Talk:BitTorrent/Archive 4

Protocol spesification
sorry guys but does anyone know where is the protocol specification for torrent?i saw some sites but it is not there to log to ..like http://wiki.theory.org/ and the main site of bittorrent..but i m askig about more specification..can anyone help at that? 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * try http://www.bittorrent.org/protocol.html and also look a the open source bittorent client (see downloads page on bittorent.com) Trapper 21:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Protocol specification
try http://www.bittorrent.org/protocol.html and also look a the open source bittorent client (see downloads page on bittorent.com) Trapper 21:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * thx, i will look at ctorrent, do u think it is nice one to look at in the beginning? -- 2 August 2006

Why there is no RFC for BitTorrent or is there any close tcp/ip based protocol? -- 18 October 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by V4vijayakumar (talk • contribs).
 * BitTorrent runs over tcp/ip - there is no RFC becasue there is no IETF working group to write one. Trapper 06:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Legality section
...nice summary, I enjoyed reading it, but if it gets any bigger it might merit its own wiki article Silent0 05:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The link to datagalaxy.net does not work. (83.71.110.112 00:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC))

Reverting Talk Page
Why are we reverting comments that seemed to make sense out of the talk page? Trapper 00:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted the deletion of those comments, you silly. :) -- intgr 01:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It was the initial deletion that I was questioning Trapper 03:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hiding System Tray
Is there someway to minimize the Bittorrent donwloader to the system tray and hide it? Currently, if you move your cursor over the icon, you can see what program you are downloading. Is there anyway to hide what yo are downloading? Jamesino 20:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this is not the place for asking this question. The guidelines state that you should talk about the article, not the topic. -- ReyBrujo 03:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk page archival
Since this page was getting hideously huge, I archived messages from 2004 up until last month. Some of the conversations that are still continuing have been copied onto this page as well. Regards, Ladida 12:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

TCP/IP not mentioned anywhere
BitTorrent uses TCP/IP as the underlying transport and network protocols. This is mentioned nowhere in the article. Neither are the default ports mentioned (e.g. 6969 for the tracker). I would add this information myself, but I don't know where to put it. Aragorn2 19:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I came here looking to find out what ports this protocol uses - which seems a pretty basic piece of information for any internet protocl - and yet "port" appears nowhere in the article. A brief discussion of the technology seems appropriate. The article does point to http://www.dessent.net/btfaq/, which does discuss some of this stuff. Jim Mahoney 01:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * BitTorrent may also use UDP, and port 80 may be used for the tracker port. -expert01 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.196.146.68 (talk • contribs).


 * Actually the protocol itself has no defined ports. The tracker url (with port) is specified in the .torrent file and the actual ports used by the clients are entirely arbitrary since they announce themselves to the tracker.  So while it does use TCP there are no defiend ports. Trapper 19:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone
I have made improvements to the Limitations and security vulnerabilities section and removed this notice:

...since I believe it's OK now. Any questions? :) --220.233.190.26 11:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Piracy is a mess
Okay, I have been trying for some time now to consolidate all information in piracy into one comprehensive article. Originally this was through significant additions to the article on copyright infringement, but piracy lies somewhat beyond the scope of that article. I just discovered the article on copyright infringement of software, and VCD peddler yesterday. As well, you can find significant discussions in the articles on Bittorrent, RIAA and related articles. I was in the process of creating a proposed article in my user namespace to be at Piracy (information), but in light of the widespread discussion of this issue I've realized that this is not something that I can do alone.

So, I'm asking for help, or at least discussion of ways to clear up the present situation. Please comment on the proposed article's talk page, so that we can keep discussion centralized... despite the insanity that attempts to cover this rather complex topic. --IntrigueBlue 06:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Too long?
Why did someone put a length tag on this article? I've seen much longer articles. Nothing here seems pointless, and it's well organized.

I suppose the terminology could be separated into another entry, but that seems unnecessary to me.

What do others think?

Aroundthewayboy 03:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I too think it's too long - perhaps time for a split. I suggest taking all the legal related stuff (legal uses etc) and putting it on a new page and leaving the protocol article discussing just the actual protocol not the politics that surround some of it's uses. Trapper 19:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources?
Clients incorporate mechanisms to optimize their download and upload rates, for example using a tit for tat scheme. Peers download pieces in a random order, to increase the opportunity to exchange data. This is both BS and ill worded. tit for tat brings up a battle strategy which is vastly unrelated to sharing, saying it uses a trading scheme is much better. Second, I know enough about the protocol to say that peers download baised on avaliability, if a particular section is only one one seeder then the primary effort of the protocol would be get that section onto other peers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.247.242.76 (talk • contribs).

