Talk:BioShock/Archive 1

SecuROM
Does anybody know whether SecuROM has uninstallable files in the retail version of Bioshock? I know they do in the demo. Jarwulf 08:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a rootkit. Installed as part of the demo and not removed even after uninstall... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Winter Blast vs Cryo Shards editing
Recently a video came out involving the Creative Director of BioShock and one of the level builders showing three methods of tackling a room. The video showed the HUD. One of the Plasmids had a different name which said Cryo Shards.--24.7.162.39 01:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The video in regards to this discussion is at http://www.gametrailers.com/player/21277.html--67.161.191.137 01:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Rapture & Plagiarism
Selections of this article are either plagiarised from http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/rapture.html, or vice versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.45.7.200 (talk • contribs)
 * I wrote one of those sentences over a year ago. I'd guess that some more was written by other here.--Drat (Talk) 10:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Joe
In the Bioshock previews, the developers constantly refer to the player character as Joe. Should this be substituted in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.200.31 (talk • contribs)
 * Joe Faulstick, the Associate Producer for the game, is the guy playing the game in the E3 video.--Drat (Talk) 03:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Engine
Isn't bioshock built on a very heavily modified version of the Unreal Engine 2.5, rather than the Unreal Engine 3?--Dbd 11:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * According to this topic, they are still using the Vengeance engine, but "the rendering engine and lighting has been completely re-written". Look for chumpface. That's Ken Levine. I've changed back the bit about the engine, and linked the topic.--Drat (Talk) 12:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This information is correct. The current engine is known as the Vengeance Engine 2 (VE2), and is heavily modified from the VE1 version used in Tribes:Vengeance and SWAT 4. The rendering engine has been completely rewritten from the ground up to be DX9-based and HLSL-driven with HDR, realtime soft-shadows and dynamic lightmaps, and Shader Model 2.0 as the minimum (SM 3.0 preferred). The core of the engine has been optimized for the CPU and memory requirements of next-gen consoles, as well as taking advantage of multiple processors for rendering, physics, audio, and asynchronous data loading. It has been revised to support streaming assets and checkpoint-style savegames, and there are completely new subsystems for audio, UI, and animation. (note: I am not sure how to make this information verifiable, but I am on the development team for this title.) --Chriskline 17:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * During an Interview at E3 2006, Ken Levine responded to a question asking about Unreal 2.5: "No, we've moved to Unreal 3, we've done a lot of modifications on top of it, all the water effects we've added, and we've added a lot of features like water..." E3 06: BioShock Interview Transcript --mriker 15:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Add the info and cite the source. I'm taking a backseat as I'm going on a self-imposed info-blackout until its released. I want to avoid spoilers.--Drat (Talk) 15:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

BioShock using UE2.5. and australian studio not using UE3.0. it's still modified UE2.5. not 3.0 Irrational Games Jobs page "Unreal 3 Material Shader Editor", "Unreal 3 Editor". that's not UE3.0 editor. it's "UnrealEd 3.0" editor. UE2.5 editor version is a UnrealEd 3.0 including UT2003, UT2004, Unreal 2 and many licensees Unreal Engine 2.x games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3d engineer (talk • contribs)

Unreal 3
Ken Levine, the head person behind the game said they were using Unreal 3 at E3 in May.

From:

AMN: "Speaking of the graphics engine, it's running on Unreal 2.5 right?"

Ken: "No, we've moved to Unreal 3, we've done a lot of modifications on top of it..."

If you don't believe me, read the full transcript or watch the video here (skip to about 18:00).

There's also this:

Ken: "it's all powered with the Unreal 3 engine..." (skip to 5:20).

I don't care what Chris Kline said above. That was in February. Ken's interview was in May. Funny fact: A lot can happen in three months. Unless you've got a newer source saying they've gone back to Unreal 2.5, leave it as it is.--Drat (Talk) 14:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

it's not. not using UE3.0. BioShock still based on UE2.5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3d engineer (talk • contribs)

As DX10 only will be available to Vista, and that UE3.0 requires DX10, this game can't be released to XP. Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by RedSaint (talk • contribs)

No, UE 3 does not require DX10. RoboBlitz and Rainbow Six: Vegas are Unreal Engine 3 games and do not require DX10. UE 3 was designed to work on DX 9/10, Xbox 360, and PS3. It is powered my UE3, not 2.5. Bioshock could not look that beutifil running on a 2.5

Ayn Rand
Perhaps this article should mention that this game was influenced by Ayn Rand (Andrew Ryan, clearly a word play). A.T. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.220.246.20 (talk • contribs).
 * Certainly. Ken Levine has stated numerous times that her works are an influence. But you'll need a source for the Andrew Ryan bit (obvious now you mention it, but too speculatory for article space).--Drat (Talk) 04:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a recent screenshot with "Atlas was right" sprayed across a painting. This would suggest a link to Rand's Atlas Shrugged, which deals with the collapse of civilisation after all the great minds stop thinking.

