Talk:Black Hebrew Israelites/Archive 3

Suggestion for article
Mention in the lead that they are anti-Semitic, black supremacist, racist hate group who promote conspiracy theories and attempt to rewrite history. Prins van Oranje 18:04, 11 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The lead section already makes it clear that some BHI groups are racist and antisemitic. That is as far as the facts go and that is as far as we will go. The BHIs are not a single coherent group and racism is not common to all their groups. We are not going to call them all racists as that is simply not true. It would also serve to dilute the blame for racism by unfairly spreading it across the whole religion and removing the focus from those specific groups and individuals who actually have been racist.
 * As for "rewriting history"... This is a religion. All religions have beliefs about past events that are not attested by history. This is a key part of what makes those beliefs religious rather than historical. So long as we cover them in their correct context as religious beliefs rather than as historical facts then we are fine. We don't need to dunk on their beliefs any more than we need to dunk on other religions for believing stuff that seems implausible to people with different beliefs. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

grammatical error
refers to group as being non-homogenous. it's spelled homogeneous 174.44.71.62 (talk) 00:46, 3 June 2021 (UTC)


 * People have been using homogenous in place of homogeneous throughout the English-speaking world for at least a century, and homogenous is now several times more common than homogeneous outside scientific writing -- so trying to preserve the distinction is probably a losing battle. DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  02:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2021
Removed the word believe 173.171.58.126 (talk) 17:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2021
Remove black supremacy because that literally does not even exist and is not even possible. It is a false equivalency. Citation: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/10/08/equity-through-accuracy-changes-our-hate-map

Please update and stop the anti black hate in 2021. 174.95.104.54 (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The source does not mention this group. PackMecEng (talk) 01:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Black Supremacy groups do exist, though it’s a supremacy towards white people only Thepanthersfan201 (talk) 19:00, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Attacks and Killings
The Jersey City and Monsey anti-Ashkenazi attacks were done by BHI. This should be added to the article

Jersey City and Monsey terror attack were followers of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement

Jersey City and Monsey terror attack were followers of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement Walapo (talk) 15:17, 30 July 2022 (UTC)


 * We are not required to list every bad thing that a member of a religion does on the article about that religion. Furthermore those links provided do not even show that the attacker was a member of any specific BHI group and only make vague claims of "links" and "sympathetic feelings". --DanielRigal (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

New categories?
I've reverted addition of a chunk of new categories (diff here). Some might be OK (e.g. Pan-Africanism) but others seem to be overkill as they tar the whole religion with the behaviour of some if its more extreme groups and members. For comparison, we don't categorise the Catholic Church with the many scandalous things that have occurred in various parts of its organisation or been done by individual Catholics because those are not properties of the whole religion. So, which of these categories do we actually want? DanielRigal (talk) 23:30, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Kanye West?
Nuf said 2601:5C4:200:5C40:E893:9198:9C1D:F1A1 (talk) 13:49, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * If you are talking about that bizarre deleted tweet then I didn't see anything in that which had any direct connection to the BHIs beyond the shared allegation that black people are the "real" Jews. Anyway, it's not for us to make that link ourselves. If any reliable sources do then maybe we can cover it here. DanielRigal (talk) 20:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

'African Americans'?
Black people all over the world believe in this religion. They are mostly _not_ 'African American', having no links to the US whatsoever. 2A00:23C5:CF17:FD01:A575:7FA0:20BE:7BF3 (talk) 10:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Unsupported assertion at last sentence of introduction
The last sentence of the introduction currently reads, 'Tom Metzger, a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, once remarked to the Southern Poverty Law Center, "They're the black counterparts of us."' and links to: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/22/black-hebrew-israelites-covington-catholic-video-hate-group-other-info/2643519002/

The relevant quote from the reference is, 'A white supremacist leader, Tom Metzger, once said of extremist Hebrew Israelites, "They're the black counterparts of us," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.'

The reference does not support the assertion that Metzger made the statement to the SPLC. If he said this to the SPLC, a more explicit reference is needed. Otherwise the sentence should be adjusted to no longer imply some sort of interview took place. TheDefenseProfessor (talk) 06:11, 2 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Good point. I've reworded it to clarify that it's not a direct quote. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 21:39, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I find it odd that we are using the opinion of a member of the KKK to describe the group in the lead. It feels excessive. Thriley (talk) 19:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)


 * It's definitely a bit ick, but it drives the point home: this is an extremist group that even other extremist groups recognize as one of their own. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 21:52, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Its an extremist group, but I would say it has qualities of a new religious movement. I think the KKK line shouldn't be in the lead. The quote isn't even in the body of the article which makes me think an editor added it to simply denigrate the group. Thriley (talk) 03:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought it used to be, but I could be mistaken. In that case, it should probably be moved out of the header and into the body somewhere. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 19:37, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2022
The Israel United in Christ affiliation made headlines in 2022, marching in support of the Brooklyn Nets star player Kyrie Irving following Irving’s promotion on social media of a Hebrew Israelite-themed movie, Hebrews to Negroes: Wake Up Black America. The movie, made by Ronald Dalton Jr. based on his own book of the same title, contains numerous antisemtic tropes, including denial of the Holocaust and the claim that modern Jews are imposters to their religion. On March 20, 2022, hundreds of IUIC members appeared outside the Barclays Center in Brooklyn, chanting “we are the real Jews” and “time to wake up.” Kyrie later deleted the tweet. Hayden09292002 (talk) 19:19, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Goldsztajn (talk) 20:25, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Forward article
The answers by Bruce Haynes and Walter Isaac to Robin Washington's questions in the December 13, 2022 article https://forward.com/opinion/528214/hebrew-israelites-facts-myths-and-reflections/, archived at https://archive.md/4Y52q#selection-781.6-781.18 and http://web.archive.org/web/20230106194032/https://forward.com/opinion/528214/hebrew-israelites-facts-myths-and-reflections/, may have information which can be added to the article. Mcljlm (talk) 04:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As they're classified as opinion pieces, at most we could only use them to cite what the author believes, not as fact. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:22, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Isaac appear among the Sources so his replies as well those of Haynes seemed worth making easily available. Mcljlm (talk) 23:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, they cannot be used as statements of fact. And we're not here to make people's opinions "easily available," that's what Google is for. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 23:47, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Google can be used to find specific opinions (as opposed to general searches; searching "Black Hebrew Israelites" produces "About 210,000 results") if they're known to exist. If you've never heard of someone you're unlikely to notice his/her opinions. Mcljlm (talk) 11:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is not our problem. Again, we are not here to make other people's opinions more easily available. That is not Wikipedia's purpose. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 13:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Most of Section 4 Criticism of theological and historical claims appears to be people's opinions. Mcljlm (talk) 15:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The majority of that section is cited to scholarly sources & other authorities on theological claims. If you want to dispute any of them, WP:RSN is thataway. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 17:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2023
Please Change “Black Hebrew Israelites to Hebrew Israelites” “Black”Hebrew Israelites is considered a slur and very disrespectful. Umat21 (talk) 04:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, see WP:COMMONNAME Cannolis (talk) 13:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)