History?
There's a "new developments" section, but shouldn't there be a History section near the top explaining the protocol's origins and rise in popularity? —pfahlstrom 02:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I came looking for the day it was launched and couldn't easily find it. 68.42.91.242 06:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not link to irrelevant information
For the users that keep posting links to TBSource and TBDev, these links belong in the BitTorrent Tracker article.

-expert01

Acronym not linked
Could someone please link the acronym HBO to indicate what it is referring to? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.206.133.13 (talk • contribs).
 * I would say it is HBO, according to reference 18, but I am not sure how good that reference is. -- ReyBrujo 04:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

TorrentBytes
The link to the TorrentBytes FAQ should be removed. As a member, I highly doubt the admins want links to their member only bittorrent tracker posted on a highly browsed public website. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bleu`dove (talk • contribs).

Encouraging illegal download
Not you guys! But I knew I would get your attention. Do you think that if the owner of an intellectual property has pulled it from distribution due to having violated copyright in creating it (i.e. he created something that he cannot legally distribute), that wikipedia should mention in the article on the property that torrents are available? The torrent being illegal of course and against the stated wishes of the rights owner. --Justanother 19:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The answer is "yes", Wikipedia should mention it if it is a significant fact, which in this case it is. Policy makers, copyright owners, and the non-infringing public also benefit from the knowledge that it "is available".  The article does not suggest, encourage, or enable illegal behavior, but it does do a great job of what is intended to do: inform.


 * ACGoris 6 January 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.17.176.97 (talk • contribs).

DHT type is based on Kad
The DHT type in the article is listed as being based off of Bamboo DHT. However, if you look in the actual source itself, the DHT is based off the Khashmir DHT source base which is an implementation of Kademila. Furthermore, the actual Kademila article gets the usage right. 66.233.137.79 08:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Speed of Bittorrent
The article says "BitTorrent transfers are typically very fast, because all nodes in a group concentrate on transferring a single file or collection of files." -- what is the comparison? I think few would dispute that a Bittorrent download is actually incredibly slow compared to a webserver. Indeed, it doesn't actually get "fast" until after a very long ramping period, and it doesn't stay "fast" up to the very end (speed ramps down to a crawl toward the end and it often says "ETA: 1 hour" for several hours straight). When its speed is actually measured objectively (total bytes / total time), even for the most well-seeded file, it's rarely fast at all. Furthermore, is it actually any faster than Kazaa or eMule or any other P2P platform? Is there any data to support this claim? And finally, the reasoning given for why it's supposedly fast doesn't make sense: nothing prevents nodes from participating in multiple simultaneous downloads, and thus this reasoning holds for BitTorrent no more than other P2P services. I'd propose a clarification:

"'After a moderate ramping period, BitTorrent transfers of well-seeded files can achieve very high speeds, though this speed falls off toward the end of the transfer."

Quinthar 09:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually if a client implements the fast extensions (see bittorrent.org) it will start up much faster and if it's well designed will not slow at the end (that's a client issue not a protocol issue) Trapper 09:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, that's cool. However, "much faster" still isn't that fast.  A good webserver (say, Akamai) "starts up" incredibly fast and remains that way all the way to the end of the file.  It should be made clear that BitTorrent behaves in a very different way (ie, starts slow, ramps up to fast, and then falls off to slow again). Quinthar 03:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * no file sharing protocol is going to beat a web server co-located with your ISP becasue the limiting factor is your last mile connection.  When the web server is under powered or the owner doesn't want to pay a CDN like Akamai then the overall efficiency of BitTorrent is very hard to beat. Trapper 05:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no reason a P2P download can't be as fast or faster than a webserver. Given enough peers, you should be able to saturate any downlink.  But really, while the cost-savings of BitTorrent and whether it would be possible to build a P2P network faster than a webserver are interesting topics, they're separate to my core point that BitTorrent is fundamentally slower than a good webserver, and the article should state as much.  I think we agree on this point, and I haven't heard any dispute on this point, so I'm going to update the main article.  Quinthar 20:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

cut from article: Though both ultimately transfer files over a network, BitTorrent differs from HTTP in several fundamental ways. First, BitTorrent makes many small P2P requests over different TCP sockets, while HTTP makes a single request over a single TCP socket. Second, the BitTorrent protocol limits a client's download speed to roughly its upload speed, while HTTP gives no preferential treatment to cooperative nodes. And third, BitTorrent downloads in a random or "rarest-first" approach that ensures high availability, while HTTP downloads in a contiguous manner. Taken together, BitTorrent achieves much lower cost, much higher redundancy, and much greater resistance to abuse or "flash crowds" than a regular HTTP server. However, this protection comes at a cost: downloads take time to ramp up to full speed because these many peer connections take time to establish, and it takes time for a node to get sufficient data to become an effective uploader. As such, a typical BitTorrent download will gradually ramp up to very high speeds, and then slowly ramp back down toward the end of the download. This contrasts with an HTTP server that, while more vulnerable to overload and abuse, ramps up to full speed very quickly and maintains this speed throughout. Furthermore, BitTorrent's non-contiguous download methods prevent it from supporting "progressive downloads" or "streaming playback", as is possible with HTTP.


 * removed this section. You can also use the http protocol to download a file from multiple mirrors in multiple pieces. Getright did this a long time ago. This confuses the client and the behaviour again. A comparison whit a traditional sequential download can be made, be it either ftp or http, but the current text is just not correct. :Leuk he 12:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What specifically is incorrect, and how would you correct it? That's a fair point that it oversimplifies HTTP and discounts the possible use of Range-Requests for non-contiguous downloads.  With this in mind, how about we clarify the first sentence with: "Though both ultimately transfer files over a network, a BitTorrent download differs from a classic full-file HTTP request in several fundamental ways."  I've gone ahead and re-added the section with this and other clarifications.  Rather than yanking it back out again, can you just correct it in place? Quinthar 07:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Time for a split?
As has been mentioned the article is quite long. How about we split it into two: the technical stuff about the protcol itself and the political stuff about it's uses? Trapper 05:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree It might be time for a split. Maybe BitTorrent (protocol) can keep the introduction and headings 1, 2, a (very) small part of 3 (just note the fact that is is used that way), 5, 6, 7 and 8, and move the rest to something like BitTorrent legal issues. That page would require some work including a new introduction, and could include the headings I just left out. I will put up the tag. Martijn Hoekstra 20:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I also aggree. This page has too much non technical sections that could be placed into a seperate article; maybe placing it in with the BitTorrent client article?  IMO this article should lean more twards the technical workings of the BitTorrent protocol.  Sections I propose to be removed (or moved to somewhere else) from this article are:


 * 2. Comparison with other file sharing systems


 * 3. Legal use of BitTorrent


 * 4. Legal Issues


 * 7. BitTorrent-related applications


 * There needs to be more information as to how BitTorrent works in the TCP/IP or OSI model and also more of the technical aspects. I feel this article is confusing the fact that there is a BitTorrent "application" and a BitTorrent "protocol".  There needs to be a clear cut definition in the opening paragraph and throughout the rest of the article. --Pchov 11:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There is also the BitTorrrent "social phenomenon". I would say that, to the general Wikipedia readership, that is by far the most important viewpoint.  Therefore I would suggest that sections like (1) Torrents, (3) Legal uses and (4) Legal issues and a general overview should stay here in the main article and there should be technical spin-off articles like BitTorrent (client) and/or BitTorrent (protocol).  The vast majority of WP readers and browsers are most likely non-technical people. --Nigelj 12:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone clarify why down is way faster than up
Supposedly, total down = total up. I've set up bittorrent for maybe 5 friends, and we all get 100-200 down, and 10-30 up. Why can't this article explain that? It's possible, but I seriously doubt for everyone like me, there's someone getting 10 down and 200 up. What's the deal? I asked at the help desk once, and all I received were comments from people who experience the same thing, but no explanation. - Peregrinefisher 18:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Though "total down = total up" is true across the whole network (after all, every byte received must have been sent by somebody), it won't necessarily be true for every individual download. In particular, if you join a torrent that has many seeds and few leachers, then most of the people you're connected to already have the file and don't need anything from you (thus the low upstream).  However, if you join a torrent that has very few seeders and very many leachers, then all of your peers will want data back from you, and thus you'll find that "up = down" more regularly. Does this make sense? Quinthar 23:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It makes sense, but I would like to learn about whoever is uploading way more than they download. Maybe the internet connections are different in Europe or Asia, where they can easily upload at speeds much greater than in the US.  I've had experience with US dsl and cable modems, and if everyone had that type of connection, it seems the download would max out around 25.  I guess I want to know where the bits are coming from, because they aren't coming from people like me with a comcast cable connection. - Peregrinefisher 00:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * but I would like to learn about whoever is uploading way more than they download. 1> People hire/have access to "seedboxes", commercial grade connections that can upload megabytes/sec 2> Goodish home connections that upload 24/7 3> A willingness to upload on a particular for weeks or months, even if the upload isn't fast. People do this to manage their ratios (as mentioned in the Equiette section) and also in the spirit of sharing. So yes, people upload when they're not downloading, in the best communities, at any given time, there are considerably more people uploading than downloading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.161.11.199 (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Just glancing at some tomshardware.com forums, and everyone who mentions upload speed quotes a number about 1/10 of their download.  I know this would be original research if we used it, but can someone find a legitamate source for this and explain it? - Peregrinefisher 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's common sense. There isn't a need for a legitimate source.  In regards to bit torrent, there are two factors that will determine your upload speed.  First, how fast your internet service provider will let you upload.  Especially in the United States, your download will be much more faster than your upload.  Charter, in my hometown for an example, allows a 400kB/s download, and a 30kB/s upload.  Second, it depends on the amount of seeders/leechers.  If your internet provider lets you upload at 1MB/s, but there's 1,000 seeders and only 2 leechers, the chances of you uploading at the full 1MB/s is very unlikely, unless you're the only individual connected to the leecher.  This article need not explain bandwidth limitations, because that isn't what it is about.  It's about a form of downloading. The situation your describing isn't uncommon.  Look into your internet service provider, and find out the information on the bandwidth services they provide.  That will hold the key to your answer.  Bleu`dove 01:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Broadband Internet access worldwide, almost all ISPs have higher download than upload. It doesn't seem like up would equal down.  Is it that a bunch of people leave their client running even while not downloading? - Peregrinefisher 01:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You understand that bit torrent isn't a replica of the internet, right? Almost all ISP's do offer a faster download speed than upload speed.  What don't you understand about this in regards to bittorrent?  I really don't know what your confused about?  The fact that ISP's offer a faster download in comparison to upload is just a fact. Bleu`dove 03:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Think of the total torrent swarm as a large pool that has bits added to it by every participant and bits taken out of it by every downloader. In theory you could have a case where all participants have exactly one piece of the file and everybody will end up with all of the file - in that case the average download will equal the average upload.   However in real life there are often many clients who have completed their download and are just uploading (seeds) - those clients contribute bits to the pool but don't consume so the average upload rate is higher.     Things get confused further by the heuristics of some clinets (such as the official BitTorrent client) which when seeding tend to favor peers that can download fast.    Modeling the behavior is further complicated by the fact that many users have asymetric connnections (*cable, adsl) and are often downloading multiple torrents.   All of these effects interact to create a very complex model.   The math get realy interesting really fast.   Trapper 06:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please refer to Talk page guidelines This is not a forum about bittorent and it's functionality.  --Pchov 10:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Various
Hi, Possible to give a little brief of why you deleted the various section and how it could be done properly? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.236.111.16 (talk • contribs).

Torrent filenames
The article states:

However, a torrent file always has the suffix .torrent.

As far as I'm aware, this would be more accurately stated:

However by convention, a torrent file always has the suffix .torrent.

I'm pretty certain there's nothing anywhere that demands the torrent file be named anything in particular. I could easily modify the "official" client python code to look for files called .foobar and it would still work fine since that's just the file that contains the actual metadata that the client wants to know about the associated download.

208.26.45.85 23:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Change made. Next time, you should feel free to be bold, and make the change yourself :-)  splintax  (talk) 14:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

55% of upstream traffic dubious, real stats needed
The first reference, cited in the opening paragraph in support of "CableLabs...believes that BitTorrent represents 55% of the upstream traffic on the cable company's access network", actually says:
 * "BitTorrent uses tremendous amounts of bandwidth, especially in the upstream (home outward) direction. How much? Try 10 BitTorrent users gumming up 55% of the upstream signal path, per neighborhood node."

and is refering to a simulation based on a small sample of BitTorrent behavior. It is not an actual traffic measurement as is implied, and my reading is that the "10 BitTorrent users...per neighborhood node" is pure supposition - if the actual number of users is unknown, the simulation does not reveal the extent to which links will be saturated. Surely someone must have some up-to-date measured figures - even if it is only from one typical ISP? In fact, the cited article says "some 18% of all broadband traffic carries the torrents of BitTorrent" which may be worth including, especially if anyone can turn up the original paper, rather than just this article about it. 81.79.242.103 13:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Today the 18% number in the article was changed to 18% carries the bittorrent files to initiate. The above source looks indeed like it is only the bittorrent files. Unfortunately, the source is not very clear on it. I hope someone can fish up the actual paper to check what it says exactly, and we'll be out of this pickle for a while. I won't change it straight away, but I propose a change to "the estimates on the amount of bandwith used range between 18% and 55%" or something similar, untill someone finds the paper itself. Martijn Hoekstra 19:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

NO MENTION OF NEGATIVES
The problem with torrents are that some files are dead without seeding. Someone include that please include the flaws in Torrents. The media/public think it's some silver bullet but it's not.