Link to image: http://www.firingsquad.com/media/galleries/bioshock_aug28/05.jpg

(It's also possibly a reference to Atlas as the King of Atlantis, though I'd suggest this is less likely). -- Warthog2k 10:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There's further evidence of Rand's influence posted by Ken Levine on the TTLG forums: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1501213#post1501213

It's an interesting discussion, though I'm not sure how much of it would be relevant to the Bioshock topic. More specifically I'm unsure how it should be presented within the article. -- Warthog2k 12:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It would probably go under influences? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.176.225 (talk • contribs)

Which studio?
Is this being done by the Quincy studio, or the Canberra studio? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BrotherEstapol (talk • contribs).
 * The Quincy studio.--Drat (Talk) 23:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Platform
I think the listed platforms should be changed to only show the confirmed ones. Speculation about a possible ps3 port is discussed in the article but I don't think it should be stated in the info box as a definite until it is confirmed by the developers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.234.111.45 (talk • contribs)
 * This is a scan from the Official Playstaion Magazine(UK) http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/biops3.jpg, reported here http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=13149 and also listed as a Ps3 game by gamespot, any other sources to confirm that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.120.79 (talk • contribs)
 * It's not coming out for PS3, at least as it stands now - http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/bioshock/rumor-debunked-bioshock-not-coming-to-the-ps3-225240.php --Rodzilla 07:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Also stated on the official site as Pc and Xbox 360 only, and not PS3. Darthnader37 22:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Bot vandalism
Were those edits really necessary? >:( JAF1970 01:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

DirectX 10
Anyone know if Bioshock will run under DirectX 10 or 9? The DirectX version should probably go in the article since the game engine (accurately?) is alrady in there. This would probably be helpful to some readers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.181.82.100 (talk • contribs).

DX10 --Trusader 22:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, positively, ZERO games will be DX10-only (at least for the next 3-5 years). That's a totally nonsensical and rediculous propsition for anyone. PC games don't make money as it is...why would any company slash their potential customerbase by such a startling degree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.130.41 (talk • contribs)

I think he was asking if it was going to support directX 10 and use some of its capabilities. That is important to add in the article if someone can find out. We all know its going to support directX 9.0c. But I haven't seen anything about 10. Crysis will be supporting both and I believe many more games in the future will support both like you said for another 3-5 years. But saying PC games don't make money is just dumb. Any game has the potential to make money depending on its budget and its outcome (if they didn't generate any profit, then they wouldn't be made).155.109.5.21 17:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * PC Games still make a lot of money, especially in Europe. After scouring the web for a while (about 3 minutes ;P), all I have been able to find is that it supports DirectX 10, but not actually find any official sources saying so, just a bunch of fragmented posts by random people. Torte... of Doom! 21:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is the answer in its entirety (directly from the cult of rapture, the official bioshock community site): DX10 UPDATE April 25, 2007 Many of you have been asking if BioShock would utilize DX10 feature set. The official answer is that yes, BioShock will be utilizing DX10. However, for those of you who won't be upgrading by August, don't worry. BioShock will also run with DX9.

And here is the link for you nonbelievers http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darthnader37 (talk • contribs)


 * Many thanks! :). Torte... of Doom! 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Added a sentence about that to the Engine section of the article. --asqueella 13:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Release Date?
I know the official release window is "Spring 2007", but someone from 2K games on the Through the Looking Glass forums has said here (5th post down) that it is now scheduled to be released "June 2007". Is this worthy of note in the article? -- Grandpafootsoldier 07:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Independent Research not allowed
I've worked on research materials and encyclopedias. Hello? They UTILIZE INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. (rolling eyes) JAF1970 16:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems you don't understand the policy. At Wikipedia, you are allowed to use someone else's original research (within certain copyright-related restrictions, along with proper citation). What is not allowed is original research by contributors of Wikipedia specifically for Wikipedia. Stale Fries taste better 19:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Big Daddies"
Me latest issue of PC PowerPlay says that these Big Daddy things are actually called "Big Brothers", which compliments the "Little Sister" creatures' names. Also note I am too lazy to look into this myself. Razorthe6249th 10:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It may still be up in the air. In the Developer Walkthrough they are referred to as Big Daddies, but that came out in September. Kalaong 00:10 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"Trailer Monologue"
BTW, we have to find a way to get Andrew Ryan's monologue from the first trailer in here somewhere.


 * A man has a choice. I chose the impossible.
 * I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor.
 * Where the great would not be constrained by the small.
 * Where the scientist would not be bound by… petty morality.
 * I chose to build… Rapture!
 * But… my city… was betrayed by the weak.
 * So I ask you, my friend. If your life were the prize, would you kill the innocent? Would you sacrifice your humanity?
 * We all make choices… but in the end, our choices… make… us!

Kalaong 00:19, 16 February 2007
 * Why? This isn't a fansite.--Drat (Talk) 11:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Bleah. Just thought it described the game world well. Reminded me a bit of the scene in Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow with Laurence Olivier. Not to mention it was really cool. Not impressed, huh?

