Talk:Black Flag (band)/Archive 1

Redirects
This has become the main Black Flag band page; please help to redirect links to here instead of the disambiguation page. --Damaged again (talk) 00:28, 21 November 2002 (UTC)


 * Yes, I created this page and others have, I see, added to it. Wow! What if they had been named The Black Flag Band instead? I welcome people who would like to chat about this with me on this page? are you vegan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.121.124.244 (talk • contribs) 06:35, 10 December 2002 (UTC)


 * Well, Anonymous, if they had been called The Black Flaggers, that might have been bad. But the Black Flag Band sounds more like Huey Lewis and his band, The News. It doesn't sound like hot punk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.216.242 (talk • contribs) 07:14, 13 December 2002 (UTC)


 * Oh, come on! Huey Lewis??? Go to the Muzak article, if there is one. Whjy don't you make it and put your picture on it? You are muzak! Save your breath, pal! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.121.116.233 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 14 December 2002 (UTC)

Rewrites
I wonder who completely erased my original article, which actually described Black Flag's music, and replaced it with this tedious history of who-played-what. That's nice that Brian Migdol was in the group, but who really cares?!? And I'd like to see your source for how Dukowski and Ginn met at UCLA? Ginn went there, it's true. But Panic formed after he graduated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.121.117.214 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 22 December 2002 (UTC)

Now the original article has been returned. I am confused. Copyright problems, perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.121.113.143 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 23 December 2002 (UTC)

NPOV
This page violates the Wikipedia NPOV by making it seem like Black Flag was all Ginn's doing and minimizing the hugely important role of Chuck Dukowski in Black Flag's sound. Ginn was certainly a great guitarist but without Dukowski there would have been no Black Flag, In the later years BF was more dominated by Rollins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.244.24.67 (talk • contribs) 08:33, 15 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I added a paragraph about Dukowski's importance to Black Flag in an attempt to correct the neutrality dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.118.9.14 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 27 September 2004 (UTC)

Vanity edit?
Is there any possible reason to include the reference to a '90s Pittsburgh hardcore band? I'm going to assume this was someone's vanity edit and yank it if nobody objects. --Snarkout (talk) 11:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

(a closeted Homosexual)
I have removed this comment by an anon, but I don't know it doesn't belong. --Mikereichold (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Featured Music Project evaluation

 * Lead: Too long
 * Sales: Probably nothing to say about sales per se, maybe document size of concerts instead?
 * Pictures: Need fair use rationales
 * Audio: Need sound samples
 * References: Formatting problems, probably not exhaustive? no inline cites
 * Format/Style: Major copyediting needed, short paragraphs —Preceding unsigned comment added by TUF-KAT (talk • contribs) 22:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Lead section
The lead section of this article is too long&mdash;too many paragraphs. It should be 3 to 4 paragraphs maximum and should be a summary. Can someone shorten it and move some of the materials to the other sections of the article? If not, I will come back to do it and copyedit, if necessary. --RJN (talk) 07:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think all you need for the opening is the opening paragraph, the "Over the course of the 80's..." paragraph, and a last paragraph that mentions their extensive touring, and the impact it had on emerging bands. The rest can be put in the body of the article. It's a pretty tight article, so maybe someone with better skills than I have should move things around. --Dujang Prang (talk) 02:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Black Flag & anarchy
Seems to be some debate (*1) about the connection (or lack thereof) between Black Flag (band) and Anarchy. I would agree that it overstates matters to describe them as an "anarchist" band in the opening paragraph (originally added 00:54, 25 May 2005 by Gstamets). Black Flag certainly does not belong in the "anarcho-punk" subgenre either (*2) - they did not wear their politics on their sleeves (and though the band often went shirtless, don't forget this was the pre-CD album-sleeve era).

