in general. There are hundreds of universities in Canada, and binge drinking is by no means exclusive to a small one in the middle of Ottawa. Not only that, but it is also by no means exclusive to university students at all! --137.207.238.106 08:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

5/4
Just an anonymous reader here, not sure if I'm doing this right... but for as much as the "5/4" definition is mentioned, it is never actually said what that is. I still have no idea.
 * To echo what the previous anonymous reader said: I've never posted on a talk page before (and have no idea if I'm doing this correctly), but from reading the article, I don't know what the 5/4 definition or the "recognized medical/clinical definition" is. I would correct the entry if I knew the facts.
 * I concur with the above two... I really have no idea what the "disputable" 5/4 definition is. Why mention it at all?--Krick 04:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The 5/4 definition is defined at the top of the page:
 * "One of the commonly used thresholds for 'binge' drinking is 5 or more drinks for men and 4 or more for women per occasion. This definition has gained a foothold within the social sciences literature and has influenced media reporting of drinking behavior."
 * --137.207.238.106 08:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Alcohol Tolerance
Under "binge drinking", this sentence doesn't entirely ring true to me:

''The major exception to this generalization is that of alcohol tolerance in alcoholics who develop tolerance for the effects of alcohol. Therefore, an alcoholic who is legally intoxicated may show no clinical signs of intoxication.''

It implies that a person with a blood alcohol level of, say, 0.15% will be perfectly capable of handling a motor vehicle so long as he is an established alcoholic. This flies in the face of research and experience -- that kind of person merely THINKS he's OK to drive.

I'm about half a step away from removing the statement. My point in what Justin David so obligingly terms a "generalization" was to dispel the notion that some people can handle it better and so should get in the car and drive when they're legally drunk. Go ahead and have fun, just don't take it on the road.Guernseykid 07:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That's an excellent edit by David Justin. Guernseykid 17:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Guernseykid.David Justin 01:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's actually true that an individual who has tolerance to alcohol as a result of ongoing regular use is likely to be better at handling a motor vehicle at a BAL of 0.1 than he or she would be at 0.0. There's plenty of research out there showing just that. That is actually the definition of tolerance: an individual who requires a greater amount of a given drug to result in the same effects that would be obtained with a lesser amount of the drug in a non-tolerant individual. Drgitlow 02:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV problem. the first sentence of this article, although perhaps wise, is not from a neutral point of view.

npov
the first sentence of this article, although perhaps wise, does not represent a neutral point of view.
 * I think there are more points where de text is not neutral. It is better that the text should point out in what damage Binge drink results than expression why Binge drinking is wrong. Stick to the facts and let the reader conclude what he/she thinks about heavily drinking! Scafloc 21:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Headings
Title "Other areas" changed due to america only being a small percentage of area effected by binge drinking, so seems irrelevant to define the rest of the world as "other areas".
 * I've removed that level of headings entirely; it wasn't necessary.-gadfium 18:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, i would have done that. But they choose to revert what i delete.

Staying on-topic
Under the "Europe" category, there does not appear to be any discussion about binge drinking. The connection between early, responsible exposure to alcohol and prevalence of binge drinking should be explained. Do these practices successfully curtail this behavior?

