Talk:Black Friday (shopping)/Archive 1

To Do
I think the article is much stronger now, but there is certainly more that could be done:

1. What is the history of Black Friday? We now have good information as to the history of the term, but not as to the history of the day after Thanksgiving as the start of the Christmas season. It's clearly had that status for some time, since Roosevelt famously moved Thanksgiving in order to start the Christmas shopping season earlier.

2. Is there any truth to the claim that Black Friday has the heaviest customer traffic? I'm skeptical, but I don't have ready proof that it is false.
 * I found some proof, but it's only had the most traffic in 2003 and 2005 (and possibly some other years before 2001). -- 129.93.191.117

3. The claim is sometimes made that, even if Black Friday is not now the heaviest shopping day of the year, it once was. This has not been true for at least 15 - 20 years; is there verifiable information as to whether it was true before that? John M Baker 23:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

4. References needed for the Black Friday on the Internet and Controversy sections. John M Baker 20:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Current Research?
"This origin is unlikely to be correct, as current research indicates that the heavy traffic origin is well-attested and the black ink theory was not put forward until several years later." Does anyone have a link to this "current research"? -- 129.93.191.117 2:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's implicit in the article: References to heavy traffic date back to 1975, to the earliest references to Black Friday (in this sense), and nobody suggests that Black Friday has anything to do with black ink until 1982 at the earliest.  John M Baker 02:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The claim above implies much more than that. "The heavy traffic origin is well-attested" implies that numerous reliable sources indicate that the 1975 article is in fact the first known use of "Black Friday" in this sense. The article alone isn't enough to prove that. Also, no proof is provided that "the black ink theory was not put forward until several years later" because the claim earlier in the article that the accounting meaning has been traced back to a 1982 news broadcast is unsupported.  If you can find a reference establishing that, then you can make the above claim.  Otherwise, there is nothing to support it. -- 129.93.191.117 20:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Revised in response to this comment. John M Baker 20:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of disambiguous text
I did an extensive edit of the piece. I'm not sure if the unsourced article warning is still needed, but decided to leave it in for now. Changes made include clarifying that Black Friday is definitely not the busiest shopping day of the year (although, as a matter of editorial conservativism, I left in the unsourced and somewhat doubtful assertion that it may have the heaviest customer traffic); removing the incorrect assertions that Christmas Eve or Boxing Day may be contenders for the title of busiest shopping day; and revising information about its origin to fit the known facts. I also removed the following passage:

<>

"In fact, that *New York Times* article has nothing really to do with "the Friday after Thanksgiving," but instead describes diplomatic reaction (or lack thereof) on Friday, 1 December 1922 to the formal announcement in Lausanne of a decree calling for the expulsion of Greeks from Turkey." http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0611D&L=ADS-L&P=R1630&I=-3 John M Baker 07:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In furtherance of John's actions, I added a disambiguous statement at the top of the article. John, instead of deleting misplaced, but valid factual text, try to relocate it to the proper article(s). -- Jreferee 15:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a good point, but I don't think there is a proper article for this 1922 Black Friday. It may well have been a nonce-use by the New York Times.  John M Baker 18:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Googlebloged
We've been googlebloged! I think there should be a template for this somewhere (a la slashdotted), but until then, you can see the link at http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/11/dont-drop-while-you-shop.html. There are a couple other articles I've seen Google link to, and I'd love to tag those as well. - Mys  e  ku rity  23:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Cool! I hope they saw the version without the spam links. For what it's worth, I believe there was recent discussion (probably on WP:TFD) about generalising the "slashdotted" template so that it could be applied in situations like this; I don't recall if any action was taken. &mdash; HorsePunchKid &rarr;&#x9F9C; 2005-10-24 01:00:55Z

Categories?
The category list is messed up -- it looks like this in my browser (Safari): "Categories: ‪Black days‬ | ‪| Christmas-linked holidays‬ | ‪FridaysDistribution, retailing, and wholesaling" I tried to fix it but it hasn't changed. There's nothing I can see in the code that would cause this... Anyone know what's up? ManekiNeko | Talk 06:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up: The problem doesn't occur in Firefox. Just in Safari. This is very strange. I'll revert the change I made as it doesn't seem to make any difference. ManekiNeko | Talk 07:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Could we have a section on the media's fueling the fires of Black Friday? There are news stories with photos online of Black Friday that could be incorporated. A clearer mentioning of the sites that leak sales before the official statements are made by the compaines is warranted as this is the main way shoppers plan their shopping for Black Friday.

Didn't the Cabbage Patch Fever of the 1980s start on Black Friday as people vied to pay astronomical prices on these then rare dolls? Historial items like this should be included as part of the Black Friday culture. -October 2007

uhm .. Hello
this wasnt made clear on the article page nor on the discussion list, but why is no one making a case for why the bloody hell days/events/spectacles that fall on the negative are referred to as 'black', there clearly is an undertone here that implies the race and the people associated. it is very insulting, there should be an a paragraph atleast on the front page stating why these things begin with the term black.


 * I don't detect that undertone. You may be interested in looking up the definition of black in a dictionary. The word has many negative meanings that have nothing to do with race and which predate (by about 300 years!) use of the term to refer specifically to African Americans. &mdash; HorsePunchKid &rarr;&#x9F9C;  2005-11-29 06:33:38Z


 * Yep, I'm pretty sure that black was associated with death (and night, and darkness, and therefore by proxy also the unknown) in the Western world long before it was used as slang for skin-color. Please don't back-define these things. I'm pretty sure the person above HorsePunchKid was a troll, but just for the record, you know. :P Runa27 15:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No. "Black" used here refers to ledger numbers. Red is bad; black is good. The day is called "Black Friday" because most businesses can pull out of the red (negative/losses) and get into the black (positive/profits) on this day because there are so many people buying. Black is a good thing! What do you mean by "fall on the negative" anyway? Maybe you've never done accounting. Black is always good and positive when dealing with numbers.


 * Actually, it sounds kind of racist of you to assume that all things black are negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.254.128.141 (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wake up!
The term "black" is not racial or negative. It simply refers to profits. When you see red that means a store is not making profit. But black means that store is making a profit. Most stores get into the "black" on Black Friday.ЄИЄЯפЇЄ 20:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Target Corporation: Black or Green?
Are we sure Target Corporation calls this Green Friday? I work for a SuperTarget store and we've always called it Black Friday. I've never head of a Green Friday prior to reading this article. 68.226.61.4 05:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Target and Green Friday
I am a manager at SuperTarget and Target Corporation absolutely does NOT use the phrase green friday. Any in-company literature or communications refer to this day as Black Friday. I have never once heard it called green friday. I'm going to remove Target from that list.

I'm a GSTL in a New England store. When I used the term Black Friday, I was admonished by my ETL-GS and my ETL-HR. Which part of the country are you from? It is possible there's fractured usage.