Having said this, it is naive (at best) to suggest there was no connection between the Black Flag and Anarchism. This is why I added back the reference under the "Early History" section (actually, I made the reference point specifically to Anarchist Symbolism rather than Anarchy generally). Whether the connection was intended chiefly for shock value (arguably, all the Sex Pistols ever intended with their Anarchy references) or as a vague reference to left-leaning political tendencies, it would certainly be incorrect to associate Black Flag with right-leaning Nazi-skinhead types. (A mistake that could only come from missing the ironic intent of "White Minority" and ignoring that Puerto Rican Chavo Pederast was frontman when it was originally released on the Jealous Again EP.)

There is ample support for the connection between the anarchist symbol and the band name. In fact, the indications are that the Anarchy reference is primary and the Bug Spray reference is secondary (perhaps even an afterthought). Check out the many press interviews reproduced at http://www.dementlieu.com/~obik/arc/blackflag/press.html (a site which is already listed as an External Link). In the September 6, 1980 interview in Ripper 3, Chuck (Dubkowski) specifically states that it stands for Anarchy and Greg (Ginn) specifically confirms that "it's not the insect killer". In the November 27, 1980 interview in Flipside 22, Chuck elaborates: "It was Ray's (Greg's brother and BF artist) idea originally, they both floated around at the same time, even at the time of Panic we wanted another band called Black Flag which would be more of a threatening thing. The name has the connotation of anarchy, negation and all that." It is not until the March 17, 1981 interview in Capitol Crisis 5 that Dez (Cadena) says "We have a new thing now; Black Flag Kills Ants" and that's only after Chuck again confirms that Black Flag stands for anarchy.

In fact, at least as far as Chuck is concerned, it really might be appropriate to apply the label "anarchist" outright. In the same Marc 17 1981 Capitol Crisis 5 interview, after Dez says that they don't consider themselves a "political band," Chuck adds: "I'm not for or against any government in particular. I figure you've got to fight control, always." Chuck then says: "Political involvement IS the problem" and next confirms that his No-Rules philosphy, noting "My own rules are bad enough. I don't need anybody else's." These sure sound like anarchist sentiments to me. However, again, Chuck is no proselytizer or propagandist, stating earlier in the interview that he doesn't really care if fans wear swastikas and that "I'm not going to tell people what to wear, how to dress, how to act." In short, I agree that the reference and link to Anarchism in the article's opening paragraph was inappropriate.

Pardon my newbie-ism at Wikipedia and my hamfisted first attempt at editing the page. I didn't even know about the history page or realize that there had been recent debate on the Anarchy issue. Learning from my mistake, I decided to make a minimalist change to the actual entry, and add my further suggestions here for incorporation (or not) by a more seasoned editor.

As a sidenote, it might make sense to restore the reference to "hardcore punk" in the opening paraphrase (which was in the article until some idiot changed it to "rock music" - which someone later corrected to "punk rock" which remains to now.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.205.184.207 (talk • contribs) 22:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The "Black Flag Kills Ants" thing came about as a result of Black Flag and Adam and the Ants playing at the same time in nearby clubs. The band had special t-shirts printed up with that slogan on them. This was sometime in '81, I believe, and it's become something of a legend. The whole thing dovetailed nicely with the developing friction between the up-and-coming hardcore crowd and the mellower new wave/new romantic/psuedo goth types. Hardcore is what Black Flag was. Period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.169.112 (talk • contribs) 05:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * In Decline of Western Civilization movie they state there name Black Flag means anarchy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.3.82 (talk • contribs) 06:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Info on covers in Legacy section?
I think the information on covers of Black Flag songs recorded by other bands should be removed from the Legacy section. Black Flag is one of the most popular American punk bands of all time; their songs have been covered, live and in the studio, innumerable times. I think it would suffice to say something to that effect, rather than note a handful of specific (and wholly irrelevant) examples. Thoughts? --Justin Bailey (talk) 16:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Template
I think it would be a god idea to make a Black Flag template just the other bands with templates. --Adamv88 (talk) 23:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE I just started the template. I actually copy and pasted the Minutemen template and and used that as the basis. --Adamv88 (talk) 02:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The template is "done'. Please make any changes you want to it. I was unsure how I should list the members. --Adamv88 (talk) 23:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Infobox picture
What happened to the picture of Rollins that was in the infobox? Looks like it got deleted or something... --Justin Bailey (talk) 11:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations
''Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.''