Two-days
I've seen some people define binge drinking as drinking to get drunk or having more than 4 beers. On the other hand, several-day drinking sprees are benders -- I would think you could binge drink in just one night. 70.218.200.200 17:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Physicians and other clinicians have long defined a binge as a period of intoxication lasting at least two days during which time the binger neglects normal activities and responsibilities. See Binge Drinking.David Justin 19:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That may be, but I think there's a genuine conflict between the definition in this article and that common in the UK, especially as used in the press (both by journalists and those making statements). For example, look at the quote below from the BBC (under "Crazy binge-drinking British people") which talks about "binge drinking culture". Whatever people in other countries understand by the term, the quote is not, to my British way of thinking, talking about a culture of 2-day drinking sessions. It's talking about people getting themselves drunk on nights out. That article contains an sidebar saying "Binge drinking is classed as consuming more than 10 units of alcohol in a single session for men and seven units for women", and there's an article from the British Medical Association which talks about possible definitions for "binge drinking", and certainly doesn't support the definition in the article.
 * This wouldn't be terribly important (since it's perfectly reasonable to have an article about 2-day drinking sessions, irrespective of what the British Government chooses to call "binge drinking"), except that the UK section then talks about "binge drinking" in universities, and legislation "intended to tackle binge drinking". The behaviour referred to in universities, and the intent of the Licensing Act 2003, is far more to do with the British definition than the article's definition, and hence the references are confusing or misleading. If anyone in future adds any British statistics on "binge drinking" then the contradiction of definitions would mean the data would almost certainly be just plain wrong. So I think that some kind of note on the different commonly-understood definition, perhaps just in the UK section, is in order. Onebyone 01:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd second the point about the cultural definition of binge drinking, from a uk point of veiw binge drinking has little if nothing to do with the time aspect of measuring inebriation and much more to do with the quantity Xuberant


 * Citations should be from a reliable source. Dr. Hanson has a PhD in Sociology and is not a medical clinician. In fact, binge drinking is sometimes described in the medical and scientific literature as being "consumption of half the weekly recommended units at a single session," where a standard unit is 8g of absolute alcohol. (See Descriptors and accounts of alcohol consumption: methodological issues piloted with female undergraduate drinkers in Scotland. Gill JS, Donaghy M, Guise J, Warner P. in Health Educ Res. 2006 Jun 1; [Epub ahead of print]). Generally it is described as excessive use on a single occasion, with no time limit to the duration of that occasion. I was unable to find any citations by physicians or reliable clinical sources indicating a binge to be defined as a two-day ongoing use of alcohol. Drgitlow 20:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I third this opinion. I know that "binge drinking" started out as a description of the pattern alcoholics usually follow, but I think among college age kids there's a very different connotation. as someone said earlier, "drinking to get drunk", or fully intoxicated. playing drinking "games" comes to mind

The term 'binge drinking' has an important historical dimension that illuminates the debate going on here. For centuries in the US and UK (and I presume then-Commonweath countries, certainly Australia), binge drinking did indeed mean maintaining an intoxicated state for several days. This applies during the twentieth century also - the founder of AA, for instance, describes his binges - days of intoxication, not five standard drinks in an evening. That medical associations want to determine healthy levels of alcohol consumption, or that the media wants to demonise youth, matters not at all to the definition of 'binge drinking.' The term does not describe what medical associations use it for. It has never meant the number of standard drinks consumed. It has always meant maintaining intoxication over several days. Descriptions of appropriate levels of alcohol consumption require a separate entry, since binge drinking has had, and continues to have, a meaning independent of medical usage, even if medical associations seem hell-bent on co-opting the term. Indeed, the news-media and medical assocations use the term 'binge drinking' rather than, say 'excessive drinking' precisely because the term 'binge' is more spectacular, and it is so because of its historical meaning. This, of course, only further proves the point.

Fiction
Also, binge drinking is often a theme of classic novels, like A Farewell to Arms. It's a relatively normal thing, right? Is the term itself POV? 70.218.200.200 17:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good point. This article needs an historical account of the term.

Country order
Shouldn't the country order on this page have some system? Looks a bit random at the moment. Kansaikiwi 05:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Bonkers
The section on the UK was obviously written by some Daily Mail reading fascist.

OK, we British like a drink, and admittedly that can lead to problems amongst certain people. Go to any town centre at a weekend and it looks like Dante's Inferno. But so what?

The fact that I get absolutely hammered every Friday and Saturday night, and spend the rest of the weekend in bed feeling rough is hardly cause for massive concern, is it?

Crazy binge-drinking British people!
"Britain's binge drinking culture is costing the country £20 billion a year, according to a government report. The study by the Prime Minister's Strategy Unit shows 17 million working days are lost to hangovers and drink-related illness each year.  The annual cost to employers is estimated to be £6.4 billion while the cost to the NHS is in the region of £1.7bn. Billions more are spent clearing up alcohol-related crime and social problems. In addition, alcohol-related problems are responsible for 22,000 premature deaths each year. "

You should be concerned. Then again, looking at the foolish nation as a whole, binge-drinking isn't just accepted ... it's encouraged! People in their 40s boast about vomiting and being drunk. Britain is going down the pan, and most people can't see it.