Kalaong 06:30, 16 February 2007
 * Being "cool" is not one of Wikipedia's aims.--Drat (Talk) 13:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Tragically obvious on so many levels. 24.218.218.9 02:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well actually, if you think about it, it does give you a bit of an idea on the story from that guy's point of view. 209.250.132.217 02:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Engine
http://www.irrationalgames.com/company/aus_jobs.cfm#LevelDesigner

Here at Irrational Games we can boast about taking gaming innovation to the next level. Our recent success at the EEE saw us take out the much coveted 'Game of the Show' award for Bioshock from IGN, Gamespot and Gamespy. IGN also saw fit to dub us their 'Developer of the Year 2005'.This is the type of exposure and experience you can share by joining our award winning team in our Australian Studio.

Based in the heart of Australia's national capital, Canberra, we are experiencing booming success in the industry and due to this growth we are in need of experienced and passionate Level Designers to join our team.

Level designers are directly responsible for creating gameplay through level building and scripting. You will need to combine a strong aesthetic sense and interest in creating visually interesting spaces with an ability to understand how gameplay is created. You will also need to possess the technical skills to ensure that your levels work within the constraints of the game technology.

As a level designer, you will be directly supervised by the lead level designer who will review your work and determine if it is artistically and technically sufficient to use in the final product. You will be required to work with artists, designers and programmers to ensure that your work is appropriate for the game design.

At Irrational, we are currently working with Unreal Warfare™ technology to create next generation titles. Experience with this technology building mods or commercial products will be highly valued but similar experience with other technologies, like Half-Life™ or Quake™, is also valued.

"Unreal Warfare™ technology" is not UE3.0. it's UE2.0 used to previous using irrtional's SWAT 4 and Expansion and later build UE2.5 used to previous using irrational's Tribes Vengeance.

BioShock is a UE2.0 or UE2.5 too and irrational's new project [X-COM] will be using UE2.0 or UE2.5 too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unico master 15 (talk • contribs).
 * That is original research. Besides, Irrational's Australian studio is only loosely working on Bioshock. The devs working on Bioshock have repeatedly stated they are using Unreal 3. IF and ONLY IF you have a source (and a relatively new one too) that explicitly says Bioshock is using Unreal 2.5 or 2.0 or anything other than 3.0, can you change it.--Drat (Talk) 04:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

fan sites
external links should be kept to a minimum. this is not a link farm and there is simply no reason to include links to a fan site that is already in the link section of the offical site. basically, the information that is provided by adding a link to the offical site already includes all fan sites linked from the offical site. therefor, adding links already included on the offical site merely clutters this article. Tetracycloide 16:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Morality Issues
I'm surprised no-one has commented on the fact that you can kill children in this game. And it's very graphic. Most people would say there is something very wrong about that, despite Ken Levines excuse about giving the player 'morality choices' do we really need a game that encourages slaughtering small children? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fangor (talk • contribs) 02:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Your an ass. Just my opinion, but it's true. Just shut up and die now, please. kthxbye
 * STFU and go back to eBaumsworld. 83.77.234.88 19:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Morality seems misrepresented here...it's been said you can’t kill little sisters on a few different gaming sites, and the BioShock Community site Cult of Rapture says you can only "harvest or save" them. Poblan 01:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Poblan


 * This isn't a discussion forum about the game.--Drat (Talk) 06:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Come on, killing is wrong period. It doesn't matter the age of the victim. What you said sounds like "Don't kill the children, but adults are fair game". This game wants to engage the player on a deeper level than the standard kill-everything-that-moves FPS fare--Cyhborg 10:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't show it when you kill them, it just goes to a black screen. Plus, the game gives you a lot of rewards (better ending) for NOT killing the Little Sisters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The violence against children "enemies" in this game is definitely an issue. Should be added, it will be inevitable anyway. --172.212.233.23 05:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a little bit about that last night with a cited source. Someone has since deleted it.  May I ask why?  I'd add it back myself, but I don't want to be accused of being in an edit war.  CardinalFangZERO 05:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

System Shock influence
Unfortunately it seems 2K have taken a rigid stance against mentions of their competitors' products and IPs. Hence, lead designer Ken Levine is no longer allowed to talk about System Shock 1 & 2 and how they have influenced this game. Just as well there are many old interviews making such mentions.--Drat (Talk) 13:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Lead designer Ken Levine has often mentioned how BioShock was envisioned as a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock franchise and how those titles have influenced this game. 64.131.175.229 01:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Poblan
 * It's kind of retarded, if you ask me. Especially since System Shock 2 was developed by- suprise- Irrational. dethtoll 21:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a mention that PCGamer UK were told at a visit to the Irrational studio's that the staff consider it a Shock game. I don't know how to do references I'm afraid but here is the link: http://mos.futurenet.com/video/pcgamer/podcast/PCGamerPodcast5.mp3 80.41.212.195 20:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