Where did the Terminology paragraph disappear?
It was on December 2nd for example. Now I see this paragraph has been removed on December 13th. I know Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but some terms like 'seed', 'swarm' or 'tracker' have to be explained since a lot of other simpler ones are explained in Wikipedia. I'm sure the majority of Wikipedia readers don't know exactly what they mean. My interpretation of that rule (Wikipedia is not a dictionary)is that if you make an article, it shouldn't be just a definition of a term. In my case, those definitions helped me a lot to understand what a torrent refers to. Since those informations were very helpful, in my opinion, we must find a solution to bring them back maybe in another form. Thank you! Daniel77o 00:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the links to separate articles are enough, or the main one will become too long. MrFirewall 13:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There was no link to another article when I wrote that comment. I hope it is now (it is not). Those very important informations (surely someone worked hard for writing that BitTorrent dictionary) just vanished.

I'm in doubt, to reinsert somewhere in this article that Terminology paragraph or to make another article, concerning the rule that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. My interpretation is that a Terminology article referring to BitTorrent is OK as it is not a definition of the article name. The reason for elimnating that paragraph was that rule, as I remember, but as I said the rule was wrongly interpreted because the definitions didn't refer to the article name. The length could be a problem but there are a lot of other longer articles. So I'll try to make my first article. If I do anything wrong please forgive me but nobody wanted to help solving this problem. Daniel77o 16:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentence in introduction

 * "CableLabs, the research organization of the North American cable industry, believes that BitTorrent could represent 55% of the upstream traffic on the cable company's access network."

Which company? -Pgan002 01:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

What is a torrent?
Is a torrent the metadata file, or the file to be shared, or the process of sharing a file? The article is confusing about this: -Pgan002 03:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "... a peer first creates a "torrent." This is a small file which contains metadata"
 * "The tracker maintains lists of the clients currently participating in the torrent" (Obviously, peers cannot participate in a file.)
 * "... BitTorrent Inc released a service that automatically creates a torrent and tracks a download based on a website object." (Apparently, the service creates a metadata file.)
 * "Such a group of peers connected to each other to share a torrent is called a swarm." (To share the payload file?)
 * Number one. --Ysangkok 13:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Technicaly speaking, it is the metadata file, but the terms is also (incorectly) used for the process of shareing. The fourth examle is IMO nor only incorrect, and should not used as such. If the above phrases are still in the text (I will check shortly) I will change them to be more correct. Martijn Hoekstra 13:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * After looking it trough, im correcting myself: A torrent file is a metadata file. A torrent is the payload data and its transport. I will admit that these terms are a bit cumbersome, but in everyday use 'torrent' may also mean 'torrent file', and it is usualy clear what is meant.

Article Cleanup & Layout Restructuring
This article needs a bit of a cleanup so as to focus on the actual technical aspect of the protocal better. As of now, many things that have nothing to do with the actual protocal are littered throughout the article. Anyone thats willing to help restructure this article into more clearly defined, and specific sections please share your ideas here. INO Exodus (talk) 05:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Other approaches
After a number of reverts and re-reverts of the windows zip system, I think it's time to settle this dispute on the talk page before it becomes a lame edit war. Can the people reverting it and re-reverting it give their reasons for it here, so this dispute can be solved? This doesn't need to escalate in a full fledged edit war. Martijn Hoekstra 18:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Alternative approaches
Alternative approaches refers to Azureus 2.3.0.2 as if it were an upcoming release, The current version is 2.5.0.4, this section should be updated appropriately, i.e. was the goal achieved? delayed for a future release? --XanderJ 19:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

BitTorrent development history
Come on! Let's see some history, when did the idea of bittorrent first come about? When was the first version released? By what time did it become immensely popular? Let's see some comparisons to other P2P programs like Kazaa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.146.236.11 (talk) 20:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

NOT THE OFFICIAL BITTORRENT SITE
According to this, the above URL and the one cited in 'external links' is *not* the official site of the company, BitTorrent. Instead, it has several hallmarks of a 'fake' site (again, see the link I posted) and asks for email etc. to 'signup'.

I will be changing the 'official site' link to this, the 'real' site. Note that this one has as part of its 'press release' section the recent (and genuine) takeover of uTorrent, which I consider evidence it's genuine. And it doesn't ask for money. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.184.30.17 (talk) 19:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Don't make a fool of yourself. The URL you linked to as being the "official site" redirects to http://www.bittorrent.com. Yurimxpxman 14:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It appears the page is 'protected or semiprotected'. I wonder in what way Wikipedia is 'open' nowadays... never mind. I urge somebody deemed 'safe' enough to modify the link to do so, and stop the page redirecting interested people to a place that has them pay for what is free. 139.184.30.17 19:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Uh-huh. The black helicopters will be round shortly to, erm, "correct" this. Please remain calm. Chris Cunningham 15:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See . Bram Cohen is the creator of Bit Torrent, and so I do believe www.bittorrent.com is indeed the official website. - EndingPop 15:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * bittorrent.com is the site for the corporation created by Bram. bittorrent.org is the "official" bittorrent protocol site. Bcharles 20:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a number of comments referring to this article being protected, so i trust that it was, for some period. I also trust that someone misspelled the mentioned link such that it went to a spam site. Bcharles 20:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Bittorrent.com (and the link listed) are both valid and the site quoted provides *free* software...IMO UTorrent is better :-P SmUX 17:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation
Legal issues asks for cite re: two computers confiscated. Since the article is protected, someone else can add as the citation when the protection is lifted. 58.162.2.122 09:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I find no mention of computers confiscated, so i guess this reference was edited out. Bcharles 20:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Typos
Typos! "Word of warcraft should be "world" and out=our. See section 3.5. 140.247.125.100 17:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Good catches. As Wikipedia allows all (even anonymous) users to edit, and since this article is not protected, there is nothing to keep you from making the changes in the article text.  Happy editing. --StuffOfInterest 17:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

