Talk:Binokel

Typical Wikipedia...
This article is on the main page where it proudly states:
 * [Binokel], from which the American card game of Pinochle was developed in the 19th century,

Whereras as the Pinochle article says in its second sentence:


 * It is derived from the card game bezique

So which is it? Before this article was published on the main page, I would have thought someone would have checked this was the case?86.128.26.123 (talk) 22:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Well first of all, it's not really the job of the DYK process to check the veracity of all other related articles in Wikipedia. The DYK statement is backed by an authoritative source and we were satisfied it was right. Meanwhile, I've checked the sources again and it would appear that Binokel may have been derived from Bezique's predecessor, Besi. So Bezique and Pinochle are related but it's not accurate to say Pinochle was derived from Bezique; it was derived from Binokel which in turn probably came from Besi. Interestingly the Pinochle article doesn't cite any sources for it's bold, but IMHO misleading, statements. I'll go and change it now. Bermicourt (talk) 09:14, 23 December 2018 (UTC)


 * My edits at Pinochle were reverted, so I've moved this discussion to Talk:Pinochle as it would appear to be more relevant to that article. Bermicourt (talk) 20:51, 23 December 2018 (UTC)


 * From further research, the sources suggest that Binocle (Binokel) and Bezique appeared at roughly the same time and were followed shortly thereafter by Pinochle which is frequently described as a German game or played by Germans in America. That and the similarity of the names, is a strong indication is that American Pinochle was, in fact, originally Binocle brought over by German or Swiss-German immigrants. Whether Binocle was derived from Bezique or vice-versa or whether both came from a common ancestor (Besi?) is still unclear. Bermicourt (talk) 12:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

German synonym for the playing card suit “Eichel”
According to the websites spielregeln24.de and schwaebisch-schwaetze.de the German term “Kreuz” is used as a synonym for the playing card suit “Eichel”. Can it therefore be added to the article or is the term just used for a french card deck?


 * It's true that Clubs in French packs are the equivalent of Acorns in German packs. But they are not the same, either in symbols or terminology. In the first reference above, it seems to me that they are just stating the equivalence i.e. Acorns = Clubs in French-suited cards. In the second, they do appear to use Kreuz instead of Eichel; this may be a Swabian usage; if so it is highly unusual. I have dozens of German card game books and have not come acros Kreuz as a synonym for Eichel. See the German article Eichel which simply says that "it corresponds to Clubs in a French pack".
 * However, if this is a common Swabian term for Acorns in Binokel, then the article should mention it. If you can find other sources which verify that, please share them. Bermicourt (talk) 12:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * References