Talk:Biocentrism/Archive 1

Explanation
I'm having trouble understanding this term. If you center your worldview around the "whole universe", then how are you really centering around anything at all? Isn't this essentially (to coin a term) acentric? Sarge Baldy 20:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Please read any of the references (for instance Ref 2 in "The American Scholar"). Mainstream science has forced a re-evaluation of the nature of the universe. According to biocentrism, a more accurate understanding of the real world will require that we consider it biologically-centered. It’s a simple concept: Life creates the universe, instead of the other way around. Understanding this more fully yields answers to several long-held puzzles. Biocentrism incorporates the living universe and allows the observer into the equation as the late Nobel laureate John Wheeler insists is necessary. In biocentrism, space and time are forms of animal sense perception, rather than external physical objects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Regener (talk • contribs) 17:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, see first reference (there's a whole book on it if you really want to understand :) Actioncat3 (talk) 20:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

On biocentrism or futurism
Let me try again:

NO DIRECTION HOME You know, stones tend to fall down, they usually do. Unless you launch them with a certain speed, which is called escape velocity, at least 7,9 kilometer per second. When Hitler launched his V-2's, his so-called Vergeltungswaffen, on London, he wasn't thinking of spacecraft and exploring the universe, but his scientists led by Werner von Braun were aware of the possibilities of the immense speed those rockets were capable of. Now let us look at history, the whole, seemingly complex and chaotic road that led to the firing of this weapon in the beginning of 1945 which could, launched out of The Hague, reach London in about five minutes. One may ask where to start this history, in the Renaissance, in Old Greece, or with the caveman, maybe with the extinction of the sauriers or even further back in time. I suggest we'll go as far as the first unity capable of duplicating itself and thus setting into motion a biolocigal mechanism, skip all the details and facts of evolution and also the details of human history, horrible or not, many, maybe too many books have been written on the matter of coincidence or a more or less logical or even determined route with just a few sidesteps, like the nose of Cleopatra. Let us just jump into the reality of today. For example, the actual state of space investigation and the posibble development of space colonies in the next, let us say, 30 years from now. It is clear that if people are to survive in such a condition outside the motherplanet for a lifetime, their environment will have to be a small copy of their natural environment and that is why experiments on this project were called, for example, Biosphere II. This may come true and be reality within 50 years, who knows? Let us suppose it does happen in that not all too far future. Does it ring any bell? Is my association with procreation pure madness or just what one politely should call a hypothesis and nothing more. (Since I am working on this idea for quite some time, before I had a letter published in Nature, correspondence, 7 january 1982, containing in other words the same, I am aware of the reactions. People seem to think that a certain plan is necessary but, sorry, reality does not work like that; it is just a biological mechanism if it works out or not.) It seems hard to understand, this possibility of a determined process leading to independent copies of the biosphere – very basic and in this this case on a planetary scale. This defenitely is not a metaphore but analogy and language cannot do without it. The main problem, I suppose, is the unwillingness to accept the idea of being an instrument of living nature rather than the steward. Maybe the right subject or category should be not “biocentrism”, but “futurology” I would like you to take in consideration that it maybe wise for a prisoner to know his whereabouts. And not being just a rolling stone. Roeland A. de Bie, july, 6, 2006, Amsterdam

86.82.24.167 21:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Ecocentrism?
Is there any difference between this and Ecocentrism? Perhaps they should be merged. --Salix alba (talk) 23:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Eco and Bio are usually interchangeable to a degree. However, I don't think eco-izing everything is the proper way to go about it and biocentrism is the term that should be used in place of 'ecocentrism'. Eco is about as abused as sustainability and green are at this point. (J03K64 (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC))


 * I would be opposed to a merge in light of the different definitions biocentrism has. --Loremaster (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

If you check "Bicoentrism" on Google, you'll see that most of the literature on this has absolutely nothing to do with ecocentrism. Actioncat3 (talk) 20:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Strange letter
An anonymous user appended the following text to the article, with the edit summary on "biocentrism", a discussion started on the Erasmus University Rotterdam in 1980.

Van: "roel de bie"  Aan:  Onderwerp: Biocentrism Datum: zondag 2 april 2006 2:40

Dear Sir,

" Reffering to the word 'biocentrism", I may remark that the word was used in a letter to Nature, january 7, 1982. (Following, if you wish, hereafter). As far as I know the word did not exist at that time, but that is of no importance, so the more the contents. The crucial statement is: mankind and all its cultural products are an integral part of the overall living system, the biosphere. So mankind is in no way the caretaker or even gardener of this planet but a functional part of it. My statement is: every living planet, every biosphere will eventually develop a species able to create a biosphere II, a child, just as the very beginning of life did, but on a totally different scale. We call it the development of spacecraft and the possibility of self-supporting spacecolonies. It may also be an inevitable and necessary process and a logical outcome of the beginning of all life: reproduction, finally on a planetary scale. Maybe hard to accept but at least worth a discussion."

© Nature Publishing Group 1982

For some reason I do not understand, I am not able te copy this article, this letter in correspondence, Nature, january 7, 1982. But it does exist. Probably has to do with copyright, not my bussiness.

I have no idea what the context of the letter is, but it clearly didn't belong in the article, so I moved it here. Wmahan. 02:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is bordering on being incorrect
Biocentrism is primarily used in the context of ethical theory, not ontology as the term "existence" implies. Unless someone can make a strong argument for leaving it as existence, I think it should be changed to "moral concern."


 * I agree. Feel free to make that change. --Loremaster 20:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, the section regarding the transgender flavor of the word should be transported to a different page, they have no bearing on one another.


 * I disagree. I think we should simply mention that biocentrism has several meanings. --Loremaster 20:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes ( ~ ). --Loremaster 20:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This topic is completly wrong. According to Tyler - Millers book In Living in the environment(2000)biocentrism is explained as being Atomistic (individual centred), where the primary focus is on the individual species or organism. It places emphasis on human management and stewardship - which is human centred - or Anthropocentric.

What the author of this post is refering to is a more holistic approach, or Earth Centred. WHich means that the definition provided is more suited to defining Ecocentric worldviews. 14:49 EST 19 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.193.221.3 (talk) 04:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Trans
Well, trans women can't have kids and still have XY chromosomes, so they really aren't quite "full women". 75.118.170.35 (talk) 20:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Neologism template
I removed the neologism template as the term has been around since 1885-90. —Morning star (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Etymology and separating science from moral philosophy
The first section should be a historical etymology of which uses came first and how they developed. Also biocentrism as a scientific view should be separated from the two other moral philosophy view points in the longer descriptions and probably have its own larger page - when someone is ready to write it. Will put on my long list of things that I think should be done! CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Biocentrism attribution to Lanza.
Nope. He just made it notable. I won't war over this, but this just isn't new. It is just new that anyone took it seriously enough to lampoon it in the press.- sinneed (talk) 02:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

A lot of these sources are not wp:RS or promotional... Lanza's own site, for example. These probably need to be ELs instead of inline citations. A lot of it should point either to the article or to the book or to coverage of those in the wp:RS instead. I'll chew through them as I find time and interest. :) Or someone else might. :)- sinneed (talk) 03:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am curious about your statement that Lanza did not coin his meaning of biocentrism in his 2007 article: That is: “The scientific theory positing that life creates the universe rather than being part of the universe.” (There are earlier definitions of “biocentric” --  not “biocentrism”  --  in dictionaries: (1) OED has “Centering in life; regarding or treating life as a central fact”; (2) Merriam-Webster: “Considering all forms of life as having intrinsic value”, (3) Encyclopedia Britannica: “claim[ing] that nature has an intrinsic moral worth that does not depend on its usefulness to human beings”… but these are obviously different senses.) Again, Lanza’s IDEA that “life (or human life) creates the universe rather than being part of the universe” may itself be a very old idea, but it has not before been associated with the word “biocentrism”. Lanza should get credit in the article. 96.231.137.242 (talk) 12:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * wp:NOT a dictionary. We are not talking about who coined the term.  We are talking about the scientific theory.- sinneed (talk) 12:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to write a section on the etymology of the term, then maybe, but that is not the THEORY. That is the use of the word.- sinneed (talk) 12:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added a sentence crediting him with the usage of the term, with a CN flag. Better?- sinneed (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, dubious-flagging the cosmological...that one just isn't getting it for me. :)- sinneed (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Irritable, aren't we? Dogwood123 (talk) 12:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Please wp:AGF and please see wp:talk: focus on the content, not the editors.- sinneed (talk) 14:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters much, but it's clear that no one ever used the term "Biocentrism" before to describe an all-encompassing theory that lays out how animal life is the basis of space and time, qunatum phenomenon, and the structure of the universe itself. Staff3 (talk) 04:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Cosmological?
No. It has as much to do with a ball-bearing rolling around the hub of a wheel on my old clunker. Other alternatives you might find acceptable, please?- sinneed (talk) 12:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I just noticed I did not mention why I dropped "biocentrism": wp:MOS - no need to repeat the title.  If we DO need to repeat it, it won't need the ""... or more exactly, please explain why we would need them.- sinneed (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Reception section removed
Please explain what the objections to this germane, sourced, content that is focused on the science.

I will not immediately revert the removal, but I will restore this eventually unless there is a reason for the removal. I look forward to "hearing" any concerns. Especially, what changes would make the reception of the theory acceptable? I understand the objection at the article about the author... that is the article about him, and the reception was of his book/essay/proposed theory, not of him. This is the article about the theory. - sinneed (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I propose to re-add the following subsection next week:

Reception #1
Reception of Lanza's article and book on "biocentrism" has been mixed. Nobel laureate (Physiology or Medicine) E. Donnall Thomas stated that "Any short statement does not do justice to such a scholarly work. The work is a scholarly consideration of science and philosophy that brings biology into the central role in unifying the whole." Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss believes that “It may represent interesting philosophy, but it doesn't look, at first glance, as if it will change anything about science. In an opinion piece for USA Today, David Lindley, a Cambridge University astrophysicist, argues that Lanza's essay contains no theory, calling it "...vague, inarticulate metaphor..." and stating "...I certainly don't see how thinking his way would lead you into any new sort of scientific or philosophical insight. That's all very nice, I would say to Lanza, but now what?" Daniel C. Dennett, a Tufts University philosopher, says he does not think the concept meets the standard of a philosophical theory either. "It looks like an opposite of a theory, because he doesn't explain how it [consciousness] happens at all," Dennett says. "He's stopping where the fun begins."

Any concerns? All I have seen so far is that at least one anon editor does not wp:LIKE the content.- sinneed (talk) 04:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It needs balance
It’s not neutral adding three quotes in a row that make biocentrism look nutty. There are LOTS of other top scholars and scientists in the world who think very highly of biocentrism. Here are just a few (I recommend the first four quotes be added for balance):

"Having interviewed some of the most brilliant minds in the scientific world, I found Dr. Robert Lanza's insights into the nature of consciousness original and exciting. His theory of biocentrism is consistent with the most ancient wisdom traditions of the world which says that consciousness conceives, governs, and becomes a physical world. It is the ground of our Being in which both subjective and objective reality come into existence." - Deepak Chopra, one of the top icons of the century (2)

"It is genuinely an exciting piece of work.... The idea that consciousness creates reality has quantum support and also coheres with some of the things biology and neuroscience are telling us about the structures of our being. Just as we now know that the sun doesn't really move but we do (we are the active agents), so [it is] suggesting that we are the entities that give meaning to the particular configuration of all possible outcomes we call reality." - Ronald Green, renowned scholar, Eunice & Julian Cohen Professor, and Director of - Dartmouth College's Ethics Institute (1, 3)

"This new theory is certain to revolutionize our concepts of the laws of nature for centuries to come." - Anthony Atala, internationally recognized scientist, W.H. Boyce Professor, and Chair and Director at Wake Forest University. (1,3)

“Reading Robert Lanza’s work is a wake-up call....” - David Thompson, astrophysicist, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (3)

“I like to see books published that challenge my own ideas and thoughts in ways that make me think, but not ones that simply throw dogma at me. The essay is definitely of the former kind.” - -R. Stephen Berry, James Franck Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus, Department of Chemistry, University of Chicago (3)

“It’s a masterpiece-truly…magnificent. Lanza is to be congratulated for a fresh and highly erudite look at the question of how perception and consciousness shape reality and common experience....his arguments [are] both convincing and challenging.” - Michael Lysaght, Professor of Medical Science and Engineering at Brown University and Director of Brown’s Center for Biomedical Engineering (3)

“Like A Brief History of Time, it is indeed stimulating and brings biology into the whole…. Most importantly, it makes you think.” - E. Donnall Thomas, 1990 Nobel Prize (3) “What Lanza says in this book is not new. Then why does Robert have to say it at all? It is because we, the physicists, do NOT say it––or if we do say it, we only whisper it, and in private––furiously blushing as we mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no! – Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Johns Hopkins University (4)

There lots of possible references, but these 5 cover all the above quotes: 1) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/1933771690/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books 2) http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/health-care/dr-robert-lanza-featured-guest-deepak-chopras-sirius-xm-stars-radio/ 3) http://www.moxiestudio.com/designsamples/BenBellaBooks_Spring2009_Catalog_Final.pdf 4) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/biocentrism.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.76.252.120 (talk) 03:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Above list reformated for readability by - sinneed (talk) 03:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Great, so if I re-add the content, and if you can beat the edit-warriors to it, you can add wp:BALANCE if you are interested.- sinneed (talk) 03:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well. Someone decided to wp:be bold and add a good bit of content without discussing. I would not have recommended that, at this point.  I "softened" the language a bit, focusing the addition on the theory rather than the theorist and trying to avoid leading the readers.- sinneed (talk) 18:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks good now. Personally, I would consider an endorsement by the great Deepak Chopra as a negative, rather than a positive, but whatever.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 20:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

No, as agreed, this was not supposed to go up yet. We are still working on this  Staff3 (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, I stated my intention if no one objected. Very different.- sinneed (talk) 02:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

If a consensus can be reached, I agree with Sinneed, who above said "I propose to re-add the following subsection next week" Staff3 (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless someone objects, there is a consensus of 1.- sinneed (talk) 02:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Grrr. Please state your proposed alternative, or, if you simply can't, then please state your objections.  Clearly you object, as you removed the content.  If you don't have an objection, then you appear to simply be wp:edit warring.  Do you just not wp:LIKE the addition?- sinneed (talk) 02:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To explain further, you just threw away my work, and the work of the anon. You have not objected to it, you just ... Threw... It... Away.  Essentially you declared it to be vandalism.  Please revert your edit.- sinneed (talk) 02:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

No, no - what you wrote is a good start. I was working on it as well, but its very late at night now. Can you give us some of us others until tomorrow before posting? Staff3 (talk) 03:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You can have all the time you want, always. And when you are ready to take part, do.  But Do Not again revert and say something like "see talk" when you aren't talking.  That is wp:edit warring... revert...revert...revert...revert.