 * I work in a SuperTarget in Omaha, Nebraska. I remember the ETLs referring to this day as Black Friday in 2005 and 2004; however now that I think about it I do remember an ETL blurting out in 2003 "This isn't Black Friday, this is Green Friday:  We don't have red ink here" but I don't know if they were being serious or sarcastic.  Perhaps it was once called Green instead of Black.  What year were you admonished?  I'll try to stay away from New England if people are like that over there.  68.226.61.4 05:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that Green Friday is typically a term used more in retail corporate offices than in the actual store locations (and as opposed to just at Target). My speculation is that this is because the corporate offices are so removed from the chaos of the front lines but remain very focused on watching the sales numbers coming in from the first big sales weekend.  I'm not sure how to effectively verify a source for the usage of Green Friday other than hearsay, but this has been my experience from both working for a corporate retail office and from friends in the same positions from other companies.  Would it be possible to include the reference and tag it as needing a citation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itatton (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * FYI, I just came back from a job interview at a Toys R Us store and they called it "Green Friday". They also said it was plenty busy that day, even given the economy and that it seems people would be inclined to shop at a certain other store.  I also saw a notice that they make around 50% (forgot actual number) of their entire yearly sales in the 6 weeks near Christmas.  If someone wants, I can ask them the reasons for "Green Friday", though it should be noted this is original research.  The other retail store I've worked at did call it "Black  Friday". Jason McHuff (talk) 02:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Changes
Actually the use of this term goes back well beyond 2000. There are lots of newspaper articles using the term back in the 1980's.

The internet use of ad scans also goes back well beyond 2005. The DMCA threats alone go back to 2002 and the ads were posted online prior to that.

--Jwikipro 02:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection
I requested semi-protection over at Requests_for_page_protection. My reasoning is as follows: "Article has received a bevy of spam and general vandalism beginning on about November 20th, and is becoming very hard to manage and keep clean. Sudden influx is likely due to the fact that Black Friday is this Friday, so I'm sure the protection could be removed on the weekend or so. Thanks for your consideration." --Czj 04:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
Black Friday is the day after tomorrow. A few pictures of people lined up outside stores, or some sort of chaos within a store should visually demonstrate this article quite clearly. These pictures should be easy to obtain, but I'll be working. Is anyone up for it? :o) tiZom(2¢)  23:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, as if I'm going anywhere near a mall today... If you work retail, you could always just hold up the camera in the store and say, "Smile for Wikipedia!" --PatrickD 15:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Reference for this?
"Most contemporary uses of the term focus instead on the theory that retailers traditionally operated at a financial loss for most of the year (January through November)". I would be surprised if this were true. I know the holiday period is one of the biggest for retailers but surely half-year reports would regularly be losses (with full year being profits) of retail stocks if this were the case?

I think reference to the fact that the holiday season is a very big season for retail and that Black-Friday is consider to be the accountancy meaning of 'in the black' is reasonable, but maybe this is a little too much without reference? ny156uk 10:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added a quote from a 1990 newspaper article specifying the accounting meaning. Note that this merely ascribes the term to the supposition that retailers operate in the red until Black Friday; it is not authority for the claim that retailers in fact operate in the red until then, nor do I suppose that to be generally the case (though there are probably some for whom it is true).  Unfortunately, I don't have the text of the 1982 ABC News report.  John M Baker 15:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Black Friday is my bitch
Why does the phrase "Black Friday is my bitch" appear in this article?


 * my guess is vandalism 131.230.146.135 (talk) 01:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Other Countries
Since Black Friday is defined as the day after Thanksgiving, it's a uniquely American day. What heralds in the Christmas season in other countries, and causes retailers to shift into high gear? Is it the same day? It might be interesting to add that info to the article. --208.204.155.241 15:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

National Sleep In Day
Another protest to Black Friday is 'National Sleep In Day'. I think this is worth noting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakewilliams (talk • contribs) 21:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, if you have good support. I haven't heard of the day myself.  Are there newspaper articles, etc., that talk about it?  John M Baker 22:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A quick search shows that it was created as a marketing campaign for Ebay. It's not real. --Ben James Ben 00:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Date Clarification
Black Friday is defined as the day after Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is defined as the fourth Thursday in November. Therefore, Black Friday can also be defined as the fourth Friday of November. People who live outside the United States are not likely to know when Thanksgiving is. Adding the second Black Friday date definition will make the article better, so people can know when the day occurs without having to look up Thanksgiving. For this reason, I'm re-adding the "fourth Thursday in November" definition). --Ben James Ben 13:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... Black Friday is not always the fourth Friday of November. If the month happens to begin on a Friday, then Black Friday is actually the fifth Friday of November. I would like to keep the date clarification in the article, but it will need to be re-worded to be correct. "The day after the fourth Thursday of November" is a bit awkward, but it might be the most accurate way of describing it. Perhaps someone else could improve it? --Ben James Ben 17:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In 2002 November began on a friday. It will happen again in 2013 TheHungryTiger 02:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I attempted to style it after the description of Election Day (United States). It's defined as the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November. --Meadowbrook 21:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The trouble is that this language makes it sound like it's a stand-alone holiday, which is not the case. I've tried some new language.  John M Baker 04:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * O.K., the new language, which I think works, is "Since Thanksgiving falls on the fourth Thursday in November, Black Friday may be as early as the 23rd and as late as the 29th day of November." At least twice, people have changed this to "as late as the 30th day of November."  It probably won't do any good, but let me explain why that is wrong.  Since Thanksgiving is on the fourth Thursday, the earliest date it can fall is November 22 (three weeks plus one day) and the last date it can fall is November 28 (the completion of four weeks).  Black Friday is the next day.  Note that a date range of November 23 - 30 would be a range of 8 days, which clearly is too many.  John M Baker 14:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats exactly what is happening this year (2007). The 30th is on a friday, but is not black friday because thanksgiving is the previosu week. TheHungryTiger 02:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As I wrote below, Thanksgiving in the U.S. falls on the third Thursday of November. The article starts off with erroneous information. If it fell on the fourth Thursday, next Thursday, November 29, would be Thanksgiving in the U.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.251.144.95 (talk) 12:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * By statute, Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday in November. 5 U.S.C. 6103.  If you will look at a calendar, you will see that November 22, the date on which Thanksgiving fell this year, is indeed the fourth Thursday in November.  John M Baker (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

History section
(Copied from the To Do section above)

1. What is the history of Black Friday? We now have good information as to the history of the term, but not as to the history of the day after Thanksgiving as the start of the Christmas season. It's clearly had that status for some time, since Roosevelt famously moved Thanksgiving in order to start the Christmas shopping season earlier.


 * I wrote a quick something on this. I admit its not very good however. Somebody please edit and cleanup? TheHungryTiger 01:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Or not. Someone deleted it. Does anyone else wanna give a try at writing a 'history' part? Or shoudl this just get left undone? 07:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.121.174 (talk)

(The History section added to the article, deleted from the article, added to the talk page, but subsequently deleted. Re-added to the talk page for clarity.)

"So how the heck did this day get to be the 'official' start of the shopping season? Well, ya see, it all started with the idea of Santa Claus parades. Now ya cant just hold a Santa Clause parade any time you feel like it. You gotta have a bigger reason than that to hold a parade. So usualy it is merged with a parade celebrating Thanksgiving. Santa is just stuck on at the end of the parade with the idea that 'Santa has arrived' or 'Santa is just around the corner'.

Now in the beginning, in the late 19th century and early 20th century, a whole bunch of these Santa parades / Thanksgiving day parades were sponsored by departnment stores. There is the Toronto Santa Claus Parade sponsored by Eaton's and the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade sponsored by Macy's. The department stores would use this as a gimmick to launch a big advertising push for holiday gift sales. Eventually it just became an unwritten rule that no store would try doing Christmas advertising before the parade was over. Therefore, the day after thanksgiving became the day when the shopping season officially started.