The only crazy people are the ones who defend the pathetic binge-drinking culture.
 * Sorry, I'm a little confused. Either the binge drinking people are crazy, or the only crazy people are the ones who defend them. Unless the former is a strict subset of the latter, which to me seems unlikely since there are bound to be some binge drinkers who wouldn't actually defend it as a lifestyle, it can't be both. So exactly which people is it upon which you are passing a (no doubt professionally qualified and cooly considered without bias or emotion) mental health judgement? Onebyone 02:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, that same report concluded that the UK takes 7 bn a year in alcohol duty, and that the industry is worth 30bn per year to the UK economy (and I doubt that figure includes jobs treating alcohol-related problems). I make it that if a 30 bn a year industry is costing 20 bn a year elsewhere, we're 10 bn in profit. So the financials are in favour of drinking - best stick to the health risks if you want to dissuade people! Onebyone 02:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Research suggests that there's a net saving of lives caused by drinking alcohol in the UK  and in other countries.



Why are the points of view of a French footballer and an American actress considered important here? Are they sociologists?

I think the points of view as mentioned above are not altogether that relevant - the quote from the footballer has not even been referenced. Including these quotes add a bias to this section. (Emiwee 17:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
 * The quotes in question are utterly out of place. Ginola's quote is more alarming for its misogynism than its condemnation of binge drinking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.254.242.117 (talk) 05:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Binge drinking in Australia
''In Australia, a nation with a reputation for consumption of alcoholic beverages, it is estimated that 9/10 young adults aged 15-21 drink to excess at least once a month. This is despite the legal drinking age being 18 years. The subculture of drinking in Australia has been largely linked to the heritage of the country. People have always drunk heavily and the younger generations mimick the older ones. Unfortunately there is no end in sight to what experts are calling an epidemic and when high profile Australians, particularly Rugby League stars, are setting such a bad example that end doesn't appear to be getting any closer. Prime examples of this are Penrith Panthers star Craig Gower and Melbourne Storm sensation Michael Crocker.''

That section has some serious problems. First of all, the legal drinking age does not apply on private property. Second of all, all this stuff about 'no end in sight' and an 'epidemic' seems a bit melodramatic. Binge drinking isn't really a major issue in the media at the moment unless you're watching A Current Affair.

I suggest cutting down on the hyperbole.MickBarnes 09:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No citation/Hearsay/non-NPOV
"...The student unions have endless drinks promotions, and are fuelling the problem."

The second part of the sentance is an unjustified statement of fact which sounds more like the opinion of the writer than somthing NPOV.

Unless there are objections, I will amend it to something like "For all the aforementioned reasons, it can be argued that they are fuelling the problem." Note the words 'can be' rather than 'is' in order to comply with a similar standard.

Situation in the Europe (vs. US)
In the section on Europe, there is the following sentence: Note that morbidity and mortality secondary to alcohol intake is much higher throughout these countries than in the United States. (referring to either Scandinavia or the Southern European countries, or both)

No source is cited for this claim. Also, the Global Status Report on Alcohol 2004 by the WHO has a table about alcohol-related mortality (page 57), and the figures there do not support the claim made here.