Sinneed - please allow everyone to reach a consensus? I agree with Staff3 - you folks are in a rush that will lead to another edit war. Please let everyone weigh in first before posting it. I propose the following modification (let me now what you think). Actioncat3 (talk) 03:30, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actioncat, please wp:AGF. Also, thank you for joining the discussion, albeit by assuming wp:bad faith and with discord.  "you folks" - don't do that again.  "rush" - no... don't do that again.  "edit war" - no, don't do that again, and there will be no edit war.  "weigh in" - Yes, thus a week.  Plenty of time for everyone to weigh in.- sinneed (talk) 06:35, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Reception #2
Biocentrism has triggered debate by scientists and thought-leaders.

Nobel laureate (Physiology or Medicine) E. Donnall Thomas stated that "Any short statement does not do justice to such a scholarly work. The work is a scholarly consideration of science and philosophy that brings biology into the central role in unifying the whole." Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss stated “It may represent interesting philosophy, but it doesn't look, at first glance, as if it will change anything about science. However, Wake Forest University scientist Anthony Atala disagrees, stating "This new theory is certain to revolutionize our concepts of the laws of nature for centuries to come." “But in a email message posted online, USA Today astrophysicist journalist David Lindley responded to Lanza’s essay, calling it a "...vague, inarticulate metaphor..." and stating "...I certainly don't see how thinking his way would lead you into any new sort of scientific or philosophical insight. That's all very nice, I would say to Lanza, but now what?"[29]  David Thompson, an astrophysicist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center thinks the “work is a wake-up call.”  Daniel C. Dennett, a Tufts University philosopher, says he does not think the concept meets the standard of a philosophical theory either. "It looks like an opposite of a theory, because he doesn't explain how it [consciousness] happens at all," Dennett says. "He's stopping where the fun begins."[30]  Noted author and Indian scholar Deepak Chopra stated “Lanza's insights into the nature of consciousness [are] original and exciting” and that “his theory of biocentrism is consistent with the most ancient wisdom traditions of the world which says that consciousness conceives, governs, and becomes a physical world. It is the ground of our Being in which both subjective and objective reality come into existence."

Sinneed, one more thing. For those who are counting, I would not consider Richard Henry’s quote one for the positive aisle– he says “What Lanza says in this book is not new.” On the other hand, he doesn’t dismiss the idea. It’s a good quote, but it definitely cuts both ways. Thus, if you want to exactly balance things, you could replace the Thompson quote with the Henry quote. Thus, the score would be 3 for and 3 against (and one split) Not that anyone is counting lol Actioncat3 (talk) 04:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * positive and negative ... Some are going to see some of these as positive and others will see them as negative.- sinneed (talk) 04:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "debate" - What is your objection to the proposed wording? The reception to the theory has been mixed.  Debate?  I haven't seen debate.  I have seen mostly idle chatter.
 * "thought-leaders" - I would cut if added. Best to avoid leading the readers: they can decide if someone is a thought-leader for them or not.  "scientists" - some yes, some no.
 * "However, Wake Forest... disagrees" - if placed I would drop "however" and "disagrees", let the reader decide if the two conflict.
 * I remain dubious of leading with the Nobel guy. wp:undue- sinneed (talk) 05:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Erk. I missed the CN bits.  I can't support adding anything here that does not have a wp:RS... too contentious.  I don't expect to kill it just because it is unsourced unless it looks like it might hurt wp:BLP, but I oppose adding it.- sinneed (talk) 05:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Everything you say is reasonable. Let me give it another whirl. Actioncat3 (talk) 14:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's see if this works. Hopefully, it addresses the concerns your raised. Actioncat3 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Reception #3
Lanza's article and book on "biocentrism" has received a mixed reception.

David Thompson, an astrophysicist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center thinks the “work is a wake-up call.” Nobel laureate (Physiology or Medicine) E. Donnall Thomas stated that "Any short statement does not do justice to such a scholarly work. The work is a scholarly consideration of science and philosophy that brings biology into the central role in unifying the whole." Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss stated “It may represent interesting philosophy, but it doesn't look, at first glance, as if it will change anything about science. Wake Forest University scientist Anthony Atala stated "This new theory is certain to revolutionize our concepts of the laws of nature for centuries to come." But in a email message posted online, USA Today astrophysicist journalist David Linley responded to Lanza’s essay, calling it a "...vague, inarticulate metaphor..." and stating "...I certainly don't see how thinking his way would lead you into any new sort of scientific or philosophical insight. That's all very nice, I would say to Lanza, but now what?"[29]  Daniel Dennett, a Tufts University philosopher, says he does not think the concept meets the standard of a philosophical theory. "It looks like an opposite of a theory, because he doesn't explain how it [consciousness] happens at all. He's stopping where the fun begins."[30]  Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University, points out that Lanza's theory is consistent with quantum mechanics, “What Lanza says in this book is not new. Then why does Robert have to say it at all? It is because we, the physicists, do NOT say it––or if we do say it, we only whisper it, and in private––furiously blushing as we mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no!” Other scholars have also weighed in, including noted author Deepak Chopra. Chopra stated “Lanza's insights into the nature of consciousness [are] original and exciting” and that “his theory of biocentrism is consistent with the most ancient wisdom traditions of the world which says that consciousness conceives, governs, and becomes a physical world. It is the ground of our Being in which both subjective and objective reality come into existence."

This is better. Just this minor modification - I'll put aside my other objections to avoid further disagreement. Staff3 (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to encourage everyone to explain their thoughts. Consider please:  NO ONE has articulated any objection except "needs balance"... but if that were the only problem, then surely rather than wp:edit warring, the various individuals would have simply ... added wp:BALANCE.- sinneed (talk) 21:08, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the current version is acceptable. (3 for, 3 against.) But as I've said before, I don't think each & every argument has to be "balanced". Would you say a discussion of "Holocaust denial" should be balanced? Say, 3 for, 3 against?? An extreme example, I grant... This case (Lanza's "biocentrism") is a situation in which, to be blunt, virtually the entire scientific world has ignored it. No reputable physicist (except the incendiary Henry, if he is reputable) agrees with it... This kind of pseudoscience often gains credibility by the fact that major thinkers are silent about it. But they ignore it because it is ignorable & unimportant. Will Steven Hawking weigh in on Lanza's ideas? No, because he has better things to so then debunk marginal material of this kind. But Lanza obviously has his fans on Wikipedia. So be it. But at least present those few reputable thinkers who have bothered to publish opinions (Krauss, Dennett, etc). And by all means include Deepak! His endorsement puts Lanza's ideas in the most appropriate context of all. It is classic "New Age" buffoonery.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The current version is blank... no content. Please see wp:talk and please PLEASE avoid things like most of your post "It is classic "New Age" buffoonery" - that has no place here on the talk page.  Pleas focus on the content of the article, not the subject of the article.- sinneed (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I said exactly what I meant: If Lanza's "biocentrism" is buffonery, one should be able to say so. And I will say so without apology.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 03:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And on some other website, you are certainly welcome to say it. But it fails wp:talk.  It does not belong here.- sinneed (talk) 03:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Sinneed (or someone else from Wiki), please help. What am I supposed to do - someone added their own "reception section" to the official page. Can it be deleted, or should the newest one everyone is working on added instead? Staff3 (talk) 14:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no one "from Wiki". We are all just users of the web site.  Even admins are selected by and for "we, the editors"... Wikimedia staff with the exception of the lawyers stay out (well Jimbo weighs in but I don't think this one is going to lure him in).  What is wrong with the version in the article?  No one has objected to it.  Why does (did) it need to go?  Why not (insert strong language here as you wish) explain what you object to, and then let the adding editor reply?- sinneed (talk) 14:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