Later on, the fact that this marked the official start of the shopping season led to some majorly screwed up shit. In 1939, America was suffering through the great depression. Retail shops would have liked to have a longer shopping season, but nobody wanted to be the one to start advertising before thanksgiving. So president Roosevelt, in bed with big business in the way those evil republicans always are, moved the date for thanksgiving up a week and that really screwed up a lot of folks holiday plans. Folks started referring to the change as Franksgiving because they were so pissed off by the change.

In modern times it dosen't much matter any more. Retail outlets are advertising Christmas earlier and early. Totally ignoring the 'official start'. For some this is even before halloween.

Or at least thats my theory on how this became the official start of the shopping season. But who knows, I could be wrong. Edit this as you wish."

(end of added section)

What a joke. Erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theseven7 (talk)


 * Instead of deleting it, why not write your own? The very first item on the 'to do' list for this page is to write a history section. Or do you believe that having absoutly nothing there is somehow better than having at least somethign so that others can edit it? 07:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.121.174 (talk)

To make discussion easier, I made some major edits of this talk page, moving all discussion into this section, signing unsigned comments, and reverting deleted text. --Ben James Ben 16:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The link to the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, and other Thanksgiving parades, is a good point, and I've added a reference to the Macy's event to the article. John M Baker 03:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Im not totaly sure if that is accurate however. It seems logical enough to me. Macys does use that as their kickoff to the 'oficial' start of the shoping season. But I am not sure if that is THE origin. Research is needed. TheHungryTiger 01:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think the language implies that it necessarily is THE origin. It says "at least since."  As the Macy's Day Parade article shows, the first modern Macy's parade already had Santa Claus and portrayed Thanksgiving as the kickoff of the Christmas shopping season.  I think this is enough that a fact warning isn't necessary.  John M Baker 03:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I erased it because I don't know enough to elaborate. I believe that erasing that entire section was better than leaving it, it was an example of everything Wiki isn't. It was written like a website, not like an encyclopedia. I'm all for all info imaginable on Wiki, but not like that. I like the section now Theseven7 23:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. If you don't know enough to elaborate then how about just taking the information that *IS* there and rewrite it, edit it, and change the wording into a form that is acceptable? TheHungryTiger 01:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the decision to remove the text. Unfortunately, the quality of the text was so extreme that it could easily have been mistaken as vandalism or someone playing a joke.  Yes, normally it is better to leave text in and simply edit it to improve quality.  However, in this case, the text was in a condition where it not ready to be published.  The article was better off with the text removed.  It can always be added again after it has been improved offline. --Ben James Ben 17:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, Thanksgiving in the U.S. falls on the third Thursday of November. Lincoln originally chose the fourth Thursday, but FDR changed it to the third Thursday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.251.144.95 (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Really? I guess everyone in America made the mistake of celebrating it yesterday, 11/21/2007, which was the FOURTH Thursday of November.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.60.80 (talk) 14:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here in California I and many other in the 'Trades' have always refered to 'Black Friday' as a payday on Friday with the day off....I believe this is also the basis for the "Steely Dan" song of the same name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.106.4.113 (talk) 13:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Adscan external links
Should external links to adscan sites be listed in the article? I've been removing them, under the guideline that they are commercial links. Plus, there seem to be many new sites that have popped up over the past few years. --Ben James Ben 13:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If people want to learn more about black friday, the external sites are helpful. Is there way to just list the top x? or something like that? Daniel.Cardenas 01:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Since no one objected I'm going to add a link- IRiteGud, Yes? 00:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't. The problem is that this tends to lead to unrestricted commercial links.  John M Baker (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Something the article forgot to mention
the reason it's such a big shopping day is that so many people have friday off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 15:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Pic
should someone add a picture? I also might be able to get one later this week by holding up a camera and saying "Smile for Wikipedia" Superworms (talk) 17:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A picture would be great. We need one.  John M Baker (talk) 03:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll see if i can get one on early friday mouring, or mabey thursday night Superworms (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Why it is called “Black Friday”
Copyright infringement text deleted. This was copied verbatim from The City Desk, which describes its contents as "fictional urbanism." John M Baker (talk) 05:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * My father used the term 'Black Friday' to refer to a busy Friday in the hospital but specifically to refer to Friday the 13th (of any month), in 1970. AFAIK, it had no association with Thanksgiving. It did not appear to be a new term at the time.150.101.166.15 (talk) 04:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Black Friday in Germany and Austria
Recent edits have added assertions that Black Friday is a shopping event in Germany and Austria, as well as the United States. Is there any basis for these? They seem doubtful on their face, and I'm inclined to remove these claims, unless support for them emerges. If these claims are true, then of course there should be edits made to the remainder of the article. John M Baker (talk) 18:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hearing no objections, I have removed the claims. John M Baker (talk) 02:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

What day is Black Friday in 2008? 2009? 2010?
I came to the wikipedia page looking for this info, not the calculation or the range that it might fall into, but the actual dates when Black Friday would fall. Could we include that info in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.43.205 (talk) 17:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Infobox with this information added. John M Baker (talk) 05:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Black Friday is a Holiday?!
When I first saw it I thought it was a mere sale that everyone held at the same time. Is this categorization proper for this article?  Marlith  (Talk)   17:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to the categorization of Black Friday as a Christmas-linked holiday, I'm inclined to think that it isn't a problem. Black Friday is not a true holiday, of course, but neither are several of the other so-called Christmas-linked holidays, such as Christmas Sunday or Christmastide.  John M Baker (talk) 19:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Black Friday Violence
I think we need a section on Black Friday and violence; every year, I read at least one or two articles about people being injured or killed, be it by direct means (fighting) or indirect (being trampled to death). --PeanutCheeseBar (talk) 17:10, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, trampled to death &mdash; chandler &mdash; 20:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Crazy stuff, I had to look up what this "black friday" thing was. However, that same link as in above comment: "trampled to death" says that the pregnant woman miscarrying was "unfounded" so someone should probably fix that or add a note. Peterius (talk) 01:41, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll edit this section if that's ok with everyone. I want to include the name and a few other details about the man who was trampled to death. Also, based on the NYT article and all the others I've read, the woman did not miscarry. The articles I've read about the Toys R Us shooting say that the two people were not fighting over merchandise. I'd like to delete that topic from the article, as it is only a coincidence that the shooting happened on Black Friday. user:Chris Fallis
 * If the rumor was unfounded, perhaps the entire reference should be deleted altogether. Does it add anything to bring up a rumor only to dismiss it? Tim Riches, Brampton, Ontario (talk) 16:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe keep the Toy 'R' Us story but add a note that it may have just been a coincidence. That was Toy 'R' Us' official statement about the incident, but obviously they'd like to keep good PR too 198.166.55.221 (talk) 20:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Chris, I'm not calling attention to what happened just this year; it seems to happen EVERY year (read my original comment that started this section), and it's noteworthy because it is a threat to the safety of others, despite the fact that we're supposed to be "civilized". PeanutCheeseBar (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Cyber Monday section
What idiot felt it necessary to link to the BLack Friday article IN the Black Friday article? I'd change it so it wasn't linked but the page seems protected from anon-edits. Too may wiki-nazis around to bother registering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.6.18 (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Circular link removed. IP vandalism is a major problem for this article at this time of year, hence the semi-protection, which will expire shortly.  John M Baker (talk) 23:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Lock?
This page is locked? I want to correct the type "There even one case in Palm Springs," but cannot. --TexanRaconteur (talk) 06:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

uhh what do you mean over a item it wasnt an item
uhh what do you mean it was over an item it wasn't over an item "Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sims80 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Corrected
I have fixed the above-mentioned discrepancy as well as several others in that same paragraph. Lumbergh (talk) 07:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Palm Desert
Why do you guys have bullshit locked up so no one can fix it?