PlayStation 3
The game is not being developed for PS3. Stop adding that it is, unless a NEW source arises (not an old source from last year), confirming development for the PS3.--Drat (Talk) 07:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Code relating specifically to the PS3 was found in a PC demo for Bioshock. Is that a new source? Sortika 13:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sources are forum boards, based on a singular error message from the game (not so much code, just the title/information in an error dialog). Its not verifiable yet. --Masem 13:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I moved this information again. There are three articles that are being cited.  The sources are reliable, I'm not questioning that, but the way that they are justifying a PS3 release is NOT.
 * The article about the error dialog with both 360 and PS3 mention is only speculation. Maybe 2K Bo/Au is thinking ahead and making a generic engine that runs on both systems, though BioShock is contract-exclusive to MS systems.  Too much intepretion here.
 * The second article is reading between the lines of a couple of statements from MS and from 2K, none which specifically mention a PS3 save for a very very early announcement of a game, but since has not been mentioned at all. I could infer, the same information, that there's a Wii version to be come out, and a DS version, and a mobile phone version.
 * The last article is basically using the lack of a mention of PS3 development as supporting PS3 development. Again, I could infer a Wii version was being made from that information too.
 * It doesn't help that these two articles both have "RUMOR" in the title.
 * Now, I'm not throwing the baby with the bathwater on this. That's why I inviso-commented out the references.  If a PS3 version is truly and officially announced, some of those references can be used to help justify the timeline of development.  But as they are, they are rumors with high degress of speculation, even if from a reliable source.  If the rumor was closer to something like.  "Ken Levine mentioned that a PS3 version of BioShock was not off the table" (THIS IS NOT A FACTUAL QUOTE, JUST AN EXAMPLE!) then I would think that that is at least something that we can say that there's a potential for a PS3 version and include it. But those specific sources that you picked do not do an adequate job of saying that there's a positive acknowledge of a PS3 version from 2K games, and thus those specific articles are not reliable and thus should not be used to support a mention of a PS3 version at this time. --Masem 13:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Trailer information
The game trailer is such a good one and unique. I've created a section and done quite a bit of work on it, although as I'm sure you know theres some words that are inaudiable in the trailer, but I did my best to get the right ones. :) Daveuk07 17:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Currency
The Initial Story section may contain an inaccuracy: according to a post on the Cult Of Rapture Forums by a member of Irrational (seen here ), Adam is no longer the currency in the game as it was originally. Therefore, Adam may not be the dominant currency in the city as it is stated in the Initial Story section. Psyclone 01:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Plasmids
Possibly an interesting detail that shows the designers have done their homework : "plasmids" in microbiology / molecular biology are DNA molecules that can be transferred between microorganisms under certain conditions or artificially introduced into cells by researchers to genetically modify the organisms, conferring additional genetic characteristics that are not essential but may give a fitness advantage in terms of evolutive fitness. This has important consequences. In nature, transmission of plasmids between bacteria is one of the main causes of the widespread problem of antibiotic reistances, for example. By using this concept to represent special abilities, in parallel with the slogan 'Evolve!' the game designers enhance the science-inspired backstory and ambience. It's an interesting choice because the details will be lost on most users, yet they took the trouble anyway. Maybe it would be worth pointing out in the article? IGollum 09:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It'd be original research if you put it in the article, without word from the designers.--Drat (Talk) 12:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * True, I can't speak for the designers, so I'm only speculating as to their motivations for choosing that word. But the parallel with the scientific reality of plasmids is interesting in itself, I think. (disclaimer : I'm a microbiologist working on plasmids, so I think everything about them is interesting... I'm especially thrilled to see them popping up in a game, so I want everyone to know about them ^-^) IGollum 01:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In the end its still used largely as hand-waving to implement fanciful abilities though, like firing lightning. Question on the side, how long would it actually take for any effects introduced by plasmids to manifest? CABAL 11:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Tonic section
Whoever created the tonic section obviously did so by copying text directly from the official Bioshock website. Unfortunately, since that info was clearly written in the style of being an in-game universe advertisement, I think the tone is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, some of that text is rather cryptically written so it can't be re-written. Should that section be deleted until further info be released? Psyclone 19:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ammo Types
I've been looking at the "Fisheries Developer Walkthrough" trailer at Gametrailers and noticed something: I don't think that all weapons have the same three ammo types: if you look closely the pistol in that trailer is fitted with "Standard Pistol Bullets" and the other types I assume are the anti-personnel and anti-armor. This maybe true for all the weapons that use actual bullets (Pistol, Shotgun and Tommy gun), but the others, such as the crossbow and grenade/RPG launcher, will obviously use others. Therefore, I'll alter the part about the "three ammotypes" with the part about "one that has to be revealed" Psyclone 09:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Customization
Half of this section seems to be written like some sort of cheesy in-game advertisment (even though the game isn't released.) BURNyA 17:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Cleaned it up a bit. Removed the fansite/ad-like crap and just kept the lines detailing, in simple terms, what each customization does. dethtoll 21:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Nifty BURNyA 21:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Bioshock 2
Anyone notice that in the September 2007 issue of PC Gamer (U.S.), the front cover claims to reveal "Bioshock 2 + your 1st look at Fallout 3!". Yet I couldn't find anywhere in the issue, not even in the preview of Bioshock, any mention of Bioshock 2? What am I missing? Is this just an example of false advertising and PC Gamer lying or what? 72.49.194.69 01:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua

If anyone doesn't feel like checking their local newsstands or gamestop/EB to see if my story checks out or not. Please visit the PC Gamer website at http://www.pcgamer.com/ On the first page of the website they have a section called "On Newsstands Now...." which displays, legibly, the front cover of PC Gamer I was talking about. 72.49.194.69 03:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua


 * It's probably a mistake. Given that most games these days are sequels, whoever was doing it probably just put the 2 on by accident. Maelin (Talk | Contribs) 06:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the responce, sometimes it's hard to get a responce in these discussion boards. You are probably right, in which case, I got all excited over nothing but a front-cover top-story misprint. It just surprises me that no-one at the PC Gamer editorial team noticed this before sending it off to print, such a glaring error. I guess they are definatley not a punctual people. But yes, thank you for speaking on the topic. I actually have other topics in discussion for the articles, 'F.E.A.R. sequel' and 'Vengeance Engine' and 'Too Human' and 'The Sims' and 'Half-Life 2: Episode Three' and 'System Shock 2', all articles I started thread(s) for in their prospective discussion board, which no one has commented upon so I rarely get the word of Wikipedia editors. 72.49.194.69 21:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua


 * Well in EGM (July), Ken Levine does mention Bioshock 2 when the writers mentioned some minor gripes about the game.--Cyhborg 16:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason it is "sometimes hard to get a responce in these discussion boards" is that this is a discussion board about what should or should not be included in the article/ entry. It is not a discussion board/ forum where you can post quasi-related issues that have no real relation to the article. Unfortunately this will probably continue to be an problem.

The issues I mentioned in the discussion board are not quasi-related but rather directly related to the article. Go read my stuff in System Shock 2 and Half-Life 2 Episode THree and F.E.A.R. Sequel and Vengeance Engine and The Sims, all the aforementioned have to do with citation issues, when information is given in those articles without a citation or source. That is not me writing about quasi-related stuff, for example, the Vengeance engine article discusses Xcom as using the Vengeane Engine 3 though there is no indication of this and Irrational never formerly said this. In the F.E.A.R. Sequel board I noted that there is no mention of which game engine the title is using. In the Sims board I asked where we got the source for a claim made about the Sims 3. So on and so forth. Not quasi-related if you actually read anything I wrote. 72.49.194.69 21:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua

It's real nice that you ignore me too. 72.49.194.69 20:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

Enemies
The enemies section seems to blur ingame and real world information. It also seems more like a narrative than an objective description. I'm not confident enough in my own writing abilities to fix it, but I think it needs attention.Anthr4x 17:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Release Reviews?
What happened to Bioshock's Pre-Release reviews, it had a review of OXM 10/10 and PC Gamer 9.5/10.--Joseg70 04:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hoax?

 * The UK's Official Xbox Magazine stated that, in their next issue, dated August 2, a demo will be available for BioShock, but this proved to be a hoax.[7]

Was the claim really a hoax or simply untrue? The ref doesn't work BTW Nil Einne 10:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism and content
Is all the vandalism gone? It looks like this revision has some information that may have been lost from the current version. With so many revisions, it's hard to make sure that nothing has been lost. Opinions? --GargoyleMT 14:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

But the vandalism is for my "Unreal Engine 2" modifications? Reading up there it doesn't seems a so mistaken change. It's not a so much important info, but still I'm not sure that the correct denomination is "Customized Unreal Engine 3". I'm not sure I've done Vandalism, so if it's for me, please remove the Vandalism state. --Monopoli 03:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summary
Could somebody write up a brief plot summary for this game before the section which describes the entire story in depth. I feel this would be more useful for the majority of casual readers. Yeanold Viskersenn 14:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, since the game isn't yet out, I doubt anyone but the designers can follow through on your request. 72.241.165.155 00:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Check the release dates in the article for a major surprise. Parjay ► Talk 01:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, 2500+ words for a VIDEOGAME plot, isn't that a little bit too much? I mean, come on. 23 August 2007. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Hence the tag at the top requesting it be cut. Stabby Joe 13:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It would likewise be useful to tag the plot, as it stands now, as a spoiler for the entire story.


 * We don't indicate spoilers on wiki any more. If you don't want spoiled, you don't read a plot summary - it's quite simple. Parjay ► Talk  13:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a demo?
In the article it states there will be a playable demo of BioShock. It does not state a reference and as far as I can find on the Internet, there has been no official announcement on this matter. Explain? There is a Bioshock demo for the Xbox 360 for sure, I just played and yes it look very good (especially the water). As for on a computer I don't know. And why there has been no official announcement I don't know.RedHurricane 04:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is in fact a demo for the PC. Both Steam and FilePlanet offer the demo, maybe other places as well. --CCFreak2K 10:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, through what appears to be a fluke, FilePlanet accidentally offered the unencrypted PC demo a short time before it was actually supposed to be released. While they did fix this, enough people had grabbed it that the demo was being spread throughout torrent sites and the like. CABAL 11:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Article needs to be moved
This article needs to be moved to Bioshock. 2K Games took out the camelcase 's' quite a while ago. Here is a source. If you're too lazy to go there, here's an excerpt:
 * No longer will we be able to refer to it with that much hallowed moniker, as BioShock now becomes ...(pause for drum roll) Bioshock (note that revolutionary small 's').