BitTorrent?
Wondering if there's any initiative underway to integrate BitTorrent distribution into Flash, eg for BitTorrent to be used to loadMovies called for from within SWFs. Doesn't seem to be, but figured I'd post a wonder here just in case. -:)Ozzyslovechild 05:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt it seeing as how you wouldn't need to load in any swfs that were bigger than say 3mb. Unless maybe you were loading in video files or something. 70.254.88.236 02:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (substituted leading spaces with ':') --Lexein 19:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Are bit torrents safe?
I want to know if torrents are safe and if it will harm your computer or give you anything nasty. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.228.152 (talk) 15:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
 * From my experience, programs varies from one to another, I download mine from the BitTorrent program, I tend to use a AVG virus checker when downloading and it has on a few times, caught and destroyed files it claims to have a virus on some often basis, other than that, I have no other problems. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Willirennen (talk • contribs) 14:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Never, ever connect to a tracker that you don't trust. Bittorrent does not prevent creation of trackers containing malware. Avoid sites that offer any sort of illegal or questionable content. —CobraA1 18:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Slow Download
My computer usually downloads files at 500kb per second. When I use the BitTorrent it downloads at 10kb per second. If I wanted to download files, I would have to wait many days. Is there any way that it could download files faster? -Da Man 2000


 * Nope.Richardfu40 22:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The speed at which you download files depends on at least two factors: (1) the speed at which you can receive the file, and (2) the speed at which the source can send the file. You can download stuff from Google's servers very quickly because they have vast server resources. However, if you are downloading from some guy's computer, or a moderately-sized site with heavy demand, then the speed will be very slow. --RealGrouchy 03:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Really. If you are using DSL internet technoology, then the download speed is much higher than the upload speed. Since the trackers punish you for not seeding (i.e. not uploading enough) then you cannot speed up the downloads. You only solution is to leave your computer seed the file for a few hours while downloading nothing, this will help boost your download speed since the tracker will notice that you are sharing more. I for one can download at a speed of 1.2MBps, however, even with 1000 peers on, I can only get about 200 kBps download from torrent because the other users have very slow upload speeds. That is all.


 * Trackers don't punish. BitTorrent is not literally "fair". This is utter nonsense but this is the wrong forum to discuss this. --82.141.60.4 23:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

BitTorrent uses optimistic unchoke, which means that if you don't upload enough to the person you are downloading from they will disconnect you and look for a better person to download off. Effectively this means that your upload speed effects your download speed. wiesel 03:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I wonder - should this be put into the article as a limitation? Personally, I've seen this problem with asymmetric connections pretty much everywhere I go. It's pretty rare for an ISP to offer a truly symmetric connection for a household in the USA. In addition, a firewall or router often shuts down uploading because other peers can't find you so you can upload to them. I've heard a lot of people praise BitTorrent, but my own personal experience is that it never maxes out my download rate the way a direct download from well managed server can. Frankly, I think the lack of consideration for asymmetric connections and total ignorance of firewall behavior are major weaknesses of the protocol. —CobraA1 18:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Indexing
TorrentPluribrain was an spanish attempt to create a torrent desktop search tool. But Legal issues killed it --80.59.58.238 00:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Added Link
Hi, I just added a link of a good site I came across with a simple bittorent guide and utorrent tutorial for beginners. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Exile.mind (talk • contribs) 13:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

2 questions about BitTorrent
These are the 2 questions I wanted to ask about downloading from BitTorrent

Willirennen 14:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) If I want to change my provider from BitTorrent to uTorrent and transfer my entire file content, is that possible
 * 2) Is it safe to defrag my hard drive with it being full of unfinished Torrent files


 * If by file content you mean downloaded files, unfinished files and .torrent files (metadata), then yes. (Just add .torrents in utorrent and point to corresponding files and/or directories).
 * It should be safe, as long as torrent client is not running (because it would need access these files).
 * -Yyy 06:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