In the meantime will add this version, as everyone so far has said it is accpetable. Again, not sure how this is supposed to be handled. Staff3 (talk) 14:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, no. It was not added.  A shadow of it, with damaged format and no sources, was added. - sinneed (talk) 14:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I continue to oppose adding the unsourced content. I also added a  for the "Other scholars have also weighed in" bit.  We already have an intro.  It seems to lend wp:undue weight to the author.- sinneed (talk) 14:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you - went ahead and deleted it.Staff3 (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Split proposal
This article appears to be about two completely different concepts: "Biocentrism" as a rather vague ecological or environmental ethos honoring life; and "biocentrism" as a recently named philosophy or theory that "life" & its awareness of itself "creates the universe". Valerius Tygart (talk) 12:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Propose split with Biocentrism as the disamb page. Discuss. Valerius Tygart (talk) 12:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable to me. - sinneed (talk) 12:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My only concern is very minor: Both will be small articles, and the current structure, though unattractive, does put all the (small amount of) information in one place.  Is there a need to split it out, and make those (I suspect rare) people searching for it drill through the disambiguation page to find it?- sinneed (talk) 13:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason I proposed the split is that the two "biocentrisms" seem to be *completely* unrelated. Just accidentally named the same. That seems to make the split justifiable. Valerius Tygart (talk) 00:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect the Lanza biocentrism article will be longer than you think. I notice there is an "interesting" recent history on Wikipedia.... Valerius Tygart (talk) 00:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Splitting the article does bring up the issue of what to call the disambiguated articles.  Ideas?- sinneed (talk) 00:30, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How about Biocentrism (Lanza) and Biocentrism (ethics)? 96.231.137.242 (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I will strongly oppose tying Biocentrism to Lanza. He has his own article.- sinneed (talk) 00:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But Lanza invented "biocentrism" in the sense that we are discussing. He already IS tied to it.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 02:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No wp:RS I have seen says that. He may or may not have even coined the term for this usage.  He most certainly did not come up with the idea.  If you find an RS that says he did "invent" biocentrism, then that, of course, changes things.  It seems to me that it is older than he is.  I know it is not new.  The wp:burden we be on the one trying to give him that credit.- sinneed (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

No one used the word "biocentrism" in the Lanza sense before Lanza did in 2007. The burden of proof is on anyone who would say that someone used it in that way before he did. (And, if true, it should not be hard to prove...) 96.231.137.242 (talk) 03:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct, the wp:burden is on the editor adding the content. If one wants to say, in the article, "Lanza invented biocentrism" that would need a source, if the content is challenged (it would be).  If one wants to say "Lanza coined the term biocentrism in 2007", then one will need a source, if the content is challenged (it would be).- sinneed (talk) 03:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Conversely, if one adds to the article "Lanza neither coined the term biocentrism, nor produced anything new in his theory of biocentrism." that would also need a source if challenged, as it would be.- sinneed (talk) 03:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The source is the 2007 article in which Lanza introduces the term in the new sense. (You have read the article, haven't you??) 96.231.137.242 (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That turns out not to be the case, as I read the article. The article talks about a new theory, not the etymology of the word. Very different. I have requested a quote. Talk:Biocentrism- sinneed (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

May I propose "Biocentrism (cosmology)" and "Biocentrism (ethics)" to break the logjam?? Valerius Tygart (talk) 15:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I would be careful using "(cosmology)", since much -if not most- of of biocentrism focuses on the microworld of quantum phenomena. Regener (talk) 15:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

"Science" is best, as it proposes a new 'all-encompacing' foundation for science, that includes quantum mechanics, cosmology, physiology, neurobiology, animal sense perception etc...Regener (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Since Sinneed has now yielded on the issue of whether Lanza "coined" the word, perhaps we could reconsider Biocentrism (Lanza). He certainly claims to have originated the concept! (Also, his detractors would [& do] dispute that it is "science"...) 96.231.137.242 (talk) 21:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Since there seems to be consensus that “biocentrism” in the Lanza sense and “biocentrism” in the politico-ecological sense are completely unrelated concepts, and since there is not yet agreement on what to call an article exclusively devoted to the term in the Lanza sense, I have made bold to simply break out the ethical (politico-ecological) concept into its own article & leave Lanza’s biocentrism behind under “Biocentrism”, while cross-reference tagging the two at the beginning of each article. This is done under the presumption that Lanza’s Biocentrism will be getting the great majority of hits from searchers. I hope this meets with the approval of other editors. Dogwood123 (talk) 14:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Introducing Lanza
Is "Biologist" the best way to sum up what he is/does professionally in this context? His article uses "American scientist"? I don't object to "Biologist", but I am a bit dubious. I did add M.D. - sinneed (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What's the objection to "physician", exactly??? He is an MD....Valerius Tygart (talk) 00:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not strictly correct - although an MD, he was never a practicing physician, but instead (after getting a degree in biology at UPenn) pursued the biological sciences his entire career. Staff3 (talk) 03:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I gotcha! He's the rare case who got into & went thru med school, but bailed before internship & his medical license. Thus, paradoxically, he's an MD, but not a "doctor" or physician.... Another example was Michael Crichton. I agree, no "physician". Valerius Tygart (talk) 20:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there any objection to the wording at his article "American scientist" rather than "Biologist"? As before, I don't object, but... Biologist?  I see someone studying snakes in jars and dissecting frogs when I think "biologist".  Probably just me, though.- sinneed (talk) 06:38, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, "American scientist" would be correct. Actioncat3 (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