Members of the WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. --Agne27 (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Genres
This is a tricky one. Someone removed "heavy metal" from the info box, but I restored it and added "hard rock" and "progressive rock" too. I mean, you have My War, which is definitely metal-influenced, and Loose Nut, which is basically a hard rock/hardcore punk fusion record, etc. As for "progressive rock"... the I Can See You 12" and the Process of Weeding Out EP sorta fall under that category. Also, In My Head has prog influences. But I dunno. It's not cut and dry at all. --Justin Bailey (talk) 11:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there seems to be a recurring theme of people removing genres. I've reverted a couple times, but I think it's just going to keep happening. Any suggestions? --Justin Bailey (talk) 02:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible insertion of error?
A certain IP address, 24.149.167.19, has been switching around what Wikipedia says is the order of albums for Black Flag (band); specifically, between Slip It In and Family Man (both released... sometime in 1984). I've tried to look up the specific dates of release on Amazon, on fan sites, etc., but I can't tell whether the version before this IP's edits or the version after is more correct. (Note: I originally reverted this IP on My War, because of the album order on Black Flag (band), but there's a reason why Wikipedia is not a reliable source on Wikipedia. More explicitly: citing articles from Wikipedia isn't going to help with this verification.) Does anyone familiar with the band have any thoughts about this, and could said people possibly rectify latent mistakes? Grace notes T &#167; 03:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that was me. I was trying to start a topic about it after I had already started editing. According to this page, the catalogue numbers state that "Family Man" was released before "Slip It In", while "Annihilate This Week" was released before "Wasted...Again", making it's release earlier than 1990. --24.149.167.19 (talk) 04:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

RHCP's Flea
Wasn't Flea once part of Black Flag? Or did he just perform a few times with the band in the late 70's / early 80's? I have the strongest recollection he did, but I can't find any sources to support this. Does any have a clue? --Soetermans (talk) 22:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm 99% sure that Flea was never involved with Black Flag. I believe Flea was in Fear (another early hardcore act from LA), so maybe that's what you're thinking of? --Justin Bailey (talk) 01:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You're probably right. Since Flea claims to be a huge fan of Black Flag, I must've mixed the two up. Thanks! --Soetermans (talk) 09:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Good article Review of GA status
This article is being reviewed at WP:GA/R for possible delisting of its Good article status. --Teemu08 (talk) 07:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Delisted
See the consensus reached here. If the problems cited are corrected, you may consider resubmitting it for a GA review. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Black Flag's later material is heavy metal?
Okay, call me dumb, but since when were Black Flag in any form considered a heavy metal band? According to their information on Wikipedia, their 1985 and 1986 material is heavy metal. Heavy metal is more like Iron Maiden, not Black Flag. Does anyone care to explain this or if there isn't much to say about this, can this be removed from their profile? --24.188.108.177 (talk) 22:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Anybody can make any edit they want here. I think you really need to consider how to categorize Black Flag's later sound, however. Black Flag circa 1985-1986 weren't really recording hardcore punk anymore. It came closer to certain genres of heavy metal. (Iron Maiden is not the be all and end all of heavy metal.) One could also make an argument that Black Flag during this period was proto-Grunge. In any event, keep in mind that Wikipedia articles need to be based on verifiable, citable sources, not the opinions of Wikipedia editors. (I know most of this article isn't cited to begin with, but adding more stuff just based on one editors opinion isn't going to help things any.) --Peter G Werner (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Should there be a reference to "TV Party" being included on the Repo Man Soundtrack?
The Repo Man Wikipedia article list this song on the soundtrack, but this (Black Flag) article only covers the fact that Estevez sings the song the movie, not that it also appears on the soundtrack. --James brauer (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I would say no. The "references"-type section is getting excessive and since there already is a mention of the song's role in the movie, the fact that it's on the soundtrack isn't particularly noteworthy. Unless some critic has said that that was really important, which I doubt. --Danger (talk) 01:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