--zeno 07:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * A nice discussion of the issues involved is available at www.weinberggroup.com/Independent-Review-Alcohol-Consumption-in-Europe-Report-12June06.pdf. One of the problems with the literature is that it is largely based upon mortality reports, as you note in the WHO report, which themselves aren't particularly useful. For example, if one dies as a result of driving while intoxicated, the cause of death is "motor vehicle accident," not "alcohol-related accident." Similarly, death due to hepatic failure secondary to alcohol intake is recorded as hepatic disease, not as alcohol-related illness. Death certificates and other retrospective data are therefore worthless in terms of their ability to assist in determining alcohol's contribution to morbidity/mortality.
 * The WHO notes that alcohol in Europe causes 9.2% of all ill-health and premature death. Between 40% and 60% of deaths from intentional and unintentional injury are attributable to alcohol consumption. The total societal costs of alcohol amount to between 1% and 3% of the gross domestic product in the European region. (see http://www.epha.org/a/1669).
 * The European Union is the heaviest drinking region of the world, with each adult drinking 11 litres of pure alcohol each year – a level over two-and-a-half times the rest of the world’s average (WHO 2004) (see http://ec.europa.eu/health-eu/news_alcoholineurope_en.htm [Chapter 4]). Chapter 5 provides the rest of the data necessary for support of my original entry into the article. Ultimately, morbidity and mortality are higher as a result of higher alcohol consumption on a per capita basis.
 * As an aside, I'm in the US and frequently have patients ask me why it is that Europeans seem to have a much higher intake of alcohol than we do, yet get away without significant damage. I'm not certain as to why that is their initial belief - the Europeans are doing a tremendous amount to deal with their ongoing alcohol-related morbidity - but for many decades there has been this perception of Europeans drinking alcohol without harm coming their way. The statistics tell quite a different story, and though the Americans don't seem to have noticed those, the Europeans have. Drgitlow 21:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello,

thank you for the quick reply (and sorry for the delay until I noticed that you replied). I still have some concerns:
 * 1) For example, if one dies as a result of driving while intoxicated, the cause of death is "motor vehicle accident," not "alcohol-related accident." - the WHO study takes traffic casualties into account. In Germany, for instance, drivers are tested for alcohol and other drugs after traffic accidents.
 * 2) The European Union is the heaviest drinking region of the world, with each adult drinking 11 litres of pure alcohol each year – a level over two-and-a-half times the rest of the world’s average (WHO 2004) - the average for the US is 8.51 litres, which is also higher than the world's average.
 * 3) The sources you cite deal with the high alcohol consumption in Europe and the problem of gaining good data for statistical analysis. Of course I agree on that. What is still missing is a source showing figures supporting the claim that mortality and morbidity are much higher than in the US. I have no certain opinion on that - it may be true or not - but it would be better to cite a source.

With kind regards, --zeno 13:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You make very good points. Is your primary issue with the word "much?" We know, for example, that in the EU, alcohol intake is roughly 20% higher per capita than it is in the US. We would therefore expect morbidity/mortality to be higher as well, but there could be many reasons for that not to be the case (e.g. better laws against drunk driving, a smoother distribution of alcohol intake across the population rather than high intake individuals offsetting nondrinkers, etc.) The WHO study indicates higher alcohol-related morbidity/mortality but not "much" higher and it doesn't seem to be higher by the percentage one might expect given the alcohol intake differential. Is eliminating "much" satisfactory? Thanks, Drgitlow 23:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

comparisons to the US
Everything here seems to be written in comparison to the US. Every country should be considered individually, not in comparison to America. Obviously this article was originally written by an American, but the article should be less centred around the US. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Notch (talk • contribs) 23:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

NPOV in U.S. section
There are a LOT of opinion statements and it is difficult to understand. I am tempted to delete anything without a citation. CelticLabyrinth 03:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite
I am really disapointed with the quality of this entry, why is it divide by country? I would wonder if anyone else agrees. Also, it says PREVELANCE of binge drinking in these countries, not every little minute detail of everyones opinion on binge drinking. I would imagine prevelance could be displayed in a chart. This article really, really needs some work.CelticLabyrinth 03:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree - how come the US is a sub-section of the UK? The UK also escapes the European paragraph... Very strange.Faltenin 12:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see, there's no real dispute in this article at all. Everyone seems to agree that it has not got a NPOV and is generally littered with irrelevant bits of biased and unsubstantiated "facts". I have cleared out one of the "major" offenders from the UK section as consequence, but I agree that this entire article needs a rewrite. -- Sarah 14:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Why a "record" in the Australia section?
The unsourced line "Such a person that is held in this regard is John Wharton,17, of Townsville who was able to drink 40 shots of vodka in only 4 hours" not only doesn't meet standards (no reference, adds nothing to the article) but is also dangerous, prompting readers to "beat the record". I suggest the line simply be deleted. Faltenin 12:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the line yesterday and thought about it later. A Google search for '"john wharton' townsville vodka' brings up nothing, except the Wikipedia article. Unless a citation can be found soon, it should be deleted, as it looks like vandalism, and even if it isn't, it's irrelevant and (as Faltenin points out) possibly dangerous. And 40 shots of vodka in 4 hours? That's around 1.2-1.8l of alcohol. I find it hard to believe. Edward Wakelin 19:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the purpose of the Further Reading section?
This section adds nothing to the binge drinking article. It is just an argument of the legal US drinking age and has nothing to do with the act of binge drinking itself. I believe this should be deleted. Furthermore, its not written according to Wikipedia standards. --Geniustwin 17:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Changed some references to "most" European countries having moderate intakes
It's really only most of the Beneleux and Mediterranean countries which don't binge drink (there're exceptions in both camps) - pretty much everywhere else binge drinks. 82.16.78.145 —The preceding  signed but undated.