This does seem to be the best description. Do I have permission to change "Biologist" to "American Scientist" on the page? Staff3 (talk) 13:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * None of us is an admin, so can't give or deny permission. The most we can do is support or object, with or without reverting and with or without grumpiness. :)
 * I have not seen any objection, so it seems a reasonable edit, in my opinion, and I support it. The editor who changed it isn't talking that I can see.  So that editor must not care much.- sinneed (talk) 14:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Damaged "Reception" section added
It appears to be a paste of a text copy. No sources. Please repair it.- sinneed (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems better now.- sinneed (talk) 14:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Now fixed - source was this page. Didn't realize references wouldn't transfer Staff3 (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Challenged content
I have challenged the bit about Lanza coining the term. We seem to be missing one another, as you restated my objection. To be clearer than I can in an edit summary: Very different. The article says the 1st, and not the 2nd. It may indeed prove challenging to find the etymology of this (possible) neologism in a wp:RS, in which case it will need to stay out of WP.- sinneed (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Source: Here is a new theory of Biocentrism.
 * WP article: Lanza created this use of the word Biocentrism with this new theory.
 * The book blurb itself says "Lanza has teamed with Bob Berman...to produce Biocentrism, a revolutionary new view of the universe."... Isn't that enough. I think both Lanza's fans AND his detractors would agree that he coined the term in this usage... Only you, Sinneed, seem to have a problem with it. Lanza's concept may be cockeyed, but com'on! Give him credit for naming his New Age silliness... (And, no, the fact that his philosophy is "anticipating Kant two hundred years after the fact" as one reviewer noted, doesn't apply to this particular point....) 96.231.137.242 (talk) 22:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you or I came up with a new Theory of Relativity, it would be a new Theory of Relativity.  Wikipedia firmly does not care what we know.  It cares what the wp:RS say.  That one says he has a new theory he calls "Biocentrism".  Nothing to do with the etymology of the word.  Someone with access to the online OED might see what it says.  That, for example, would be a generally reliable source.  I don't have the access.  Online OED meets wp:V nevertheless.- sinneed (talk) 22:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't "The American Scholar" a reliable resource? It says its 'a new theory of the universe' 93.187.17.200 (talk) 22:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear you echoing my words back to me, but seeming to state that we are disagreeing. Yes, he came up with a new theory.
 * No wp:RS says he coined the term for use in reference to a scientific theory. If one does say so, someone will surely be able to provide a quote.- sinneed (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this the quote that you’re looking for? In the 2007 Scholar article, it says “This new view of the world – biocentrism – revolves around the way a subjective experience, which we call consciousness, relates to a physical process.” This is clearly coining the term for use in reference to a new scientific theory. Any search of the literature will confirm this is the first time this term was used in this context.Staff3 (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be wp:synthesis. And no search will help prove a negative.- sinneed (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think someone who is interested in the history of words will lay an OED ref on us eventually. There's no rush, as far as I know.  This is one of those points (I should think) that is of academic interest only.  I just wish OED online wasn't so very expensive.  Any interested university students or profs here?  I can't imagine any university that doesn't have an OED subscription now days.- sinneed (talk) 23:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I already laid an OED ref on you a few days ago (above). Never mind the Online OED, I have the paper one right here (Second edition, 1991). First, there is no entry for "biocentrism" as such. Second, the entry for "biocentric" is “Centering in life; regarding or treating life as a central fact”. There are quotes from 1889, 1899, 1904, 1913 & 1952 for this sense of the word. The form "biocentrism" does not appear in this entry at all. It is painfully clear that Lanza's usage of "biocentrism" -- meaning that the *entire universe* (space-time, matter, energy) only exists as a phenomenon secondary to life -- is his own. He totally deserves the credit (or blame) for using the word in this way.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 10:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Here’s a 3/14/2007 quote in USAToday by science editor Dan Verganio saying he coined the word for his theory [] “Lanza, who is best known as one of the scientists behind a 2001 attempt to clone human embryonic stem cells, calls this theory "biocentrism" and in the article he points to the well-known weirdness of quantum mechanics, the basic rules of particle physics, to make his case.”Staff3 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "saying he coined the word for his theory" - Well. We are it appears reading very different things when we see those words. I read about a theory, you read about a word.  The content is in the article.- sinneed (talk) 18:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Dropped the flag. Folks with what appear to be relatively strongly opposing views disagree on the need for the flag.  I yield. - sinneed (talk) 18:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Well done. Not every damn thing requires a source.... 96.231.137.242 (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * wp:talk please. I just noticed that the reason I felt comfortable removing the flag was then immediately removed from the article.  I have restored the caveat and the flag.- sinneed (talk) 20:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To be clear: I propose to drop the CN flag on the 1st use of "biocentrism" to mean a biocentric theory of the universe as long as it is simply clearly stated that it is a possibility, rather than an established fact. I continue to object to its inclusion, as it is not sourced and I believe it is misleading... dubious unsourced content may be removed at any time.- sinneed (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

While here, this seems to be the only actively contested issue left. One possible solution: Sinneed, you were gracious enough to drop the flag at one point. If 96.231.137.242 agrees to the original wording [“American scientist Robert Lanza may have coined the use the term biocentrism as a scientific theory in 2007"), including adding back the critical “may have coined,” would you agree to remove the flag. Will that work for everyone here?  Actioncat3 (talk) 13:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That is my proposal, yes.- sinneed (talk) 18:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - hopefully that resolves it Actioncat3 (talk) 13:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Chopra
Please keep Chopra's intro very short to avoid giving wp:undue weight (or with diminutive wording doing the opposite). Please stop reverting one another and talk. Please give wp:RS for those qualifications. if there is an objection, please flag it instead of reverting it. I have put in a. These are only requests... I am just an ordinary editor like everyone else here.- sinneed (talk) 20:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you - it should be very short. I suggest just "Noted author and physician" or just "Noted author." No need to skew it with any qualifiers at all (if that's a word)Actioncat3 (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Either of these works for me. WikiWatch31 (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is "New Age" pejorative? And is Chopra indeed a "New Age" figure? He is in the "New Age Movement" infobox on his own article & is in the NA article itself. In fact, Chopra is well known as a New Age physician and guru. Everyone knows it. I have restored to my original. 96.231.137.242 (talk) 12:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There are many online references to Chopra as a "New Age physician". I have referenced one in the article. (BTW, how silly that I have to reference this.... )96.231.137.242 (talk) 13:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Will you knock of the agenda – you ignored the flag saying not to revert. There are hundred’s of references saying he’s an "Indian physician” - but it is entirely unnecessary as the opening line of the “Deepak Chopra” Wikipedia link associated with his name says he is an “Indian physician and author” Actioncat3 (talk) 14:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed, 2 sets of edits were made continuing to revert, and not providing a source. wp:CIRCULAR... WP is not a source.- sinneed (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, 96.231.137.242 it is not silly you have to reference this, and you don't "have to". You are quite welcome to leave the edit unchanged and unsourced, if you are dropp8ing your objection to the content.  You are wp:edit warring yet again, though you are talking, you are doing so in in wp:POINT fashion.- sinneed (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested reference has now been added now - I had tried several times previously without any luck. Wiki blocked it for some reason, so I added a different reference. Sorry about that. Actioncat3 (talk) 19:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW I could add references citing Chopra as an "Indian scholar" or "Indian philosopher" etc, but have not because that would bias the reader. Likewise, I hope others will leave this generic --can't we all agree that he's an author and physician - no need for either side to add "new age" or "scholar" or "philosopher" or "genius" or even as TIME magazine called him an "American Icon" :) Actioncat3 (talk) 19:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I can safely say that you will find little support for considering piczo.com a wp:RS.- sinneed (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly better luck with the direct link to http://www.moviezen.com/celebrity/deepak-chopra/biography. Or it may be that it stands as it is.- sinneed (talk) 19:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Replaced with a CNN reference - does that do it? There are hundreds, just not sure which Wiki prefers.Actioncat3 (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

If you prefer, here's one from the United Nations calling him an "Indian physician and writer" http://www.un.org/special-rep/ohrlls/ohrlls/Statements/hr%20message%2001%20Dec%2004_world-peace_puerto%20rico-details.pdf?eventID=421&action=eventDetailsActioncat3 (talk) 19:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't care if he is listed as bleu-cheese-only vegetarian,(though that might be offensive and need a couple of sources wp:BLP) as long as the squabble stops.- sinneed (talk) 20:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, if I were trying to get "Indian physician and writer Deepak Chopra" to stick, I would also cite the UN document with a "quote=Indian physician and writer Deepak Chopra" parameter. But that is just my own approach, no idea if it is a good one.- sinneed (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thank you for your advice.Actioncat3 (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please look the changes I have made over, and see if they are acceptable to you. Easily reverted if not and I have no objection to your doing so, I just wasn't being clear here, I think.  I find the "quote=" parameter very useful, it lets other editors see exactly what part of the source one thinks supports one's words.- sinneed (talk) 18:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Lindley
WikiWatch31 has claimed that Dr Lindley is a "full time reporter for USA Today", rather than a guest editorialist once. He is not a full time reporter for USA Today. WikiWatch31 says: "Lindley's position is in the opening line of the reference that is cited. It says 'astrophysicist and science writer'". He is indeed an astrophysicist and science writer.. There is no evidence that he is on the staff of USA Today even though he wrote an op-ed piece for them. 96.231.137.242 (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please focus on the content. What change is proposed?  What content needs to be changed?- sinneed (talk) 16:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The article and reference are VERY clear. Here is the opening line to the piece "Astrophysicist and science writer David Lindley's full response to Robert Lanza's article. This is an e-mail message that was sent exclusively to USA Today's Dan Vergano and is posted here with Mr. Lindley's permission: " Actioncat3 (talk) 21:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This last post in in reference to "140.139.35.250" - who just changed the article to read that it was an "Op-Ed" piece. This is inccorect - "Op-Ed" pieces in USA Today (and other major national papers) are highly prized slots, and this is not one of them. Actioncat3 (talk) 21:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Reverting - a request
I want to encourage avoiding reverting immediately in the article. This is JUST MY PERSONAL request, I hope it will be considered by each editor.