THESE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT EVERYONE INVOLVED SAID THE PALM DESERT INCIDENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHOPPING! IT WAS OVER A PERSONAL GRUDGE BECAUSE THEIR GIRLFRIENDS GOT INTO A FIST FIGHT AND IT MAY BE GANG RELATED BUT IT HAD NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH A TOY!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.158.61 (talk) 15:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

History of Canadian Thanksgiving
In the history section, Toronto was using in a Thanksgiving reference. As far as I know, the Canadians celebrate their Thanksgiving a month ahead of the US. All the logic on accounting turning profitable a month earlier is no longer convincing anymore. Since this section has no reference, can someone check the validity of this section? Kowloonese (talk) 14:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Pink Friday
Why isn't Pink Friday mentioned at all? It is a very common term used in advertising in the last couple of years. It is just a variation of "Black Friday" used by businesses that still expect to lose money despite the sales boost. So that are not turning from red to black, just red to pink meaning they are only losing less and not really profitable. Kowloonese (talk) 14:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Pink Friday seems to be a charitable promotion of TigerDirect.com and CompUSA; I don't see much support for the theory that it's about losing less money. I'm not convinced of its notability, but if you can find rferences showing it to be notable, then go ahead and add it.  John M Baker (talk) 15:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Origin
I did a fairly big re-edit of the origins section. There is a heck of a lot of debate and editing comming down on both sides of the issue so I gave each theory its own spot. I also moved the "worker" refrence here as that is a direct refrence to what is or is not the origin of the word.TheHungryTiger 12:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Where in the world did the term "Black Friday" come from? I'm been alive for 29 years living in a large city and I swear I have never heard of the day after Thanksigiving referred as "Black Friday"!

>>Yes, you're right. The Orwellians threw this into the mainstream during the 2005 holiday season. No one ever used the phrase to describe 'crazy day after T'giving' until 2005.... despite what the wikinazis and the Orwellians want you to think. I can't believe my constant carping on this is always deleted. Wikipedia should be a place to FIGHT the Orwellians, not be co-opted by them. (I (crd721) would like to add that the article was created in 2003, so obviously people did use the term before 2005.)


 * I've heard the term 'black friday' used for many, many years.  I'm surprised that some people have only heard it recently. --208.204.155.241 14:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the article refers to "Black Tuesday", but then a later paragraph (under "Green Friday") refers to "Black Thursday". Which is correct? --Anonymous, 19:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I've always considered it the worst day of the year to work in retail - I always tied Black Monday with Black Friday. Lilith-Darkmoon 09:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * In the restraunt biz, we did the same thing by calling mothers day "black sunday". Its the workers that came up with the nickname, not the beancounters.

This is the first I heard that "Black" came from an accounting term. I had assumed retail employees made up the term "Black Friday" because it's the worst day of the year to have to work in retail. I don't have a source for this, just puttin' it out there. thx1138 18:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Same here. Until I read this page, I just assumed "black" referred to the frustration many shoppers feel at the overwhelming amount of traffic -- both automobile and pedestrian -- on this day. Further, should it be mentioned in the article that the reason so many people are even available to shop on this day is because their employers give them that Friday off work? If Thanksgiving weren't on a Thursday, I doubt there would even be a Black Friday. "Green Friday" to me sounds like a political or environmental notion, so I'm not sure why big stores like Toys 'R' Us would promote this over "Black Friday" (in fact, until I read the description, I assumed Green Friday was referring to Buy Nothing Day). --Birdhombre 20:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dito. Im prone to think that whoever put in the frefence to "operating in the black" did so as a prank. Naturaly, no retail store coudl ev er posible operate in the red for 11 months out of the year without going out of business. The term "black" is a spoof of "black thursday" the stock market crash. ..... I m goign to go ahead and change this.
 * This usage was in a NYT article here (RSS Link) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/business/25cnd-retail.html?ex=1290574800&en=b3b78e02575a668a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss --24.147.68.89 22:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You do realise that the reporter who wrote that article probably just got the info from looking at the wiki-page.
 * If the operating losses during the rest of the year aren't that severe, then yes it is possible: Say for instance a store loses $1,000 per month from January to the end of November but makes a $24,000 profit during the Christmas shopping season, that store makes a profit of $13,000 on the year even though for 11 months it was eating red ink left, right and center. But hopefully my most recent edit is more publicly acceptable, by mentioning the double meaning without making it sound like that was the primary meaning. :) Iceberg3k 17:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

It's called Black Friday because retailers dread this day because it determines the tone of the rest of the shopping season; poor sales on Black Friday tend to indicate it will be a poor Christmas Season. Like the stock market crash, Black Friday "makes or breaks" the retailers' holiday season. That's why retailers dread today.


 * Well, when I was working retail we all did dread this day. But it was because every rude, inconsiderate, asshole of a customer was in the store that day. It had nothing to do with the stores bottom line.

I believe the term has to do with the amount of black ink used in printing all the newspaper advertisements that come out the Friday after Thanksgiving.

The way I learned about Black Friday had to do with the "Black ink, red ink" thing, and I first heard it being it explained this way on newstalk radio. A retailer hopes to turn all of their red ink into black ink on that weekend, and if they don't, then of course they will fail. 68.226.61.4 02:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The term "Black Friday" was coined because of the number of Traffic accidents/fatalities due to the large number of people traveling on this day. I learned this back in Driver's Education class in High School(Over 10 years ago). Has anyone else heard this theory?

Hey maybe this is way off, but there is a phrase that is used in Ireland (less so nowadays because it can be considered racist by people who aren't irish) that is "Black with people" which is a translation from Irish( "Dubh le daoine"). This simply means a place was packed, jammed etc with people. eg: it was so sunny yesterday that the beach was black with people. The phrase has nothing to do with black people and doesnt really make sense but there you go. Is there any way that this could be the black friday phrase came from?

76.104.254.127 (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC) This section seams realy biased to one opinion. The second theory to the origin of the term seams to be completely based on how this theory is wrong, and how "This is a false assumtion." Does this realy need to be there? It seems ok to just put this as another theory instead of trying to disprove it, as this is an encyclopedic artice. Please share your thoughts.

I cringe whenever I hear "Black Friday" on the news or read it in the paper. I want to ask if everyone can really be so stupid at times, or just ambivalent to how phrases are constructed, used, stolen, then used again to achieve a different end or purpose. I remember working in retail in the 1980s, and we all used the term "Black Friday" in a negative way, to express dread over having to work on that day. The day after Thanksgiving was the unofficial start of the holiday shopping season, and we would brace ourselves for the throngs of shoppers due to arrive. Without exception, It was bound to be a long, exhausting, and stressful day, hence the term "Black Friday." Back then, no one ever mentioned "Black Friday" in a positive way, and certainly it was not widely used (as it is now) to mean a return to profitability. It was retail employees, or people working in other professions that required them to deal with the public, who who adopted and used this term originally. But it was stolen or "taken back" by the media and the merchants in recent years to mean something completely different.

