Talk:Black July/Archive 1

POV tag
I have no background in Sri Lankan history or these troubles. However, after reading this article about what were no doubt heinous events, the whole thing sounds far too POV to the neutral reader. The sections on "Eye witness accounts" and "Part of Continuing Terror" are particularly problematic in tone. There isn't enough properly sourced material (footnotes would help), citing the BBC articles and that external link to the Sri Lankan government information would be a good start. --Bobak 22:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks BOb for reminding us to be more vigilent, it is so difficult to be NPOV when faced with such a situation as well as a personal witness to the events. But I will update it with as much as possible referenced material to make it NPOV.RaveenS


 * If you have no background in Sri Lankan history, how do you know it's POV? There is plenty of biased material from both sides about the Sri Lankan conflict (including some on Wikipedia) but this article is not one of them.  These massacres happened, and both sides now admit to the truth. Tyronen 04:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added more citations, removed the sentence about nailed clubs, and changed one of the section subtitles. This should address any remaining POV concerns.  Please do not restore the POV tag without giving your reasons on this page. Tyronen 19:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverted POV
I have reverted the total edits made by user user 68.118.189.184 as the article was totally changed. As far as I have read of the event it was a massive attack on civilian tamils in the south by sinhalese mobs after the LTTE attack on the army patrol in Jaffna. The edits were obviously made to make it look as both parties were equal - that is sinhalese were as much attacked by tamils. I can not find any credible evidence for this, and so I consider it POV, or maybe more correctly propaganda. Ulflarsen 08:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Olorin28
I was in Sri Lanka in July 1983 and first-handly witnessed what happened when I returned home with my father from Nalanda College, Colombo on that fateful day and thereafter. It was a fight between Tamils and Sinhalese ignited by LTTE after killing 13 solders. Tamils were powerful in North East, Hill Country and some parts of Colombo whereas Sinhalese were powerful in South. LTTE strategize this attack to get international sympathy for their blood thirsty killings of Sinhalese and Muslims as they recently did in the Claymore attack in the Trincomalee market. There were no problems between Tamil and Sinhalese communities. My father had a Sinhalese friend whose 'home town' was Jaffna. We used to visit him so that we can worship 'Nagadeepa'. His family, like thousands of Sinhalese and Muslims in North and East were systametically slaughered or chased awary from their homes by LTTE. Sinhalese and Tamils lived peacefully until LTTE violated that in 1983. I don't want to go into details of our association with Tamils becasue my identity can be revealed and my family will be in grave danger of LTTE retaliation.

The mask of LTTE terrorists has been unvailed. This article is erroneous, speculative and had not been substantiated with evidence. Most imporatantly it is supporting LTTE's terroris cause. As you may know LTTE has listed as a terrorist organization in the U.S., Canada, Britain, India and many other countries. EU is about to list it as a terrorist organization. I urge you to correct your artile or remove it completely as it is illegal to help terrorists.


 * I understand that you disagree with the article, and from your IP address it also seems you are the one behind the changes to the article. I want to remind you that Wikipedia's goal is to write unbiased and objectively, and presenting all relevant views on the topics it covers, here is a starting point for our guidelines, |Wikipedia: Five pillars.


 * If you read the article you will see that it also contains a section with "External links", and as you see one of the links are to the official website of the government of Sri Lanka, here is some of what it says:


 * "Most politicians to this day use ‘Black July’ in their regular rhetoric but go no further; it is clear now politicians of the day crafted this pogrom against the Tamil people.


 * Mobs armed with iron poles, swords and gasoline systematically went about the business of killing, looting and burning Tamil establishments and homes. A trail of destruction and human misery was all that was left at the end, with, while authorities looked the other way, making little or no effort to stop the rampage."


 * There is more to read there - this is a direct link to it. And please remember, this is NOT tamil propaganda, or westerner's bias; it comes from the government of Sri Lanka.


 * Last but not least, you as well as anyone else can work on articles on Wikipedia, and of course also the one about Black July. Do however observe the rule, and as you seems to be new to Wikipedia I would like to underline that [legal threats] are specifically banned. In your comment above you wrote:


 * "I urge you to correct your artile or remove it completely as it is illegal to help terrorists."


 * Such statements will result in you being blocked for a shorter or longer time of the administrators for breaking one of the main rules of Wikipedia. Ulflarsen 16:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

If you are as unbiased as you say, why did you omit this part - "Tamil people being forced to seek refuge with their Sinhala friends and even with strangers who protected them for months on end"

What are the evidence that you have to say that Ananda and Nalanda college involved in this and Buddhist monks led the mobs ??