Instead, unless the edit is simply unacceptable... breaks wp:BLP or violating some WP rule, please consider leaving the edit in place, challenging it on the talk page, and marking it with an article flag... perhaps. Then, if the editor does not have a good argument, wp:consensus will still prevail against the edit. Simply reverting immediately can quickly lead to an wp:edit war, and make reaching a consensus difficult.

If the article becomes a battleground, I have great confidence that it will be locked, and offending editors may be blocked.- sinneed (talk) 21:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I have "dubious" tagged the reference to Lindley's essay being sent by email (who cares) to USA Today which published it as an op-ed piece & also the allegation that Lindley (an astrophysicist & book author) is a USAToday writer. He is not. Unless someone can cite a reliable source that Lindley is a USAToday staff writer, I will soon change it back. On the "email" referenece, there is no justification for that. It has no place unless you want to trivalize his essay & protect Lanza's reputation (which, of course, you do ;-)...) 140.139.35.250 (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wp:AGF - Focus on the content not the editors. - This was directed at all who were participating in the revert-revert-revert nonsense.- sinneed (talk) 17:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * More revert-revert-revert nonsense. "USA Today's Dan Vergano" it may be argued did a poor job in simply quoting the email, while neither giving the author credit for writing an opinion piece, nor writing one of his own.  Nevertheless, it seems very misleading to call this overuse of quotes "an email posted online".  Perhaps "USA Today's Dan Vergano quoted whatevertheheckintro Lindley as saying blah blah blah."  I am not touching this edit war.  Please don't call reverting one another corrections, that is misleading. - sinneed (talk) 04:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Philosophical criticisms
There are some very interesting philosophical criticisms of biocentrism on the part of Pope Benedict XVI which were published in December 2009. They could perhaps be cited in an eventual criticisms and controversies section of the article. ADM (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The Pope was talking about biocentrism, not biocentrism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.192.84.104 (talk) 13:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Comparison to Mention of Kant
I removed some original research from the article and User:Sinneed reverted my change. If no source has explicitly compared the theory to Kant's then it is original research for the article to do so. Unless a source for the comparison is added to the article, the content should be removed. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 03:28, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider it original research, or synthesis for that matter. The sentence is stating a scholarly fact (which isn't at all controversial), and no new knowledge comes out of this association to the theory. The sentence only points out that the concept is not entirely new. It provides historical perspective, and I don't see why an encyclopedia article shouldn't do that, or why its veracity could be disputed. -Jordgette (talk) 04:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with Goethean here. The Kant reference is free floating and seems to be attempting to give more credibility to the the ideas.  Without a third party reference it should go.  -- Snowded  TALK  10:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Moreover, the comparison is not entirely correct. Kant was a transcendental idealist, but an empirical realist. He believed that the world we see does not go away when we don't see it. His position is more nuanced than "space is a form of perception", I'd advise against referencing him here.86.62.106.225 (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I should have removed the revert text, since I did not revert. There is no comparison.  There is no original research.  Please restore the statement.  While it is not well-tied to the article, simply deleting it because you don't wp:LIKE the mention is not correct.  The sentence probably needs to be better tied in... but it is covered by the source, it is relevant, and thus should not be deleted.-  Sinneed  15:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What source? The Kant text was cited to two articles on Kant. I'm guessing that the Kant articles don't mention Lanza. Without a cite to a source which specifically compares Lanza's theory to Kant's, the Kant text is indeed WP:OR. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 15:47, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please expand. The INCLUSION is OR?
 * " Without a cite to a source which specifically compares Lanza's theory to Kant's" - There is no comparison in the text I placed in the article. Unless there is some reason to leave it out, I expect to restore it.  It is relevant, the sources were given.  The text is covered in the source.  If you need quotes added to the citations, I can do that.
 * Snowded's "to be attempting to give more credibility" seems reversed... if the concepts were the same, it would simply mean that whats-his-name's theory isn't his at all, rather than lending credibility. And... how would it lending or detracting credibility be a reason to NOT include?  We let our readers decide if things are credible, based on the wp:RS.  Is the argument that the sources are bad?-  Sinneed  20:44, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If the deletionist is claiming original research, then he/she should explain how the sentence is original research. In an article on the JFK assassination, I might expect mentions of past presidential assasinations, whether a 3rd party has "compared" them or not. Mentioning them in the JFK article would merely demonstrate that there has been a history of presidential assasinations, an uncontroversial fact. Is there any new, disputable knowledge put forth in this article by mentioning Kant as a historical precedent? -Jordgette (talk) 01:01, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see any response to IP86's valid comment that Kant was an empirical realist and the quote used is incomplete. I think you could find isolated quotes from many a philosopher which would use similar words, but deeper study would indicate a very different context.   I am also not sure that given the originals of Biocentrism which are "modern" it makes any sense to have this link with Kant.   Overall I would remove it.   However you are right, per WP:BRD when Goethean's removal of the material was challenged, then the matter should be discussed here before further edits took place.  What is clear is that connections with the ideas or thinking of other philosophers would need third party references showing a linkage and I can't see any of those.  -- Snowded  TALK  06:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * wp:SOFIXIT - Which part of "Philosopher Immanuel Kant argued in the late 1700's: that space is not objective or "real", but a product of the mind." is innaccurate?
 * wp:talk page guidelines - are quite clear, this page is not for discussion of Kant's philosophy, but of the content. The anon made no suggestion for content change, (other than words to the effect of "it is wrong kill it" and thus needs no response at this time. While interesting, the remarks do not belong here.  Wikipedia cannot assess correctness, only whether or not the content is based on information in published, generally wp:reliable sources.  Please focus on the content, not the underlying issue.-  Sinneed  15:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It is very simple. No cited scholar has compared Kant's theory to Lanza's &mdash; except you. That is why the text must go. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 13:22, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "except you." - wp:talk Please hew closer to the truth. I have not done so. There is no comparison in the article.  This article is not about Lanza's theory, and I feel his theory has wp:UNDUE weight. Focus on the content, not the editors.
 * Please identify which part of the text "Philosopher Immanuel Kant argued in the late 1700's: that space is not objective or "real", but a product of the mind." fails wp:NOR. Again, if you feel this is not covered by the source, I can help by providing quote= params.  If your objection is to the source, I may even agree, but I need to hear your objection.  I will remove the tag promptly otherwise.-  Sinneed  15:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixing it is removing it. Its a quote out of context, with no third party source to link it to the article.  The way to address an issue of  Snowded  TALK  15:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I lost this edit before, trying to recreate it, essentially: I am not going to restore this again. It was originally added by an anon, arguing that Lanza had stolen the theory from Kant.  I deemed that to be wp:OR, and rewrote it, leaving in what seems to be factual, relevant content that appears to be covered by the sources.  Since this seems to meet the requirements for inclusion, I support it.
 * "Its a quote out of context..." - it isn't a quote.
 * "with no third party source to link it to the article" - True but... so? - Sinneed  17:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Please hew closer to the truth. I have not done so. There is no comparison in the article. 
 * Really? Then why are you mentioning Kant's theory in this article? If there is no implied comparison, then the text has no content and can be removed without harming the article. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Then why are you mentioning Kant's theory in this article?" - because it is relevant, factual, and covered by what seem at first blush to be wp:RS.
 * "If there is no implied comparison, then the text has no content and can be removed without harming the article." - The entire article can be removed without harm to the article... it will simply contain less information. There is no implication.  There is no comparison. -  Sinneed  16:55, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) - As I understand it, the objection here is that Kant should not be mentioned because his arguments are not called "Biocentric". Is that correct, and is there any other objection?- Sinneed  17:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You have to find a third party reliable source that makes the connection, its that simple. -- Snowded  TALK  17:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Comparing to Kant or even mentioning Kant is a tricky issue. I agree that without a reliable source claiming some similarity that it is OR to include it. But (and I don't want to step on anyone's toes here) I think that because the issue of whether Kant is mentioned is a bit of a lightning rod for Lanza supporters and opponents, extra care needs to be taken to keep the article neutral. It seems to me (from Internet discussions outside Wikipedia) that any people who don't like Lanza like to compare him to Kant, using an attack on his originality as a proxy for an attack on whether he is right. Supporters of Lanza see this as the attack it is and so try to defend Lanza by rejecting the comparison. But I think (I hope) there is a neutral middle ground that not only can be found, but that can be reliably sourced.