The origin section is not in context with the original article about the shopping day. Any reference to other use of the term belongs on another page. The "shopping holiday" is a retail term and while the traffic context is valid, it has usually meant (in the Northeast, origin of the term) the store made money for the year. Get it right and stop spreading misinformation and urban legend by way of the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.102.194.235 (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

No actual definition
Someone needs to define Black Friday in more detail for us non-Americans. What sort of preperation is there? Are there long queues earlier in the day? What is the increase in volume? Why do they do this for one day? How much stock is left at the end? etc etc.
 * I guess it's rather hard to define, since it's not really an organized event. Because Thanksgiving is on a Thursday, many white collar employers will also close on the Friday after, or employees may take a vacation day. With Christmas being almost a month away at that point, that Friday has become a big shopping day.


 * Even 15 years ago, one might refer to this as the "start" of the Christmas shopping season, but I don't think it is anymore, as some stores are putting up Christmas decorations even before Halloween. Newspapers on Thanksgiving day will be stuffed full of ad slicks from stores offering various deals for Friday. Often these will be limited-time deals, only available at certain times of the day, or the stores will open ridiculously early (like 5:30 a.m.) with a limited quantity of "doorbuster" deals. This creates a sense of urgency and hype and gets people into the store.


 * Personally, I don't do any shopping on Black Friday because of all the traffic -- both automobile on the street and pedestrian in the stores. Also, I have a moral problem with going to bed early on a holiday and getting up earlier on a vacation day than I would on a work day. ;) --Birdhombre 18:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Black Friday' (in terms of the post-U.S. Thanksgiving Day context) is simply this: it's the day where--in general--American retailers switch from operating with negative or marginal positive cashflow to a significantly stronger gross profit phase for the year; i.e., the so-called 'Holiday Rush', ('Christmas Rush' for the bible thumpers out there). Many American retailers--large and small--actually make very little net profit if not show a loss over most of the calendar year. This 'operating in the red' (as accounting ledger books were traditionally referred to when operational cashflow exceeds income; e.g., 'bleeding' red, etc.) traditionally changes to 'in the black' mode on this particular Friday, when the American consumer hits the shopping malls and big-box retailers in massive numbers. For many smaller businesses, the thirty-odd shopping days between Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day will determine whether or not they will still be operating at this same time period the following year. --monoblocks 08:32 PST, 24 November 2006 (i.e., 'Black Friday') (UTC)


 * It all depends on how you look at it.


 * If you're a store owner, it's the day your store goes "into the black" (or makes a profit) for the year.
 * If, on the other hand, you WORK in retail and you have to work THAT day (amidst all the chaos) ... the term "Black Friday" may very well take on a whole new meaning. LizFL (talk) 10:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I've seen people actually PITCHING TENTS outside stores the TUESDAY before Thanksgiving in an attempt to be the first one through the door on Black Friday (Personally, I think that's going too far -- something on the order of camping outside for several days hoping to score concert tickets. No TV is worth sacrificing one's Thanksgiving, IMO.) LizFL (talk) 10:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"Not uncommon for people to die"
Citation please? I'm sure it has happened before, but we could use proof. GhostPirate 21:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this may be overblown. Considering the volumes of shoppers (highest of any day), one incident doesn't warrant such language. Digitallib 18:06, 21 November 2010

It's probably happened once or twice, but "uncommon" is a strong word and definitely requires a cite. --Jwikipro 22:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6529135 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.92.97.195 (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Black Wednesday
At List of Black Wednesdays we have
 * Black Wednesday (Thanksgiving), for the day before Thanksgiving, nicknamed to match the Black Friday after Thanksgiving, e.g., for internet sales started earlier to attract Christmas shoppers and for revelry at the beginning of the four day Thanksgiving weekend.

In light of the "Cyber Monday" section, it's appropriate to include this sense of Black Wednesday in the accompanying article, either in its own section or by renaming the existing CM section, provided verifiability can be shown. --Jerzy•t 04:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, a HatNote Dab like
 * should be added to Black Wednesday. --Jerzy•t 04:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * should be added to Black Wednesday. --Jerzy•t 04:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Laziness and Confusion
The real origin of this phrase, it seems to me, lies in the fact that people are too mentally lazy to make up a new name for a new phenomenon, so they use an old one. The word 'Black" has no meaning here. It's simply "Black Friday" because there have been "Black Fridays" in the past, and therefore the phrase was somewhat familiar and began to be used, by the cops, or the media, or whomever, for another notable Friday that lacked a name of its own.  That the name caused confusion was not a goal but an inevitable result of of the mental laziness that caused it to be used in the first place.  I applaud the folks who have tried to to come up with post hoc explanations, some of which are extremely creative, especially the "black ink" hypothesis, which is frankly more than a little strained but seems to be generally accepted because people are looking for something logical even when it doesn't exist.  I also note that there is a large Irish population in Philadelphia, and that might have contributed to the acceptance of 'Black Friday" as a variant of the phrase 'black with people". I like that as a example of synergistic confusion, if I may call it that. 70.112.79.142 (talk) 18:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC) Eric

Date confusion
"Black Friday as a term has been used in multiple contexts, going back to the seventeenth century, where it was associated with a financial crisis in 1869. "

In the 17th century it was associated with a panic in 1869? 24.239.183.38 (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.68.36.20, 25 November 2010
The text of this document contains the string 'athanksgiving specials'.

Please remove the spurious 'a' prefixing the string 'thanksgiving'.

24.68.36.20 (talk) 16:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Done →Gƒoley Four   (GSV)  18:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Australia
Can someone add australia to the list of related holidays boxing day section because we also have boxing day sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.57.250 (talk) 14:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Done → Tinss (talk) 15:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Canada now observing this day
Can someone post that Canada is now promoting Black Friday here? theres thousands of articles about it online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.68.91.54 (talk) 23:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Done → Tinss (talk) 16:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom
This article claims that Black Friday is spreading to the UK, a "fact" that is not supported by the link provided which points to a single retailer (a US company by the way) making offers of cheap sales on online goods for five days that week. Thus, this does not indicate large numbers of people going to shops that open at 4 in the am, it is not the day after Thanksgiving which we do not celebrate and many employers do not give their staff the day off. Just about the only correlation with the American tradition of Black Friday is that it is a Friday. I believe that to be true of a number of days each month. 87.113.50.187 (talk) 14:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Perplexed by the opening paragraph
I am fairly new to commenting/editing here, but I did want to note my dismay regarding the first paragraph of this entry. It seems unnecessarily flip -- even somehow suggesting that the "black" in "black Friday" has something to do with the African celebration of Kwanzaa, which is certainly ludicrous. To be honest, the opening reads more like a blog entry than any kind of authoritative summary, and it raises enough questions about its veracity to call all of the subsequent text into question as well.Rmbittner (talk) 01:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Does the origin really matter?
Like many in this discussion, I dislike the term Black Friday and never heard it in general usage until the mid-2000s. However, if someone is using Wikipedia to discover what it means today (especially those outside the U.S. who don't keep up with American holidays like Thanksgiving) there is no debate that it is associated with promotions designed to encourage residents of the U.S. to shop on the day after American Thanksgiving. There is ample exploration of the different threads of debate regarding its origin in the article, but the summary statement should focus on assisting people understand why they are hearing the term today -- not what it meant in the city of Philadelphia in the 1960s.