 * I have read the whole article, in fact I was the one who placed it there. I specifically copied out a minor part of it showing that the current Sri Lanka government takes responsibility for its pogroms against the tamil minority. There are other links there too, like the one from the BBC that says the same and more.


 * Something else, please dont add comments within my edits, its just confusing. I moved your edit so it comes after my previous one. Last but not least; if you keep editing the article in a biased way I will keep on changing your edits. Ulflarsen 18:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ulf Larsen, and would also stress the necessity to make sure the sources used on a topic as controversial as this one are neutral. The BBC is a good example of a neutral source. -- Arvind 18:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Other parts of the country
When reading the article it sounds like Black July was only limited to Colombo only. Contrary to that it took place in the hill country too. Places like Gampola, Nawalapitiya, Pusselawa, Ginigathena, Hatton, Kandy, Nuwara-Eliya, Badulla, Anuradapura etc. were also attacked by the Sinhala mobs. I think this fact should be included in the article. --Trengarasu 06:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Done

Estimates of dead
I am familiar with the Sri Lankan situation but I have never heard of 5-10000 Tamils being killed. I have replaced this estimate with a reputable estimate from the BBC. Ruchira 20 July 2006


 * Actually, I was there, and I was about 21 years old. The Government soldiers went from killing Tamils in the Capital called "Colombo," to killing Tamils in the refugee camps where they stayed. You might not of heard of 5-10,000 being killed, but you were'nt there so don't talk! None of Your Business 20 July 2006


 * The BBC link says 1-3 thousand, I suggest we use that estimate. However gruesome it was, genocide is not the word that should be used for the atrocities. Ulflarsen 05:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well apparently this website (http://www.genocide.org.uk/genocide/) states that well over 3,000 Tamils were massacred. And apparently, for you to say 1-3,000 killed is wrong. It was well over 3,000. Furthermore, for you to say its not a genocide, then what was it? The Government under the control of Junius Richard Jayawardene directed the massacres. The Sinhalese were carrying long-lists of names to kill. Even when I was there ("Sri Lanka") Junius said, "I am not worried about the opinion of the Tamil people… now we cannot think of them, not about their lives or their opinion.. the more you put pressure in the north, the happier the Sinhala people will be here… Really if I starve the Tamils out, the Sinhala people will be happy." So in other words, you have no right to say it isn't a genocide if you were not there. The BBC can only make an estimate, they don't know about everything that happenned. When I was 21 years old in Sri Lanka in 1983, the Sinhalese mobs killed every tamil that I knew in my neighborhood, and you say its not a genocide? Once again, if you were not there, don't underestimate the massacres and don't side with the Sinhalese government, as if you don't care about the thousands of Tamil lives lost. Everybody supports the Sinhalese government. Israel,US,UK,INDIA,RUSSIA,-all these countries arm and train the racist Sinhalese army. What the Tamils need is their own homeland, because they live in a zionest country where Sinhalese is the only "official" language and Buddishm is the official religion. That's why the Tamil Tigers are fighting for a good reason. IN CONCLUSION, THE RACIST SINHALESE GOVERNMENT CONTINUES TO MURDER INNOCENT TAMILS. SO THEREFORE, THEY NEED TO LEAVE THE TAMILS ALONE, SINCE THEY ALREADY DON'T APPRECIATE THEIR EXISTENCE!!!!!


 * Never heard of www.genocide.org.uk - BBC on the other hand is rather well known and respected. Genocide is both on a larger scale, more organised and on a longer timespan. Tamils and sinhalese continue to live close by each others in cities like Colombo. That I was not in Sri Lanka in 1983 is not an argument, it is common to write about some event even if one has not seen it. Keep in mind that we work on an encyclopedia, and check out our policy for this. Ulflarsen 14:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this, why don't you go to the webisite. Stop saying you never heard of it if you have not gone to the website. This is not a discussion of lying or historical avoidance, this is a discussion of the TRUTH!


 * I agree that it is about what is true and correct. The total number of dead during "Black July" will probably never be found, but the BBC is one of the most respected and trusted sources when it comes to reporting from such tragic events. So if you want to argue for another number of killed during the massacres you need to show sources with a similar weight as BBC has. Ulflarsen 21:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, regardless of how many are killed, it still is wrong! It should not of happened, and many similar massacres are happening to this day! Besides, I still was living in hell.


 * No doubt it was a crime towards the tamils. I was the one who started this article, partly due to that, so the victims should be remembered. But as we try to write an encyclopedia each and every article should be as correct as possible. In this case the number of dead is hard to determine, and the BBC is one of the more reliable sources we have, so I believe we are best served with presenting the numbers they have on their article about the massacres. Ulflarsen 20:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)