how is pettibon's band logo reminiscent of the anarchy symbol?
how is pettibon's band logo reminiscent of the anarchy symbol? Fp cassini (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not, if you're thinking of the "A" with a circle around it as "the" anarchy symbol. However that is not the only symbol that is or has ever been used by anarchists. A black flag is also a symbol for anarchism (see Anarchist symbolism). --IllaZilla (talk) 20:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Discography
I just created an article for their discography. It needs a lot of work though, all I have put in at this point is their studio albums. Tezkag72 (talk) 00:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a good start. I've been working on a similar discography for one of my favorite bands, Rocket from the Crypt, but I've been developing it in my userspace. I suggest you use a featured discography as an example (ie. Metallica discography) and work from there. Also, it's probably pointless to have all of those "chart position" fields in the table for a dozen+ countries, since to the best of my knowledge (and I've done research on this) none of Black Flag's albums actually charted in any country they were released in. I would just cut those fields altogether. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Post-Black Flag.
I added the sentence about Kira Roessler continuing to perform and record in DOS with her ex-husband, Mike Watt of the Minutemen. However, I don't know how to make links, so I would appreciate some one linking "Kira Roessler," "Mike Watt," "Minutemen," and "Dos" to any relevant Wikipedia articles. Thanks. 71.220.29.227 (talk) 05:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Lead sentence
There has been a revert war lately (that I am ashamed to say I have been a part of) over the wording in the lead sentence. About 3 and a half weeks ago, Tim010987 edited the lead paragraph to say:

Black Flag was an American rock band formed in 1977 in Hermosa Beach, California. The band was established largely as the brainchild of Greg Ginn: the guitarist, primary songwriter and sole continuous member through multiple personnel changes. They are widely considered to be one of the first hardcore punk bands alongside Middle Class, Bad Brains, Discharge and Minor Threat.

This was in response to a discussion that Tim and I had at Talk:Misfits (band) where, based partially on WP:LEAD and partially on the difficulty of summing up a band's style in 1 or 2 words, it was decided that aiming for generality in the first sentence was the best solution, with specific genres/subgenres/styles described in subsequent sentences (as above). The most relevant portion of WP:LEAD considered was "Opening sentence", which encourages us to "give a concise definition: where possible, one that puts the article in context for the nonspecialist." The idea here is that nonspecialists, ie readers who are not knowledgeable about genres and subgenres of music, will be better served by having the lead sentence say "rock", which is a more general term and puts the band in context within the wider field of music, and then describing their more specific genres and styles in the following sentences.

Since then, the genre in the opening sentence has been edited, reverted, and changed back-and-forth between "rock", "punk rock", and "hardcore punk". As one can see from the "Genre" discussion further up this page, which pertained to the genres listed in the infobox, Black Flag's music is difficult to describe in just 1 or 2 words. It is well-documented (though I admit that the article itself needs further improvement including some kind of Style section to reflect this) that Black Flag's music changed over the course of their career and incorporated various genres such as punk rock, hardcore, jazz, sludge metal, spoken word, etc. It is therefore my opinion that opening the article with "Black Flag was a rock band...", and then describing their more specific genres/styles in the subsequent sentences of the lead, provides the best context to our readers. Given the recent edit warring which has resulted in the article being protected, I would like to ask for other editors' opinions so that we can form a better consensus. --IllaZilla (talk) 06:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The user Tim010987 subsequently changed it back to "punk band" and even reverted your change when you attempted to insert "rock band". . IllaZilla, you are the only person who wants this change.  You are totally outside of WP:CONSENSUS on this. --Oakshade (talk) 23:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Does change of lead-in sentence have consensus?
From the article's creation in 2002, the lead sentence has designated this band a "punk band" or a "hardcore punk band". In December 14, 2008, one user changed the designation to "rock band". That user soon self-revered the content back to "punk band". However, one other user, User:IllaZilla, and only that one user has continuously reverted the designation back to "rock band", this despite at least 4 editors attempting to keep the designation as "punk band." IllaZilla keeps reverting them. . Not only has there been community exposure for over 6 years has demonstrated WP:CONSENSUS has settled on the "punk" designation, but every user except one has wanted to keep it that way. There is absolutely nothing close to WP:CONSENSUS to change the lead sentence designation from "punk band" to "rock band."