RexHammock 13:24, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "Why do they call it Black Friday?" gets 17,500 hits on Google, so yes, I think people do want to know why it's called that, and that's a major reason why people come to this article. John M Baker (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * If we're going to use Google results to debate this, try the search query, "What is Black Friday?" -- It gets 530,000 results. However, even though I could use that fact to debate you, I must point out that "search results" numbers do not measure how many times people *ask* something, rather how many references to the query are indexed by Google...  so that's not really relevant to what people want to know nor an indicator. However, I don't want to debate you, even though I don't agree with your theory on what the "major" reason is that people come to this page, that wasn't my point. (I think the article should definitely address that.) I was simply stating an observation of this article's summary (that has since been edited) did not serve as a summary -- but, rather, launched into a long explanation of the origin of the term. That earlier summary (that has since been edited)  did not focus on what Black Friday is, as it relates to *shopping* -- the name of the article. As the debate on the origin of the word is well covered in the article under the "Origin" subsection, there is plenty of information that discusses that topic. I was merely noting that the *summary* should be limited to explaining what it is -- and the section on origin should be where the origin debate takes placeWell Balck Friday is in many ways like bocing day. RexHammock 22:53, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The citation to the sentence that Black Friday is so named because it is the day the stores "go into the black" basically disputes that theory. Just thought someone should know and possibly correct this. 72.81.205.187 (talk) 12:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Zalzoid, 26 November 2010
At the end of the first paragraph in the Shopping section, in the text, "since 2005, it actually was the busiest retail day", change "was" to "has been".

Zalzoid (talk) 13:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Done → John M Baker (talk) 00:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

What references were given that Canada is celebrating black Friday - this makes no sense based on Canada's thanksgiving. 1) Canada celebrates thanksgiving on the first Monday of October 2) there is no holiday in Canada that falls on every Thursday of a particular time of year allowing Canadians to "celebrate" black Friday 3) the only mention in the news of black friday is when Canadians are discussing what is happening in the states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.222.59.253 (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Why?
It is not entirely clear from the article why do people choose this day to shop. I would sure as hell go to shop any other day rather than this. – Alensha   talk  15:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence to the Shopping section, beginning of the second paragraph, to address this: Black Friday is popular as a shopping day because, as the first day after the last major holiday before Christmas, it inaugurates the Christmas season; because many employers give their employees the day off, increasing the potential number of shoppers; and because many retailers run attractive promotional one-day sales.  John M Baker (talk) 06:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It's a shame the entry is locked. I was going to add a link to this page (the Black Friday Myth) explaining how the deals aren't really that great and that we do it because other people do. Can the page either be unlocked or can someone else edit it to educate other readers? 72.81.205.187 (talk) 12:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Cyber Black Friday, Cyber Thanksgiving??
Cyber Black Friday is made up by CyberBlackFriday.com. Black Friday is Black Friday and always has been. Cyber Monday is Cyber Monday, but Cyber Black Friday is a recently made up term that is not a notable term. Considering the removal of this section after checking the history of the edit and the CyberBlackFriday.com link.Digitallib (talk) 02:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Cyber Thanksgiving also appears made up. Just because one small paper says Cyber shopping on Thanksgiving, doesn't mean it is a notable term. Digitallib (talk) 02:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Great points. I will remove. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.209.225.167 (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * There's an article Cyber Black Friday now... 76.66.202.72 (talk) 20:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggested text
Hi Tinss. I could have changed this, but I would rather not while there might be something major going on that I am not aware of (like an edit war). The text "Especially popular in the United States and Canada, the event is spreading to other nations such as ..." sounds odd for two reasons. In particularly the part "especially popular in the US", because this is after all an American custom. Secondly, the first sentence identifies it as in the US, so the next sentence looks odd saying "in the US and Canada". Could we try '''"After spreading from the United States to Canada, this American practice is now gaining popularity in other countries such as ..." Regards, --Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 23:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, that makes a lot of sense. Anyway, other people addressed the issue since my 26 of November edits so the wording is clearer now. Tinss (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Australia??
Australians do not celebrate Thanksgiving, nor do we celebrate the day after (Black Friday). Some American Companies are trying to introduce this type of shopping excuse - or what ever the Americans do on this day. The comment above, about Australia is about Boxing day (Australians celebrate a large sale the day after Christmas - not the day after thanksgiving). Boxing Day sales are celebrated on the 26th of December, it is used by the retailers to sell any outstanding christmas stock. Please remove Canada from this, Canada does not celebrate black Friday...or give at least one reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.222.59.253 (talk) 18:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The only reference to black friday that Australia uses, is every friday that falls on the 13th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.100.15.41 (talk) 23:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Its the same thing in Canada, we dont celerate American thanksgiving, while theirs in in November, ours is in October, plus we dont celebrate black friday, many Canadians may go across the border to take part in it but it is not observed by Canada.


 * I'm the one responsible for mentioning the spread to the UK and Australia. It was based on a quick web search but when I think a about it, you are correct in saying it has no place in the introduction. In the end, Black Friday is not an actual holiday nor does it celebrate anything in particular, it's more like a commercial custom. As for Canada, I have seen most major retailers in my city announcing deals on that day specifically and talks of Black Friday on TV and radio. Canadian retailers, because of a strong dollar, popularity of online shopping, and border proximity, did not want to loose any sales to the U.S. so they imported the event. Both markets are completely entangled and most major retailers in Canada are also found in the U.S., so it was only a matter of time. Tinss (talk) 16:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Black Friday in Australia is more likely to pertain to the 1939 bush fires that devastated the state of Victoria. http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/dse/nrenfoe.nsf/linkview/c4bca40c95a4c061ca256d960014420d8ac9c23269fa53b4ca256dab0027ecc4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.180.210 (talk) 11:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Violence (factual error)
Edit: The 2008 Walmart incident that resulted in the death of a worker occurred in Valley Stream, NY, not Spring Valley. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blaxpidey (talk • contribs) 21:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge from Cyber Black Friday
FYI, there is a merge discussion at Talk:Cyber Black Friday about merging that article away, to either this article or Cyber Monday. 76.66.202.72 (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

What's "black" about it?
After reading the text
 * The day's name originated in Philadelphia where it originally was used to describe the heavy and disruptive pedestrian and vehicle traffic which would occur on the day after Thanksgiving.

I still do not understand why the day was called "black." Can anyone augment the text to explain that? AmigoNico (talk) 10:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Its because its the time when retailers profits go "into the black". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.15.30.125 (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * as the article states, this was asserted after the fact as an kludgey "explanation", but the reality is that it was the very negative meanings involved when first coined. and at this point, i think we are back to those meanings: despite "authorities" constantly citing the "into the black" theory, i think most people nowadays are using it with a wink and a nod to the chaos involved.  Similar to "Zoo Year's Eve". 66.105.218.18 (talk) 13:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

"black" can mean the same as "dark", as in ominous, dreadful, bad, etc... the term was probably employed with melodramatic intent. It's the day things turn ugly for traffic cops maybe... 24.86.226.9 (talk) 08:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

On this Thanksgiving Day of 2011, I, Richard Joseph Kutney, want to change the name of "Black Friday" to "Buy Friday." I have a Bachelor's degree in English and an M.B.A. in Marketing. "Buy Friday" more accurately describes the day after Thanksgiving. "Buy Friday" has the same "long i" sound: "B\ai\y Fr\ai\day." Will you please start using "Buy Friday?" Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R kutney (talk • contribs) 23:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

There's a French expression, "noir de monde", which means the crowds are so thick you can't see through them. A literal translation would be "black with people", which seems very close to the meaning in this article. Possibly a link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.67.15.51 (talk) 21:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * i doubt it. i cannot see anyone in English saying the crowds are so thick that it's "black" out or "dark" out.  but i CAN see a bunch of people involved with keeping order saying it's a "black day" on their yearly calendar.