So yeah. An admin needs to move this over the redirect at Bioshock. Couchpotato99 18:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Admins aren't needed for moves over a simple redirect without any history. However I won't be moving it and IMHO nor should you given that if 2K Games really did rename it, no one told their web admin as their website still appears to refer to BioShock exclusively from what I can tell. Better sourcing is needed for this claim, preferbly something directly from 2K Games. I note that the linked reference is a few days after 1st April so there's a possibility some sort of April Fools Day hoax got taken as genuiene by computerandvideogames.com. Edit, it looks like they were planning to call it Bioshock! not Bioshock. . At some stage, they must have realised this was a dumb idea (or perhaps it was an April Fools Joke that got out of hand like I suggested). Whatever the case, I see no evidence it's currently called Bioshock or Bioshock! so I suggest we stick with the current title Nil Einne 12:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't this article be at Bioshock anyway acording to Naming conventions. We are supposed to use normal capitilaztion even if the trademark doesn't.SkorponokX 13:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Remember that the overiding principle is what is most commonly recognised and readable. Manual of Style (trademarks) seems to agree that this should be considered with CamelCase (also check the article for lots of examples on wikipedia). From what I can tell BioShock is general usage (most gaming sites seem to use it) so IMHO it should stay. There is however active discussion in the naming conventions so your welcome to take up the CamelCase issue Nil Einne 16:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Source of the vandalism
I've found out the source of the recent anon vandalism spree. It looks like external sources unfortunately think it's fun to play around with wikipedia so I suggest we remove any nonsense and unsourced additions especially about demos without mercy Nil Einne 12:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright issues?
The plot section is either lifted directly from or the 1UP 'club' lifted it from Wikipedia. Either it neeeds to be rewritten, or the external link needs to be removed. Anyone know which?BURNyA 21:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like it is indeed a copyvio although not from 1up. I don't know if 1up copied from us or from Gamer Informer. A big chunk of this article is probably going to have to be removed sadly. I've informed the person who added it and also listed it in the copyvio section Nil Einne 16:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I added that bit a year and a half ago, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. I wasn't as aware back then of what counted as copyright violation. I was more spotting obvious cut-and-paste jobs. That, and I'm not the most creative of writers. Unfortunately, I haven't read the pages in recent months, as the game is nearing release, and I don't want to encounter spoilers (especially considering that more detail would have been added to the story).--Drat (Talk) 21:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Lacking development section
The article, once it starts to stablize out (or even before), really needs a development/history section - there's more than enough about how this game came about out on the web and the like for it. The Influences section can be a start to this, since that's part of the development.

Noting that, this article should be noted in the development section, where design Joe McDonagh claims that they were told by publishers it was just another shooter, including a nice quote. --Masem 18:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Why the player is on the plane... (and other problems)
As he holds the gift from his parents, as well as the picture, in front of the camera, it seems indicative that he is either returning from some sort of trip, or is visiting his parents. In fact... the entire summary does seem a bit convoluted. I suppose fixing it up now would be a complete waste, but I felt a notification would at least help in the future.
 * I was going to remove that comment as "not a forum", but you've indicated a good point: the entire Initial story is pure drivel, it needs to be copy edited, removed or just plain rewritten. Parjay ► Talk 14:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He's a criminal being sent home. Note to the chain-link tattoos. JAF1970 14:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this a fact? Sure, chains on the arms likely indicates he may have been a prisoner at one point, but all we can clean from the demo is that his name is Jack, he's got those tattoos, he's got a gift, and he's on a plane.  If the game reveals more, certainly add it, but I think saying he's an (ex) prisoner right now is too much speculation. --Masem 15:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I went WP:BOLD and reorganized most of the information on this page to fit the usual form of a good VG article. To that end, I split up the story between Setting (what Rapture is and its history), Plot (as far as the demo lets us know), and Characters/Enemies.  I did cut out some information (Andrew Ryan's background beyond that of an industrialist (as yet) makes no difference, for example).  Reads MUCH better, IMO. --Masem 17:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I was just about to come to your talk page to congratulate you on that. :) --Dreaded Walrus t c 17:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

On the right track, it looks quite a bit more like other game articles. Thanks. BURNyA 19:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Um did you guys happen to miss the section above which suggests the story section may be a copyvio? Someone really needs to verify if the original section is a copyvio from game informer because if it is the whole thing probably needs to be deleted and we need to start again Nil Einne 14:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I will point out that the only section I didn't word-smith around was the two remaining paragraphs in the now-"Setting" section (the history of Rapture). If its a recent issue of GI I may have it to check, but it sounds like this came from an issue at least a year ago.  Regardless, it would make sense that after someone plays the game or reads through the manual (or is this possibly in the free artbook they put out?) they rewrite it to keep the same information, just in their own words to avoid a possible vio. --Masem 15:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * March 2006 I'm afraid. I've asked Drat to check his original addition against the GI article so we can get an idea of where we stand Nil Einne 15:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I thought Masem fixed it. BURNyA 19:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Lock or don't post story stuff till after the 21st.
Apperently the street date is getting broken.