As there was edit warring, the page got locked. --Oakshade (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Since there is dispute about the issue, I have started a thread here in the hopes of building consensus, rather than simply relying on de facto "it's always been that way" consensus. I would specifically like to hear from Tim010987, who was the one who initially changed it to "rock" and then subsequently changed his mind, to see how he feels about it now. All of this "every user except one has wanted to keep it that way" stuff is rather disengenuous, making it seem as if there are a large number of editors objecting to this change: there have only been a few editors involved in this at all – myself, Tim010987, and Oakshade, plus a couple of one-off edits by anonymous IPs. I'm making a good-faith effort here to get a broader range of opinions on the issue. Simply because it has said "hardcore" or "punk rock" for a long time does not mean it can never be re-worded or a new consensus cannot be formed, since of course consensus can change. We need to discuss this to determine what wording the editors actually working on this article can agree to, and the fact that it has been one way for 6 years means very little in the case of a B-class article that clearly needs improvement. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * IllaZilla, you are free to build a consensus for your desired change, but you have to build that consensus first before you make and insist upon that change. If there's determination that consensus has changed, so be it.  But so far you are the only user in the 6-plus year history who wants to change the designation in the lead sentence. --Oakshade (talk) 02:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * IllaZilla, I appreciate your previous comment about giving readers some context with the words "rock band." However, I'd say more people are aware of the context of "punk band" and those who are not can simply click the link to the relevant article to gain more context. There must be a balance between giving all relevant information and keeping the article concise. I would err on the side of brevity. Thus my vote: "american punk rock band". --Satch69 (talk) 19:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree with the statement more people are aware of the context of "punk band". That is like saying "more people are aware of the context of ungulate than they are of mammal" (ungulates being several groups of mammals). Invariably, more people are aware of general terms than they are of specific ones. Your statement seems to totally contradict the meaning of specificity vs. the meaning of generality. To a nonspecialist, general encyclopedia reader, ie. someone who is not versed in various genres of music, a general term is undoubtedly easier to understand. "Rock band" is general enough to be immediately understood by a majority of readers, but specific enough not to be ambiguous. --IllaZilla (talk) 04:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My vote is for: "American punk band." I originally agreed with IllaZilla's idea that lead-ins should be very general, so I originally changed it to "rock band" but the more I thought about it the weirder "Black Flag is an American rock band" sounded. It's awkward. The exact same thing goes for the Misfits page where IllaZilla also contends it should say "rock band." I vote that both the Misfits and Black Flag pages should say "American punk band." --Tim010987 (talk) 09:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I second that. Mainly because they were! And that is all I am saying because normally I don't get involved with genre wars. Too much effort - no net gain. – B.hotep •talk• 19:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Like so many other things, this particular "tempest in a teacup" comes down to not using our own observations, but relying on sources. I know without even checking that the vast majority of sources would refer to Black Flag as a punk band. They practically defined the LA punk sound. "American punk band" works for me. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As consensus in both edit history and this RfC has indicated that only one user wants the introduction designation of this band as "rock band" as opposed to "punk rock band" or "hardcore punk rock band" (not to mention all reliable sources refers to this band as a "punk band" as indicated by Beeblebrox), the intro has been reverted back to "punk rock band" and I'll be closing this RfC. --Oakshade (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the Allmusic template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links: --CactusBot (talk) 19:04, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A2qmtk60x9krj


 * J04n(talk page) 22:06, 1 January 2011 (UTC)