A claim something like this: "The theory follows in a philosophical tradition that goes back at least as far as Kant" acknowledges the similarity while leaving room for the view that it is not just a rip-off. I think a statement like this can be sourced to Lanza himself. In his 1997 article in The American Scholar, Lanza wrote,


 * "Biology should be the first and last study of science. It is our own nature that is unlocked by means of the humanly created natural sciences used to understand the universe. Ever since the remotest of times philosophers have acknowledged the primacy of consciousness—that all truths and principles of being must begin with the individual mind and self. Thus Descartes’s adage: 'Cogito, ergo sum.' (I think, therefore I am.) In addition to Descartes, who brought philosophy into its modern era, there were many other philosophers who argued along these lines: Kant, Leibniz, Bishop Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Henri Bergson, to name a few."

In a press release issued by The American Scholar to publicize this article they wrote, "According to Dr. Robert Lanza in 'A New Theory of the Universe,' science is proving that consciousness actually creates reality. Philosophers since Kant have been arguing this case, but Lanza rolls out the new scientific evidence for it." I think this sufficiently sources a claim to there being some connection between Lanza's ideas and Kant's ideas to allow mention in the article. Since Lanza himself mentions Descartes, Leibniz, Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Bergson, they might also be worth mentioning. I leave this to others to decide. 99.192.89.45 (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be enough to say something generic like:
 * Lanza compares his theory to those of Kant, Leibniz, Bishop Berkeley, Schopenhauer, Henri Bergson and other philosophers.
 * In order to add more specific comparisons, other sources which actually make those comparisons are needed. To be clear, I am neither a supporter nor a denigrator of Lanza or his theory. I'm simply someone who was reading this article and saw that it did not abide by Wikipedia policy. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 22:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Goethean here. The above statement is accurate (if referenced to Lanza's work) and could be added (although I don't think it is particularly notable.  Taking one quote from Kant in isolation is however original research.  -- Snowded  TALK  07:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we are close to something that could be called a consensus on the issue here. Snowded, the reason I think it is notable to include a reference to philosophical history is because for someone who knows a bit about philosophy but has never heard of Lanza or his use of the term "biocentrism" (like me a couple of months ago - I was looking to see what Wikipedia said about biocentrism and I got this article instead), it can be helpful as an entry point to knowing what the view is.


 * Goethean, while I like the idea of trying to make the reference to the past thinkers a short one, I am not sure that just saying he "compares" his ideas to those of the named philosophers quite gets the idea. It also sounds like something that the most strong supporters of Lanza might read as suggesting "he admits that rips off these people's ideas". I certainly don't think that's what you meant, but I do think some might read it that way anyway.


 * I'd like to suggest the following inclusion in the article. The first paragraph in the "Theory" section currently reads: "The central claim of biocentrism is that what we call space and time are forms of animal sense perception, rather than external physical objects." I recommend it be changed to read as follows:


 * '''"The central claim of biocentrism is that what we call space and time are forms of animal sense perception, rather than external physical objects. Lanza suggests that this idea is part of a philosophical tradition of thinkers such as Descartes, Kant, Leibniz, Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Bergson that acknowledges "the primacy of consciousness"


 * I like the quoted words at the end because it makes it clear what he sees as the link among all these philosophers and his view, and it makes it clear that the suggestion really is Lanza's since it uses his own words to report it. Thoughts? Objections? Suggestions? 99.192.52.82 (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, User:Snowded has this theory that unless six editors agree on something, it's not consensus, but you can take that up with him.


 * Actually, all that Lanza said about Descartes & Co is: "philosophers have acknowledged the primacy of consciousness—that all truths and principles of being must begin with the individual mind and self." So you are attributing to these figures more than Lanza did. However, the promo mat'l claimed that 'Philosophers since Kant have been arguing that consciousness actually creates reality.' I think that you should be careful about this, because you don't want to put words in Lanza's mouth, esp. an interpretation of important philosophers. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Goethean, I am not sure I understand your concern here. First, the longer quote you give does not read to me as a more restrictive claim than the shorter quote I used, so I don't see how it is less accurate or puts words in his mouth to use the shorter quote. Can you please explain this to me again? Second, the press release does say "Philosophers since Kant", but that does not preclude the claim that philosophers before Kant have done so as well. But even if it did, I am not sure how that would present a problem for the wording I have suggested, since all the philosophers named there are ones Lanza names. So I'm a bit confused here. Can you help me out? Is there an alternative wording to what I cam up with that you can suggest? Thanks. 99.192.52.82 (talk) 16:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * {A little maturity please Groehean, I've merely pointed out that a 2:1 vote coupled with a refusal to discuss any compromise is not a consensus and that you need to adopt a less aggressive editorial style and work with people from time to time)
 * To the main point, I think it is OR to attempt to attribute a current controversial theory to historical philosophers. Asserting the primacy of consciousness a few hundred years ago does not endorse or create a precident for the fews of Lanza.  If Lanza drew on those names and claims to be their inheritor then that claim is relevant.  If a reliable third party has made the link then its also OK.  However its not OK for an editor to make that link and put it on to the article.  -- Snowded  TALK  17:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Snowded, since the suggested passage I wrote starts with "Lanza suggests that..." and there is a citation to back that up, am I right in thinking that you are ok with the change I recommend? I just want to be sure here. 99.192.52.82 (talk) 17:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the quote your are relying on says:  Ever since the remotest of times philosophers have acknowledged the primacy of consciousness—that all truths and principles of being must begin with the individual mind and self. Thus Descartes’s adage: “Cogito, ergo sum.” (I think, therefore I am.) In addition to Descartes, who brought philosophy into its modern era, there were many other philosophers who argued along these lines: Kant, Leibniz, Bishop Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Henri Bergson, to name a few. I don't think that supports your claim.  I think you could say Lanza argues that the primacy of consciousness features in the work of  Descartes, Kant, Leibniz, Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Bergson.  He sees this as supporting his central claim that what we call space and time are forms of animal sense perception, rather than external physical objects..  Hope that helps.-- Snowded  TALK  17:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Snowded, your suggestion looks pretty good to me, but since the placement of the passage is at the start of the section explaining the theory, the first sentence as it reads now (starting with "The central claim of biocentrism is ..." should probably remain unchanged. So how about this: "The central claim of biocentrism is that what we call space and time are forms of animal sense perception, rather than external physical objects. Lanza argues that "the primacy of consciousness" features in the work of Descartes, Kant, Leibniz, Berkeley, Schopenhauer, and Bergson and he sees this as supporting his central claim." 99.192.52.82 (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