I don't want to read the story of game here, as that is the main attraction of the game.74.133.241.219 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * then avoid reading the article if you are that worried about spoilers? However i would assume that any plot spoilers would be edited out before the game really comes out because it's not verifiable. But wikipedia is the last place i would go if i was really worried about spoilers. harlock_jds 19:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request that no-one post the whole plot summary until Saturday the 25th because I live in England as such BioShock isn't released over here until the 24th. Tomcat Man, 21st August, 18:57 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Caption under game image
I had placed a bit of a note in the infobox picture caption that it shows a Big Daddy and Little Sister in the image, and someone removed this. Given that the box picture is a "free" image (that it is expected to be used for video games despite being fair use) and that we don't want to load up the page with tons of fair use images, I think the fact that this image clearly shows two of the most unique foes in the game should be captioned. --Masem 02:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Toys R Us broke release date. Available now.
Seems that Toys R Us is selling BioShock now, as opposed to the specified release date of Aug 21st, 2007 in the United States.

Some Toys 'R' Us stores selling BioShock early

CompIsMyRx 17:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I just went there and the managers are freaking out... heh. BURNyA 19:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

BioShock vs. Bioshock
What reference do we have that the game has been officially renamed Bioshock? I just checked the official site, and both the original splash page there, and all the region-specific sites, all use "BioShock". The same can be said of the official forums. So what is our source for using "Bioshock"? --Dreaded Walrus t c 23:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And I quote... " This article needs to be moved to Bioshock. 2K Games took out the camelcase 's' quite a while ago. Here is a source. If you're too lazy to go there, here's an excerpt:
 * No longer will we be able to refer to it with that much hallowed moniker, as BioShock now becomes ...(pause for drum roll) Bioshock (note that revolutionary small 's').

So yeah. An admin needs to move this over the redirect at Bioshock. Couchpotato99 18:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC) "

Need more? BURNyA 23:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've moved it. --Dreaded Walrus t c 23:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I see what you mean... On the official site and the 2K site it is listed as "BioShock". Dunno. I'll research it and see if I can find anything backing up Couchpotatoe99's source. I guess if we can dispute it put why here and we can rename it... again. BURNyA 23:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, yeah. Nil Einne brings up some good points in the section you took the excerpt from, too. I'll move it back, again, and change the text in the article, and we'll leave it at that until the official source changes it. Because with all the official pages still using BioShock, maybe they changed their mind? It's not too difficult to change a forum header, or the copyright text at the bottom of a page. --Dreaded Walrus t c 23:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll second that. If they haven't changed the official pages, it doesn't seem too official. BURNyA 23:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hold on, it should be Bioshock. It's a trademark, and referring to the section that Nil Einne referenced: "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner encourages special treatment, example:avoid: REALTOR®, instead, use: Realtor"  It should be moved to Bioshock. Parjay ► Talk  00:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you read carefully, as I already mentioned CamelCase is treated on a case by case basis and there are plenty of examples where we do use CamelCase. I still believe we should stick with BioShock since it's the most common name by far, and arguably more descriptive too given the System Shock connections. There is IMHO a big difference between preserving CamelCase, and preserving capatalisation like REALTOR especially of even Invader ZIM Nil Einne 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also for all those that missed it above, as far as I can tell the official name was never Bioshock. It may have been Bioshock! for a while but it seems to have stayed as BioShock for most of it's life Nil Einne 21:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Reception Sources
Metacritic has a score of 10/10 from OXM magazine listed on their site. It can be found here: http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/xbox360/bioshock?q=bioshock

Now can we please re-add the reception category to the main page now?

--I would wait until Metacritic has three sources. They don't put up a score until that many are out

Should both the PC Gamer UK and the Games Radar reviews be listed? The Games Radar review is an abridged version of the PC Gamer UK review with a different score. Mimir 01:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd wait untill Game Rankings has 20 since thats their default averaging amount. Plus we need to list what is considered a more prolific of reviewers IE poplar mags and sites like IGN, Gamespot, offical xbox etc. The problem is an edit war will probably start between fans and those who want a good article since fans will probably want to add ALL the reviews which is pointless, unorganised and kind of biased. Stabby Joe 12:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Reception?
This game has not yet released and claimed 'ratings' are already up. (extremely high scores of course...)

If these somehow are real ratings they need to be referenced... _____ If you google "bioshock oxm review", you will find at least 20 sources confirming that OXM did give Bioshock a rating of 10/10, although most of these sources are blogs/personal sites etc. Also, scans have been uploaded which confirm it (but cannot be deemed a source due to copyright reasons).