2. Should be fine even if the client is open, because of hash-checking, but i'm not sure, i've never tried it. wiesel 03:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit, combination of sections
The changes I just made may look drastic in the diff( wish diff were smarter), but only truly redundant material has been deleted. Please note a couple of for research, thanks. --Lexein 22:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Internet traffic quote outdated
"CacheLogic puts that number at roughly 35% of all traffic on the Internet." following the link goes to an article from 2003/2004, and the article itself mentions supanova, now long closed down. Maybe this quote needs removing / updating? 62.31.72.30 11:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Martijn Hoekstra 22:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the statistic is older than that - it is from 2002 (7 years old now). I have changed the sentence to reflect that so that readers do not think that it is a current quote, but we really do need an updated statistic.  I don't know enough about the subject to find where such a statistic might be.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.154.57 (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * CacheLogic used to be the company that provided all of the studies. They've changed their name and moved on, it seems.  ipoque is now releasing regular studies that could be gleaned for this information: Internet Study 2008/2009.  I'll try to see what I can get out of them... Rurik (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Not right
This thing is not right. That program is a download program. Any thing that can help us? Richardfu40 21:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What? Please use this page only for discussion about improving the article.--Lexein 02:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand your question now. At the top of the page, it says: This article is about the protocol. For the program called BitTorrent, see BitTorrent (client). Cheers. --Lexein 22:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Extent of "Adoption of BitTorrent" section
I think the list of various implementations of BitTorrent looks a bit excessive. This isn't intended to be an exhaustive list, is it? If so, that is not appropriate. --RealGrouchy 03:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Should not be exhaustive, but should be an concise overview. Adoption implies eager acceptance into both obvious and non-obvious areas, including speed of that acceptance. "Used within organizations", "in games for updates", "in storage servers", "as official distribution method", "used by low-budget operations" - I would keep the first citable examples of a class. The section could use copyedit. Worth discussing.  --Lexein 04:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

my edit
Ummm...I don't know what happened. Maybe my info was cached on a computer that someone else used to edit this article. I found it in my list of contributions, but I have never looked at this article, and never intentionally edited it. I know nothing of BitTorrent, so if whoever did edit this article under my name made a mistake, please feel free to revert... --Ioshus (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh. For a ghost edit it's actually been very productive, bringing the standard of writing in that paragraph up quite a bit. Thank your ghost writer :) Chris Cunningham 19:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, glad I, I mean we , wait it could help. Maybe I can coerce it into writing my thesis for me... =] --Ioshus (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

can i add an external link?
i created a website called peerit.com which is built on top of bittorrent 4.2.2. i added digest authentication to the client/tracker, and tied the tracker to a database/acl. clients are modified to login, request peerid, and post to tracker at end of download how much they downloaded from different peerids. tracker only distributes peer list to logged in users who are in access control list (users who have purchased). sellers can post torrents for sale on the website, for a price as well as a payout. the payout is paid to the buyers depending on how much they help distribute. the website payments are integrated with PayPal and Google Checkout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjschnei (talk • contribs) 18:10, 8 May 2007


 * That'd be advertising. Work to build up community interest so that someone writes an article on your site and links to that as a related technology. Chris Cunningham 18:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

change SUMO Torrent to IsoHunt
IsoHunt is one of the larger search engines, which is more in fitting with TPB and TorrentSpy (especially relating to current MPAA legal action against isoHunt and TorrentSpy). SUMO Torrent is largely unknown, hence this edit should stand. 71.195.250.40 06:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
This entry: "Similar to other programs such as Yahoo Music which borderline on malware, once the program is installed, it forces itself to start upon Windows startup even when the option not to start is ticked in the settings applet." was not appropriate for this article, which is about the protocol, not the client. It's also opinion, stated without citation. It's also false, implying that Bittorrent shares flaws with Yahoo Music, specifically a startup behavior not documented anywhere else. So it's also original research, so it's gone. --Lexein 19:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There's little need to justify the removal of nonsense added to articles by anonymous POV warriors. It was already removed once. Thanks for getting rid of it again. Chris Cunningham 10:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Webseeding
The above page redirects to here, but there is no information on it. 82.15.226.236 16:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The 'Adoption' section'
I've just re-organised this section a bit. It used to be much better in the past, but was seriously damaged by what was either vandalism or a very careless edit, made without comment by 83.228.4.216. See diff. In those days it was called 'Legal use of BitTorrent'. In a later edit, Thumperward removed the subtitles from what little was left and then, in this edit, s/he "rename[d] section, [and] merge[d it] with an identical one later on", which effectively killed it off. The structure and sense was gone, but much of the material was still here and still getting edited by many others.

I have reinstated the subheadings, as, without them, new material had been added willy-nilly so that the flow of text jumped back and forth between dealing with games, films and other uses in a way that encouraged repetition and reader confusion.

