Talk:Birdo

External links modified
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Rename article
It has been suggested no later than 2007 that this article be renamed to Catherine, or possibly Birdetta. I have made this change (to Birdetta) it was reverted based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles. Canonically, the character's name is _Birdetta_ in North America, as it is clearly documented by Nintendo as the character's true and preferred name. It is true that many gamers and infact Nintendo themselves that often incorrectly refer to her as Birdo, but this is incorrect and harmful. The use of the name "Birdo" is discriminatory and abusive, and supportive of violence against LGBT people by disrespecting gender identity -- and the article already indicates via many references, including the continued use of 'she' pronouns that Birdetta identifies as female and prefers the "Birdetta" name.

I understand that WPCOMMON specifies that names should not be chosen based on what is "right" or not, but Wikipedia policies also include civility, anti-harrassment, anti-abuse, and anti-discrimination clauses which would apply here, which should restrict discriminatory descriptions except where it used as reference. The use of the name Catherine or Cathy would be an acceptable alternative as these comply to all the requirements of WPCOMMON Titles, as this is the commonly known and used name (in Japan), although North American audiences would be more familiar with the Birdetta name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewindisch (talk • contribs) 20:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have some links to official Nintendo media referring to this character as "Birdetta"? ~ Mable ( chat ) 07:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * (Other than the 1988 manual, of course, which is obviously outdated) ~ Mable ( chat ) 07:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi ,
 * First, the bureaucratic answer: Wikipedia goes by reliable sources (see WP:RS; for a list of reliable sources for video games specifically, see WP:VG/RS). If reliable sources would call the character Birdetta, we would too. As far as I can tell, that is not the case.
 * Second, the guidelines you're citing are usually for the Wikipedia community, like WP:CIVIL, WP:ABUSE and WP:NDP. There are articles called faggot (slang), nigger, gook, cheesehead (that's me!), beaner, you name it. The world can be an ugly place, and Wikipedia is a reflection of that. Don't forget, Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED.
 * Third, I honestly think you're making a mockery of LGBTQ issues with your claim. Birdo is a fictional character; how would she "identify as female" or prefer another name? She is created by Nintendo, but you believe the company is also incorrect by calling her Birdo? Why would "Birdo" be an offensive name? Is it some sort of slang I'm not familiar with? Regardless, suggesting that having Birdo as the title of the article is "supportive of violence against LGBT people" is absurd. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Not using a person (or character's) chosen name is "deadnaming", invalidates their identity. The SMB2 manual can be interpreted as a statement that the character is transgender and prefers the name Birdetta. MOS:GENDERID provides clarity here for "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." Now, I admit this is pretty old, so if this character has a newer, documented self-identified preference...71.175.51.8 (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Strongly opposing everything in this proposal, and supporting just about everything in Soeterman's response. Sergecross73   msg me  13:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Canonically, the character's name is Birdo. North American readers are unlikely to recognize the name Birdetta, as it hasn't been used for thirty years. How do you know this fictional character still prefers this fictional name last used in 1988? Your other suggestion, Catherine, is a perfectly fine name for the Japanese Wikipedia (and is indeed used there) but not for the English Wikipedia. It's not a name used for the character in English-speaking regions. Reach Out to the Truth 23:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I am referencing the SMB2 manual page which specifies (and is quoted in this article) as being preferred to be called "Birdetta". This requested change would also fall under WP:GenderIdentity. As to if this character would now prefer another name, lack of evidence is not evidence. Per WP:GenderIdentity: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.51.8 (talk) 00:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what I'm referring to. The manual is thirty years old, and Birdo's preferred name was removed from later printings. Even if WP:GENDERID applied to fictional characters, it is not the "most up-to-date" source. Reach Out to the Truth 00:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Reach Out to the Truth's comment is basically what I was thinking, yes. I could think of all kinds of reasons, ranging from retcon, to unreliable narrators, to a faulty translation of a Japanese concept, as for why Birdo may no longer be presented as transgender by Nintendo of America, or why the "Birdetta" name may no longer apply. ~ Mable ( chat ) 08:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I Imagine that a extremely small minority would argue that we should change the name of a fictional character when the only evidence of thier preferred identity was documented almost 3 decades ago. In all the cases I am aware of where Wikipedia has used the preferred gender identity of a person (real or fictional) is when they started using the name on a regular basis, not due to a decades old passing reference. I would also argue that the fact the character has gone by the name Birdo in several appearances since that manual was written indicates that they are not going by the name BIrdetta.--64.229.167.158 (talk) 04:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * There is also an apparent reference in Mario_%26_Luigi:_Superstar_Saga where "Birdo" is quoted as saying, "Don't call me Birdo, call me Birdie!" although verification of this reference and its context would be great. (If this is true, the argument could be made for 'Birdie' as the self-identified name). The character speaks seldomly on their own behalf, which is I think the only thing that matters per the MOP, not how others refer to them (the MOP does mention fictional characters so I think it applies here? IDK)Ewindisch (talk) 04:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The line is spoken in a very personal (not necessarily intimate) conversation that is similar to "Don't call me Robert, call me Bob." It's a one-off line that was added for humor. It hasn't changed anything; Nintendo has continued calling the character "Birdo" in the 13-14 years since this game was released, and all reliable sources continue calling it by this name. IMHO you're reading too much into a game series that is almost never consistent with itself. Attempting to relate or rationalize what characters say or prefer in context of real world topics is a waste of time. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 05:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with the editors above, this is making a mockery of real world LGBT issues. Birdo is a fictional character. She has no preference what she is called because she isn't real. Direct this energy towards articles like Brandon Teena that could use some work. TarkusAB  10:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree with Soetermans and Reach Out To The Truth. Birdo is the currently used name. ZettaComposer (talk) 14:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://mariosmashfootball.nintendo-europe.com/player.cfm?lang=es
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110610151304/http://www.gamespy.com/articles/971/971918p1.html to http://www.gamespy.com/articles/971/971918p1.html
 * Added tag to http://www.dailyemerald.com/2.2360/sex-drugs-and-nintendo-1.199085
 * Added tag to http://www.gamesradar.com/f/who-was-your-first-gaming-crush/a-200904219410533090/p-2
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External links modified
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