 * i think most americans are aware of "black sunday" in the irish context, and maybe a passing reference to other "black ---day"s throughout history. the names have been recycled for various movies, etc., so it's not a stretch to slap them on something else.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.105.218.32 (talk) 22:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Doorbusters
The article needs some serious explanation of the PRICING STRUCTURE in these sales. As currently written, one gets the impression that people are all showing up at opening time for no particular reason.

Point being that most of the sales are staggered "weekend price", "Friday-only price", "early bird price 5 am - 9 am", "doorbuster price first hour only", stuff like that. And even where a time limit is not involved, the really really great deals (90% off etc) usually have "5 per store" or "10 per store", so in reality, the sale lasts about 3 minutes!

THIS is why there is a mad panic to be among the first 10 or 20 people to get inside. AFAIK, all of the mobs, fights, riots etc. are happening in the first 20 or 30 mins of opening. Article gives the impression they continue throughout the day. Definitely not. 66.105.218.2 (talk) 12:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Thursday
Anyone want to mention Black Thursday? 71.146.20.62 (talk) 22:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I added a brief blurb for starters. Since the page is currently semi-protected, let me know if there are any additions you would like to make. Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 00:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Accounting Treatment/Name Origination
Retailers operate at a loss January through November? That's a ridiculous notion, even if it is sourced. I believe it should be taken down. Show me an example of a major retailer who operates at a loss until November. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.189.5 (talk) 23:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality
Parts of this article sound like they were written by the Occupy Wall Street crowd, such as "forcing employees to either go without enough sleep or miss all or part of Thanksgiving with family." There's a clear bias here ("Oh, the poor employees who have actually a job in this rotten economy and are actually expected to work!") that needs to be cleaned up, not in favor of the retailers but simply made neutral.  B.Rossow ·  talk  15:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This seemed a bit jarring to me too. The tenses are all mixed up as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.218.56 (talk) 00:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Since the NPOV language has been removed, I have deleted the POV flag. John M Baker (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Blue Laws
Somewhere in the opening paragraphs the phrase "in most states" needs to be added. Some states, like Massachusetts, do not permit stores to open on Thanksgiving. Nor for the employees to even do prep work until 12:01 Friday, so in practice most are opening at 12:30 or 1 am this year.

Meanwhile, in the states where it IS permitted, how is "10 pm" a new extreme (2011), when the article later states they have previously been open "all day Thanksgiving"??

AFAIK, this is NOT the case. All of these big chains like Walmart, KMart etc are CLOSED the bulk of the day. The only question is whether they're opening at 10pm, 11pm, or w/e, where prior years it has been 4 am or 5 am Friday. 66.105.218.2 (talk) 12:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from, 24 November 2011
Current text: A backlash has resulted, with an online petition gathering more than 184,000 virtual signatures urging Target to let their employees have Thanksgiving with their families. Revised text: A backlash has resulted, with an online petition gathering more than 199,790 virtual signatures urging Target to let their employees have Thanksgiving with their families.

Tahleki (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅ Updated the number, thank you. Zidanie5 (talk) 07:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

How about a backlash against the backlash! I would much rather go to a store at 10 at night than have to get up at 3 or 4 in the ferkin morning! Are they kidding?!

Hopefully when this plays out, they'll all be open 6pm Thanksgiving until 1 or 2 am Friday. Then we can all go home -- customers and staff alike -- and SLEEP all day Friday!

Show of hands? 66.105.218.22 (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks to me that the retailer lobby created this black friday idea in order to get more people into stores. The question is how much did the retailer lobby pay wikipedia to create this black friday entry?98.245.211.241 (talk) 17:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)cryofan

Hey man, don't be so suspicious! The Sound and the Fury (talk) 03:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Mis-information in article.
"similar to Boxing Day sales in many Commonwealth Nations."

How is Black Friday similar to Boxing Day? Black Friday is at the start of the holiday, Boxing Day is at the end. Americans also go shopping on "Boxing Day". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.187.66 (talk) 03:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The article states that Walmart "opens" at 10 a.m. Walmart does not close for Thanksgiving (the only day it is closed is Christmas), the sale starts at 10 a.m. Also, the reason that Sears is open on Thanksgiving now is because they are owned by Kmart which also does not close for Thanksgiving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.224.164 (talk) 02:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Walmart is open 24 Hours a day, every day, including Christmas Day. The store does not "open" at 8:00 P.M. for Black Friday, the Black Friday sale starts at 8:00 P.M. 71.72.29.104 (talk) 14:40, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

The above paragraph is not entirely correct. SOME Walmart stores are 24 hour stores, MANY are not. Please do not generalize without first doing research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.38.192.143 (talk) 00:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

It also says "In 2012, Walmart led several other retailers in announcing it would open its stores at 8:00 p.m. on Thanksgiving Day.", which is also not entirely true. Our management was under the impression that the Black Friday sales were going to start at 10PM on Thanksgiving, but ended up getting a memo saying that they would follow other retailers by starting their sales at 8PM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.204.233.30 (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The numbers in the chart don't multiply properly. Perhaps the column labelled "average" should be clarified by stating "median" instead, as average typically implies mean. Kimo sullivan (talk) 23:45, 23 November 2012 (UTC)Kimo

Improper portrayal of the Christmas tradition
I don't believe that it's part of any Christmas tradition to begin Christmas festivities on the day after Thanksgiving as part of the "Christmas season". The article should change these representations of "the Christmas season" to reflect what time period really is starting on the day after Thanksgiving in relation to Christmas, which is "the Christmas marketing season". If we merely referred again to "the Christmas shopping season", that information would be redundant within the context of explaining the phenomenon of Christmas-season shopping beginning on the day after Thanksgiving. But referring to the period as "the Christmas season" ascribed qualities to the Christmas tradition that don't actually exist. And the efforts of marketers to get people to spend more time shopping are not part of the Christmas tradition. Advent doesn't begin until November 27th, and Christmas is only twelve days long -- beginning on December 25th. Gabriel Arthur Petrie (talk) 17:30, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

it have been introduced in norway
i got emails from several shops about it. this link is valid at the time of posting but it most likely wont last very long. http://www.spaceworld.no/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.59.120 (talk) 09:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Retail sales statistics
247 million Americans shopped on Black Friday 2012 according to the stats? That's 80%+ of the US population including children and infants. If a shopper visits two stores, are they counted twice? this number seems suspect to me. 38.99.14.218 (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Clarifying, or somewhat clarifying, language added from the 2011 press release (I didn't see the 2012 release and added a tag for it).  The number is for the whole weekend (Thursday to Sunday), not just Black Friday, and the release says it measures "shoppers not people."  I'm also not sure we should include this table, since it's not specific to Black Friday the day.  John M Baker (talk) 17:55, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

It also states that Average Spent is significantly greater than the computed value of Total Spent divided by Shoppers. For Y2013, I compute ~$250/shopper.

