Talk:Black-tailed deer

Systematics
The article by Wright, et al. (2022) sheds some new light on the systematics of the Columbian black-tailed deer and confirm that it is a subspecies of Odocoileus hemionus. In fact, the Columbian black-tailed deer is the only population which contains the ancestral mitochondria of the mule deer. After the divergence of these two groups, the mule deer hybridized with white-tailed deer capturing their mDNA.

Black-tailed deer and mule deer were isolated during Pleistocene glaciation events until the end of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 0.018 mya, which formed a unique haplogroup of black-tailed deer separate from mule deer which subsequently hybridized with white-tailed deer (Wright et al. 2022). This resulted in a genetic divergence of 7.25% between black-tailed deer and mule deer. Emily A Wright, Emma K Roberts, Roy N Platt, Jacob V Bayouth, Warren C Conway, Robert D Bradley, Mitochondrial capture and subsequent genetic divergence generates a novel haplogroup: evidence from ancient and ongoing hybridization in mule and white-tailed deer, Journal of Mammalogy, 2022;, gyab156, https://doi.org/10.1093/jmammal/gyab156

Bioprofsd (talk) 00:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)Tim Mullican

Untitled
regardless of any other part of this discussion at least the distribution of blacktails should be expanded to British Columbia and Alaska in the article and in particular reference should be made to Coastal Blacktails as distinct (at the very least in appaerance) from more inland (east of the Coast Mountains in BC) blacktails 24.207.127.172 (talk) 05:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

--71.140.21.210 04:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Sucker

There seems to be more than a little confusion as to where the black-tailed deer fits in the grand scheme of things. At the moment if you start out with a search of deer and try to drill down, you never get here.Rvannatta 00:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe this classification is outdated. According to ITIS (Integrated Taxonomic Information System), the Black-tailed Deer, synonymous with the Rocky Mountain Mule Deer, should be Odocoileus hemionus hemionus, not O. h. columbianus. Would someone like to confirm/change this? Thanks. Somerut 21:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

classification of blacktailed deer.
I don't know what is authoritative on this matter. It's my impression that the issue is still in dispute.

It's pretty clear to anyone familiar with the Blacktails found west of the cascades and the mule deer found on the east side that they are not the same. While the markings are similar, there is a major difference in the size with the mule deer being consistently substantially and visibly larger than you ever see of the Westside deer. the difference is far more than can be accounted for indifference in diet.

There may be some other explanation---i.e. interbred with Columbian Whitetails or who knows what, but it is probably not an issue that will be resolved without some serious DNA type research.

Likewise, I didn't write the language that presently exists, nor will I call the Wiki cops if it gets rewritten, though I think it would be prudent to continue to note the historical conflict, at least until a scientific paper can be found addressing the issue, as I at least, believe there is an issueRvannatta 02:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

blacktail deer as opposed to mule deer
I'm aware that there is some confusion still as to whether blacktails represent a separate species or are a subspecies of mule deer. The article seems to blur the lines further as mule deer were originally called black tailed deer by sportsmen. Black tailed deer never lived as far east as Wyoming, but are found exclusively in the Pacific coast ranges from California to Alaska including some of the Aleutian chain. Blacktails are significantly smaller than mule deer, have antler configuration similar to that of white-tailed deer, while having markings and tails similar to that of mule deer. Blacktail are significantly different from the other two species of odocoileus as to be managed separately by wildlife management. 69.29.252.113 (talk) 23:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is safe to disagree, regarding antler configuration. While I have seen a cause for confusion in spikes or three-point blacktails, as the appearance can give one cause to assume a single main beam, in all mature four-point typical buck blacktail deer it is abundantly clear that this is the same configuration as the mule deer; a single beam, split to fork into two main beams which further branches grow from. Whitetail deer have a single main beam in all typical antler growths, with "branches" growing from the main beam of the bone growth. Further, the markings overall on the fur of the blacktail, except for the tail, are nearly identical and appears to be an adaptation to surrounding terrain regarding the differing color phases of the seasons. The greatest visible difference in mule deer and blacktail deer appear to be size and the markings on the rump and tail. May I suggest that you are absolutely correct as well, that blacktail deer are different enough from the other two species to warrant seperate wildlife management practices. I am only a conservation minded hunter, trapper and observer in the woods, deserts, mountains and plains of Oregon and Washington. Thank you for considering my input. WFowlerJr (talk) 16:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Section removed
On 1 March 2011, I removed the following section:
 * "The black-tailed deer was once believed to be a subspecies of the North American mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus), however, recent DNA testing has proven this not to be the case. In Valerius Geist's book Mule Deer Country he explains that by testing the mitochondrial DNA of the three species (blacktail, whitetail and mule deer), researchers have now determined that it was the mating of whitetail does and blacktail bucks that gave rise to the mule deer, and not the opposite as was once suspected, therefore not falling under a subspecies of O. hemionus and rather as its own species O. columbianus."

First, as should be evident from my edit, claiming that the black-tailed deer and mule deer are separate species is a view held by very few recent authorities (claiming that they are widely regarded as separate species certainly is in conflict with WP:NPOV). Secondly, there are some serious factual problems in the above. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the maternal line. It shows absolutely nothing about the father. Consequently, if there have been hybrid events, it can *only* show who the mother is; not the father. Furthermore, it seems to suggests the gender of the parent of hybrids is important for speciation (!!!). It also seems that the person who wrote it believed that introgression equals speciation, but this too is wrong (it can result in speciation, but not necessarily) – and even more so when dealing with mtDNA instead of nDNA. Finally, it the monumental Deer of the world: their evolution, behaviour, and ecology (1998) by Valerius Geist he specifically notes that the black-tailed and mule deer are conspecific, and he provides multiple sources in support of that view. I do not have access to the smaller Mule Deer Country (1999) by him, which apparently is the basis of the above statement, but clearly it needs to be checked by someone, as it seems likely that whoever wrote the above misunderstood a few things. I also removed the following:
 * "It is now believed that millions of years ago the whitetail deer (Odocoileus virginianus) expanded its range down the east coast of the United States, across Mexico, and then back up the west coast, where it eventually evolved into the blacktail deer. Thousands of years later as the recently evolved blacktail's range spread eastward and the whitetail's range again expanded westward, the two deer species again met. At this point, the blacktail bucks displaced the whitetail bucks, and bred the whitetail does. Researchers now believe that it is this hybridization that produced what is now commonly known as the mule deer."

The claim that the whitetail deer as a species is "millions of years old" (wording that to me indicates many million years) is questionable and would make it, by far, the oldest species of deer. Perhaps it should have said whitetail deer lineage? After all, the genus Odocoileus only appeared 3.5-3.8 mya (the oldest known species is the long-extinct O. brachydontus). In addition to this confusion, it appears to rely on the previous section (see my earlier comment on the numerous inaccuracies in that), and it includes a fair level of speculation. For it to be included in the article, it clearly needs a citation and some specifications/corrections. 62.107.209.191 (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your work on the article. I think it is very much improved. WP:RECENT and WP:NOT may apply to content based on recent work that is not widely accepted. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 20:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

An image of the tail would be helpful
An image of the tail would be helpful. FloraWilde (talk) 01:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅. - Bardbom (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

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Size and Weight
Shouldn't a typical doe and buck size and weight be included? The only weight given is for the fawns. Msjayhawk (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2017 (UTC)