Reception Section
I would not add any details of the reviews to the reception section as of yet, only because we do not have a clear picture of what the entire gaming community is going to say. A good reception section will have pros and cons of a game, and trying to start it too early (as we are now) may taint the NPOV that we should be aiming for. A table of scores at this point is fine, but I'd hold off for at least a week after the game is out to really try to fill the reception body. --Masem 01:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems to already be to big and the worry is that fans will keep adding every score that comes out so I think we need to slow down until its release in most regions IE US, Europe. Otherwise the table will be to big and thus will HAVE TO be taken down or shorten which usually means another pointless edit war. Stabby Joe 12:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's way too big; we don't need to cite every review, and again, we need to also locate what are the common negative points in these reviews (the ones that grade X.X on a 10.0 scale). Since we're linking to MetaCritic and GameRankings, I would think that the only major reviews that should at least be cited in the table (IGN, 1up, Gamespot, OXM, PC Gamer...) Also, we need to have separate consideration for the 360 and the PC version as there are (as yet to be known) differences in the execution of the game on the different systems. --Masem 13:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with all of the above points. I tried to start restructuring the text ("this is something positive critics are saying about the game, this is what critics are saying about the gameplay, this is something critics are saying about atmosphere, about sound, about story, these are negative points brought up in reviews, etc.") Obviously, I gave up two paragraphs in. It's a pretty big mess the way it is now. If I agree with anything Masem stated, it's that not every review needs to be cited in the table or in the text. We shouldn't be focusing on what a variety of individuals think about the game in general; we should be focusing on how game critics generally feel about a variety of specific aspects of the game. And we do need to make mention of the differences between the 360/PC versions. Initially, I was going to make two separate sections in the table for the two platforms (a la PS2/360 for the Guitar Hero II article) but I didn't want the table becoming so big and unruly... Surely there's a way to make the section clear and comprehensive without having to incorporate every bit of information six times over. Pele Merengue 17:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well currently the game is unreleased so of course information shall be pretty unorganised since new info is constantly coming in. I'm givinh it 2 weeks after the PAL release for it then should be easier to make this page more presentable. Stabby Joe 01:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've taken a stab at cutting this down. Too many people were adding reviews without citations (even though they had enough to figure out where the review was at), and it seems the current method of presentation would just lead to less-experienced editors adding their review site of choice to have its say.  Additionally, it was way too biased.  I'm sure the game's great and all, but we're still an encyclopedia - the short answer at this time is that this game is getting near-perfect reviews across the board for reasons X Y and Z, with a few dings for A and B.  There's still all the various Games of the Months/Years and other awards that will likely show how good this game is, which we can add in as awards, but there's no point in us as editors trying to show our bias. --Masem 04:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've previously worked on reception sections, the most in game articles to be frank. Some examples of very popular favoured games which are still being improved by the way are the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Good) since it has a presentable review/awards table and Shadow of the Colossus (Featured) since it has a balance of pros and cons. I was even able to cut the Zelda: Twilight Princess reception section and stereotypically Zelda fans are very defensive of its success lol! Alos some listed sources like Game Radar aren't that prolific and I think only 2 xbox mags should be listed and US and UK mag versions should be listed together. Stabby Joe 13:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Steam Release date
I'm wondering whether to get the game from Steam or from a Warehouse... When's the Steam release date? Anyone know? We should put it up on the Article...


 * Steam release date should be the same as retail. Unicyclopedia 05:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like the Steam release date is the Retail date for North America. There's a countdown on the website. So those of us unlucky enough to live in the rest of the world could conceivably get it three days earlier than we're supposed to by getting it off Steam. Maelin (Talk | Contribs) 02:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually if you read carefully they clearly specify the 21st and 24th dichotomy. I'm also sure I saw Tuesday - US, Friday - Europe somewhere else. I'm pretty sure then in theory you won't get it on Tuesday from Steam if you're in Europe. As to how it's enforced, I don't know. Perhaps by credit card and user registration location. Maybe even by IP? Nil Einne 21:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Protector Types
I believe that the descriptions for "Rosie" and "Bouncer" type protectors is reversed. Bouncer would make sense for a close combat unit. The long range attacker is described as wielding a rivet-gun; "Rosie" is likely a reference to "Rosie the Riveter". Erooker 14:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What is "Bioshock"?
The plot mentions nothing of what Bioshock actually is. Can someone add it to the Setting section, please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The monkeyhate (talk • contribs).

Developer isn't correct
Would you say that Grand Theft Auto III was developed by DMA Design or Rockstar Austin? There is proof it was made by DMA design, because that's how things are. IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot, Gamestop, Team Xbox, Game Informer magazine, and infinite other reviewers agree it was developed by Irrasional Games before they got bought out and renamed. Look at any review site and it clearly don't say the current successor to Irrasional Games Renegadeviking


 * Heres the deal. "Irrasional" had its name changed from Irrational Games to 2K Boston/2K Australia. There is no Irrational Games studio anymore "because that's how things are". BURNyA 19:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As a game reviewers, I would definitely be inclined to say that this game was "developed by Irrational Games, which are now known as 2k Boston, etc. etc.", because as the reviewer, I would want to invoke the quality that Irrational Games branding brings to the table. However, as an encyclopedia, we need to report what is said on the package at the time the game is made available.  If the package lacks any mention of Irrational Games, then they should not be noted "officially" as the developer even though there is mention that IG was renamed to 2k Boston just before BS' release.--Masem 19:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The game isn't released yet. When the game is released, it will be under the new banner 2k, so it is correct to label it as such. Parjay ► Talk  19:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This Site have Irrational Games and if you find the case, the back has a Irrational Games so you have to put it on there, because i'm right. Renegadeviking

Vandalism? (that strange sun-like sign)
The symbol reverses letters, it makes the article unreadable and I don't know hy it is included but I am hesitant to remove it and unsure of whether or not that will solve the problem. Anyone know what it is? (I would post an example but it has the same effect on the discussion page. There's one in the "Plot" section, and other scattered throughough. Waqcku 09:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well they were removed by someone else. Guess I should have been bolder. Still, anyone know what they are? It's the symbol being searched for here. Waqcku 09:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)