How about: ''The founder of biocentrism, Laza argues that the primacy of consciousness features in .... He sees this as supporting the central claim ....'' That way the sequence follows the source. -- Snowded TALK  18:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me, Snowded. 99.192.76.96 (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Better see what G thinks before you change it -- Snowded  TALK  19:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I approve. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 23:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Change made! Thank-you both for the work on this. 99.192.67.156 (talk) 04:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree with Sinneed. There is only one "biocentric" theory. This page is about "BIOCENTRISM" - many such a Kant claimed it was human (anthro)-centric, not bio (animal) centric. Thus the word biocentric would be wrong to use in these cases- That is, unless you can find a reference where they used the word "biocentric" or "biocentrism" 24.91.254.16 (talk) 14:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You are not agreeing with me. You were not agreeing with me when you reverted my edits.  I request that you not assign your opinions to me.-  Sinneed  15:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

?
"According to biocentrism, life creates the universe rather than the other way around." - according to who?

"In this view, current theories of the physical world do not work, and can never be made to work, until they fully account for life and consciousness." - again, according to who? is this merely an attack on rational, science-based views? we can't explain consciousness, so there must be some supernatural explanation? is that it? as long as we can't explain consciousness, then there must be some God of the gaps?

this whole article seems to be a red herring, designed in response to the obvious observation that humans place greater importance on themselves than they do on the world around them (i.e. anthropocentrism)... is it religiously motivated? is "biocentrism" some type of new-age rationalization, designed to explain our lack of understanding of the natural world?

my opinion: this article is pure nonsense. life is part of the universe, not vice versa.


 * "...his theory of biocentrism is consistent with the most ancient wisdom traditions of the world which says that consciousness conceives, governs, and becomes a physical world. It is the ground of our Being in which both subjective and objective reality come into existence." - so, i can will objects into existence? my consciousness becomes reality? wow, what a revelation. now i can effect world peace, and make everything perfect.... if only cause and effect were reversed! ... to any clear-thinking scientist, consciousness is a result of the physical world... the physical world is NOT a result of consciousness! that's Solipsism. Fuzzform (talk) 10:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, Solipsism is a philosophical argument, that *there is only the mind of the individual*... that there is no universe other than the entity that thinks when one "says" "I am thinking, therefore there must be an entity to BE thinking, and this proves that I exist."
 * This is a (in the opinion of its progenitor and some others) scientific theory.
 * I would point to the previous discussion, and to wp:LEAD. The lead should be a summary of the content of the article, and it is therefore not usually practical to thoroughly source the lead... a large article might need more text for citations than for the text of the lead, making it impractical to read.
 * I have to agree that a lot of stuff has been added that is pure hyperbole, but I hope some other interested editor will apply the editorial hatchet. If not, mine is sharp, I'll revisit eventually.
 * "smokescreen" - whether some theory is right or not (or even whether it is a theory or not) is interesting to oneself, but WP "cares" only about what is published in the generally wp:reliable sources.- Sinneed  15:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposal for revised lead
A couple of weeks ago an editor said that the lead on this article wasn't very good. Although he retracted his comment, I agree. Also, the editor who added the previous section seemed confused by the article, and I think the lead is partly to blame. The first sentence should clearly identify the subject as a scientific theory. (The theory is what this article is about, yes?) I propose that we replace the current lead with the following one:


 * Biocentrism (from Greek: βίος, bios, "life"; and κέντρον, kentron, "center") is a scientific theory proposed in 2007 by American scientist Robert Lanza. In this view, life or biology is central to being, reality, and the cosmos — life creates the universe rather than the other way around. Biocentrism asserts that current theories of the physical world do not work, and can never be made to work, until they fully account for life and consciousness.


 * Lanza's biocentric theory builds on quantum physics. Biocentrism places biology before the other sciences in an attempt to solve one of nature’s biggest puzzles: the theory of everything that other disciplines have been pursuing for the last century. Lanza argues that biocentrism is falsifiable, and that future experiments, such as scaled-up quantum superposition, will either support or contradict the theory.

Let me know what you think. Jordgette (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess that the question is: did biocentric theories exist before Robert Lanza's? And do we want to mention that in the lede? &mdash; goethean &#2384; 00:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe something about the fact that physics is currently the foundational science and that that is what Lanza intends for biology to supplant? You kind of dance around the issue already. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 00:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Another thing --- when we were describing multiple types of biocentric theories, we needed the "life or biology or nature" and the "being or reality or the cosmos" language. Now, if we are only describing Lanza's theory, we can reduce the "or" terms. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 15:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Another thing --- it's a philosophical theory as well as a scientific theory. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Seeing no serious objection, I will now replace the lead with a variation on the above, based on Goethean's comments. I don't know if we have a source that it's considered a bonafide philosophical theory or position...but tweak away. -Jordgette (talk) 21:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless I missed something, the only mention in the article of a source that speaks about whether or not it is a philosophical theory is Dennett. The passage reads: "Daniel Dennett, a Tufts University philosopher, said he did not think the concept meets the standard of a philosophical theory. 'It looks like an opposite of a theory, because he doesn't explain how it [consciousness] happens at all. He's stopping where the fun begins.'" So unless there is some other source that says it is a philosophical theory, I'd say there is good reason not to count it as one. 99.192.56.143 (talk) 21:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

What's going on here?
The main biocentrism page has been changed. Does one individual have the authority to make this decision? Over 90% of material and entries on Google and other major search engines refer to biocentrism in the scientific/cosmological sense of the word. And the audience profile of the "Biocentrism" page (for Wikipedia as a public resource) tracks precisely to articls that apear about biocentrism (the scientific theory). The decision to change this shouldn;t depend on one person's bias and/or prejudices (or whether they personally like the idea or not). Staff3 (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Until someone opposes the change, sure. WP works on wp:be bold (if needed:  wp:BRD) and wp:consensus.  I think giving Lanza's proposal/book/article/etc. its own article seems appropriate, and it is appropriately linked in what I see as a neutral way at the top of the article.  At the moment I think this change seems to be a good idea and has my tentative support.  The present article is ugly, but it is a start-class article, so that seems reasonable. -  Sinneed  20:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. This change doesn't make sense. Most people refer to this page look for information about Biocentrism/biocentric universe (the scientific theory). Isn't that what Wikepdia is about - providing information about the topic they're looking for.72.165.90.110 (talk) 20:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The move was improperly done. The talk page and article history was lost. I have undone the attempted move. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 21:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Goethean! I, too, was wondering what happened. WikiWatch31 (talk) 22:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Also agree with above. I just checked the page statistics - last month there were (14,189) people who viewed the Biocentrism (Cosmology) page versus only 462 people who viewed the Biocentrism (ethics) page. 24.91.254.16 (talk) 14:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)