First paragraph
The first paragraph made no sense, probably due to a missed symbol of some kind while inserting image and reference, soo I have deleted it. Someone more wiki-savvy than me (ie not a complete novice!) would probably be able to sort it out though, so the deletion wasn't meant to be permanent. Sabrage (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Improving the article with a historical perspective on "binge drinking"
Looking at this it seems unclear what people are trying to write an article about. This subject is of interest to me as I'm interested in moral panics, and there seems to be one underway about alcohol at the moment- a neo-prohibitionist drive, effectively. To have an article about binge drinking one needs to discuss where the idea of "binge drinking" has come from all of a sudden. Everybody now talks about "binge" drinking.

I'm British and until very recently, "binge" here meant to get absolutely hammered, a serious, serious drinking session, synonymous with a "bender"; just as say "binging" on food would mean the overeating a bulimic does (without the purging :) Now suddenly all over the media a "binge" is just more drink than doctors recommend, more than a feeble two or three pints, which to the average bloke on an evening out is just getting started so's to speak. It's clear that there has been a concerted campaign to redefine the word "binge", and it's happened across the western world.

So far as I can tell in my feeble researches on t'internet, the term traces back to one Henry Wechsler, who has a wiki page, and has made a career out of talking up a campus drinking scare in the USA. He's at nanny central, Harvard, and has had some $6.5M in funding from the temperance orientated Robert Wood Johnson Foundation which reports, again on the internet, indicate have funded anti-alcohol health campaigning to the tune of upwards of a quarter of a billion dollars(!) so best guess it that their network has pushed the term "binge drinking" on his behalf. There seems to be a concerted, very well funded effort to denormalise even moderate drinking via the health networks. Of course this is my "original research" but clearly there is something interesting to write an article about here regarding the origin of the term and demonisation of "binge".

At least I think there is anyway. Ha.82.71.30.178 (talk) 03:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What you are writing is really interesting. This article says that binge drinking is drinking two 500ml 6% beers. Industrial-strength bingeing means drinking four beers. But isn't it in reality two-three-four beers just a light daily/every other daily dose of alcohol? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Any460 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

What
So binge drinking, in other words, is just drinking with the intention of becoming intoxicated..

Whoa, how unusual. I thought that binge drinking was something like chain smoking. -- nlitement [talk]  15:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more! I've discussed it below in the section "definition of binge drinking" XQx (talk) 07:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems have become conservative in recent times http://www.politics.co.uk/briefings-guides/issue-briefs/health/binge-drinking-$481506.htm XQx (talk) 07:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect references
Reference #13 is incorrect. Correct reference is

Title: Underage College Students' Drinking Behavior, Access to Alcohol, and the Influence of Deterrence Policies: Findings from the Harvard School of Public Health College Alcohol Study.

Authors: Wechsler, Henry; Lee, Jae Eun; Nelson, Toben F.; Kuo, Meichun Journal of American College Health, v50 n5 p223-36 Mar 2002

Suggest checking all references.

131.247.142.72 (talk) 18:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)