Spinoffs
UK shoppers could be forgiven for ignoring Black Friday. A Black Day over this side of the Atlantic is a BAD Day - Dictionary quote: A Black Day A day when something very unpleasant or sad happens (usually + for ) i.e. A bomb went off early this morning. This is a black day for the peace process. See also: black, day Cambridge Idioms Dictionary, 2nd ed. Copyright © Cambridge University Press 2006. Reproduced with permission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.214.115 (talk) 14:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

these should be better organized. "cyber friday", for example, is an ATTEMPT to upstage cyber monday, but it has not really taken off. the article implies the two are comparable. moreover, no one has settled in on a name for thursday yet. "black thursday" will probably win out, but i have not heard it actually used yet. nor "thanksgiving thursday", which the article cites. news outlets are still saying "night before black friday".

and where is "local/small business saturday" in the article?! not as common as "cyber monday", perhaps, but clearly more common than "cyber friday" or some of the other recent coinages ("black wednesday", anyone?).

in other words, "black friday", "cyber monday" and "local saturday" are the only ones in common use. in that order! IMHO. 66.105.218.32 (talk) 22:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

UPDATE: newegg is having a "Black November" sale. LOL. talk about MILKING something! 66.105.218.22 (talk) 10:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Considering that businesses (hopefully) wind up "in the black" with green dollars, why not call that Friday, Green Friday?Dcrasno (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Should "Cyber Week" be added at this point? --Theking224 (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 18:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

– Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Black Friday for shopping is an annual event, and while there are several other Black Fridays listed on the disambiguation page, most of them are single days or films that are disambiguated by year anyways. WikiRedactor (talk) 00:14, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Black Friday (shopping) → Black Friday
 * Black Friday → Black Friday (disambiguation)


 * Oppose per WP:BIAS and WP:RECENTISM. While the shopping day is undeniably important topic, a one-day consumption promotion scheme in one country is not the primary topic in a general encyclopedia of worldwide scope when weighed against major historical events such as the Iranian Black Friday of 1978.  —  AjaxSmack   18:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is an international encyclopedia project. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Recentism is clearly evident in the last 90 days of page views There is a very heavy spike during that week, but little hits before or since. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose, with an eye towards a future re-proposal in a year or two. It seems like Black Friday the event is growing in notability; it may well overtake any of the other events in stature. I also note that both WP:BIAS and WP:RECENTISM are essays, nothing more; nevertheless, I agree with the dissidents here. "Black Friday" has a lot of meanings. Red Slash 06:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gray Thursday
Propose change of name of Black Thursday section to Gray Thursday - this seems to be the term most outlets are using. ProfessorTofty (talk) 08:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC) There are no sources in the article for "Gray Thursday" so why have a section called that? It's simply Black Friday creeping back into Thanksgiving Day, no? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit request
The year 2012 saw the biggest Black Friday to date in Canada, as Canadian retailers embraced it in an attempt to keep shoppers from travelling across the boarder.

should be

The year 2012 saw the biggest Black Friday to date in Canada, as Canadian retailers embraced it in an attempt to keep shoppers from traveling across the border. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milliardo989 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

In Canada, "travelling" is the correct spelling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.123.145 (talk) 03:47, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Is this serious or vandalism ?
Is the MANvsGame section just vandalism ? Darkman101 (talk) 06:01, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Friday 13th
I grew up always knowing Friday 13th was Black Friday. The reason I am here is wondering why people were saying 28th was Black Friday when it wasn't (to my knowledge)... you learn something every day. However, Friday 13th where I grew up is Black Friday - so why isn't this page about Black Friday 'in general' - it seems very US-focused. 27.32.141.11 (talk) 13:29, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * This article is Black Friday (shopping). There are many other Black Fridays.  I'm not familiar with any usage of referring to Friday the 13th as "Black Friday," but if there are reliable sources to that effect, it could be covered in Wikipedia.  John M Baker (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Bitcoin spending
User Bliljerk101 has edited in misleading sources regarding Bitcoin-spending during Black Friday claiming that $296 million of Bitcoin was spent across Black Friday and Cyber Monday in 2014. These sources do not talk about spending of Bitcoin in the sense on goods and services nor how much Bitcoin-users bought goods or services for during Black Friday and Cyber Monday, but how much was transferred across the Bitcoin-network those two days. The claim that $296 million was transferred across the Bitcoin-network during BF and CM is also false and can only be supported by combining exchange volume (i.e. buying and selling of BTC for fiat) and transaction volume for those two days. The references that were linked by Bliljerk101 are doing exactly this and are hence misleading. More of the discussion regarding this can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/36vlcq/til_296_million_were_spent_in_bitcoin_during/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnivi3 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Dnivi3 (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree. I have not broken a single Wikipedia rule, nor do I agree that the statement is any less accurate than the $50.9 billion USD being spent on Black Friday.
 * The USD statement provides no citation or reference that I am aware of. Assuming the statistic originated from here: https://nrf.com/sites/default/files/2014%20Black%20Friday%20Weekend%20-%20press%20FINAL.pdf


 * ... Then, if anything, the USD statistic is what is misleading since the Bitcoin statement is provable via the block chain and not just based on a survey.


 * Spending money is not ambiguous. When money is transacted, that is spending. If you need help with this, here is a definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spend?s=t


 * In conclusion, I believe I have provided ample evidence to keep my edit in place (see the references attached to my edit). There is nothing misleading whatsoever about it. If anything, it's far more accurate than the USD statistic.


 * Lastly, I might highlight that the 50.9 billion statement is only for US consumers who were surveyed according to this article: https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/black-friday-pros-and-cons-the-509-billion-dollar/
 * The content on this page does not specify US only.


 * If anything, I would suggest editing the Bitcoin statement to say "globally" spent and removing the "0.6% statement" as I now know that to be inaccurate. Then I would suggest editing the 50.9 billion statement to say "US consumers."


 * Thoughts?


 * Bliljerk101 (talk) 00:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I still disagree with you. For the record, I did not allege you have broken any Wikipedia-rule; I have simply pointed out what you have edited in about Bitcoin and Black Friday is misleading.


 * Regarding the Bitcoin-statement you claim is provable by the blockchain; please provide a source for this claim that clearly shows $296 million was spent across Black Friday and Cyber Monday of 2014.


 * I see your sources for definitions of spending, but disagree with your conclusion because in the article it talks about spending in a very specific context: retail. In this context spending is not synoymous with transactions, but purchases by consumers. Bitcoin-transactions cannot be discerned as retail or online purchases and as such the statistics you provide are misleading.


 * It is misleading and disingenuous to include change-transactions as spending in the wider as they return to yourself. Think of it in terms of paying with cash in a physical store; labelling the change you receive back from the cashier as spending is absurd. In the same way it is absurd to label change-transactions for Bitcoin as spending in the wider sense.


 * Dnivi3 (talk) 20:37, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Picture of violence
I suggest that someone find a picture of violence during Black Friday and insert it into the respective section in the article. LightningScout (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Violence and Chaos
I understand this section is well sourced but is it notable? Rather than including a random set of violent "events" on Black Friday, we should only give a brief summary of the instances with no specifics. Also, including information from the Violence and Chaos section in the lead is undue. 7 deaths and 98 injuries since 2006 is not necessarily significant considering the amount of people out and about on Black Friday. I'm tempted to remove the entire section and rewrite only a single paragraph. Meatsgains (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)