I have moved the existing comments into groups under the headings. I don't necessarily agree with the current material and I haven't checked it for facts, or followed the few citations that exist to see if they are good references for the material presented.

I reinstated the text of the old subsection about software distribution, as it was much better referenced and more general than what I found here today. Again I haven't re-checked the links or references.

I hope for two things: First that this does not become a link-farm for everybody who sets up or finds what they consider to be a good torrent to advertise it here - these should only be a few of the first, the biggest or the most notable examples in each class of legitimate usage, just to show that such things exist. Secondly I hope that people will take the time to improve the quality of what's here - by checking and updating the existing references and by adding more. --Nigelj 15:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Demonoid
Demonoid is said to be a Private Tracker, but it is a Public Tracker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Horror master34 (talk • contribs) 20:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

random versus rarest first downloading
The second bullet point under "operation" mentions downloads occurring rarest first. This does not seem to be part of the original protocol which refers only to random order downloading. Is there a specific implementation that uses rarest first? Bcharles 20:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Tor for Bittorrent
Tor was not invented to be used for Bittorrent, and using Bittorrent on Tor can ruin its usablility for others. There should be some mention that combining Bittorrent with Tor is unethical, and strongly in violation of what Tor is for. --Moly 21:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

how do you know what they want?
i question the wording of the statement:

"Some ISPs throttle BitTorrent traffic of their customers because it makes up a large proportion of total traffic and the ISPs don't want to spend money purchasing extra capacity."

in order to know this you'd either need to be a mind reader or have access to the ISP's internal communications. the citation that backs this up seems to be an opinion piece. so what we have is an opinion backed up by an opinion.

like it or not, restricting bittorrent traffic can also be a way of enforcing terms of use policies that place restrictions on inexpensive accounts in order to justify more expensive, less restricted accounts. so there seems to be more than one possible motive for the behavior.

it's harder to document motive than behavior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.214.27 (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

animation
If the image is not animated anymore, than don't say it is. Jidanni (talk) 12:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:BitTorrent.PNG
Image:BitTorrent.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

An Idiot's Guide to BitTorrent
I edited out that lame part of the article since it had no place in a encyclopedia. Check the history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.88.35 (talk) 07:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Notes error
note 14 is bugged, fix anyone? Can't do it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.80.118.158 (talk) 08:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The original reference pointed to The Pirate Bay's legal page, so I just hotlinked to that same page and removed the reference. The hotlink is more useful than the footnote, since the footnote isn't actually citing anything in this case. Here's where the reference problem happened. --Theymos (talk) 15:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Request info on: Scrape-enabled_tracker
I've read this description on some uploads, and I'd like to know what it is. ~ender 2008-03-15 14:58:PM MST
 * A scrape is when the client asks the tracker how many seeds and leechers there are, without getting a full peer list. The client uses this information to determine if it wants to ask the tracker for a full list. Most trackers support scrape requests, but those that don't will only give full peer lists.--Theymos (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i have just got a new laptop windows vista i have been tryin to download all day i do not have the software to support the downloads but have no idea which i need is there anyone out there that can help me please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.73 (talk) 19:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The "plz seed" section
Ignoring for the moment that I'm not sure if the l33t spelling is necessary at all, I find the entire section superfluous and misguided. First, some sort of citation would be nice. Next, in my experience this is not at all what happens: almost all of the time when this sort of situation happens, it is a fraudulent tracker distributing data noise with faked peer/seed numbers. Finally, even if the premise was true, logically it would make no sense: to withhold the last piece and then suddenly give it out would work exactly once, and the amount of people who'd leave the tracker and look for the file elsewhere would be far larger than those who'd profit frmo the one or two seeders who might have left their client running overnight.

I really don't quite understand why this section exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bringa (talk • contribs) 13:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

search.bittorrent.com is broken
http://search.bittorrent.com/ is broken —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.253.159.77 (talk) 08:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
After downloading a program via BitTorrent, how do you then run(and thus use) that program?-- Xp54321 ( Hello! • Contribs ) 23:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The same way as you run (and thus use) a program downloaded through more conventional means. --Skrapion (talk) 19:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Goto preferences, find where you had BT download the files to (downloads tab). OR, right click the torrent, and select 'Open Containing Folder'. It should take you to it.|Triadbeast (talk) 10:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Bittorrent is finished in Canada
Above is vandalism and poorly written. But for some reason I can't remove it. Can someone else please? Kthxbye Anon Coward 217.74.239.201 (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed it --Spacemonkeynz (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Legal Issues
Regarding this line: More recently, the BitTorrent network has been subject to scrutiny by the BPI. --- If anyone knows who the BPI are, could you please provide a link? Danindenver (talk) 16:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)