Talk:Black July/Archive 3

Prosecutions and compensations
A request to Ruchiraw and snowolfd4, you are both concerned about the POV of this article. How about expanding the section about compensation and prosecution section so that this will be a balance article ?RaveenS 15:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we come to an agreement on this in a civilized manner
RaveenS, we could keep adding and removing the POV, WEASEL and all sorts of other tags for the rest of our lives and I don't think either of us will give up. Frankly it will be an utter waste of my time, as well as yours and everyone Else's I'm sure.

So please let's get on the same page here. I agree that incredibly heinous and disgusting crimes were committed against perfectly innocent people during Black July and everything that happened was just sick, plain and simple. And I deeply sympathise with everyone who was effected by what happened. I truly do. And anything other than a detailed account of what happened here wouldn't do.

But that said, this is Wikipedia and we have to stick to the reliably proven facts only. So you have to understand, that I don't consider sources such as tamilnation.org and sangam.org credible and I don't think that we should cite them.

So I suggest we do it this way.


 * (1)Detailing what exactly happened - I'm willing to accept the accounts given in the UTHR report and V. Suryanarayan's article at lankalibrary.com as credible. Unfortunately, I can't accept the reports on tamilnation and sangam. But since UTHR and Suryanarayan give detailed accounts of what happened, why don't we stick strictly to the facts give there and avoid any contention?


 * (2)Government Complicity Section - I think you have to agree that it hasn't yet been reliably proven that the government was in-itself complicit in what happened. However I agree that the government of the time did little to stop the violence in the early stages (and I think that is just terrible). So why don't we rename the section Government Inaction and say things like during the early stages the government did little to stop the violence that was going on


 * (3)Eye witness accounts - neither the UTHR report, the BBC report nor the article by Suryanarayan talk of any cases of rape. So I don't think we should include it. In this case I have no problem with links to sangam.org and genocide.org auricles/pictures, especially since they provide some very good pictures

What do you mean? There were plenty of cases of rape. Just because BBC didn't mention rape does not mean it did not happen. It not like the BBC are on the ground 24/7. Even if they are a respected news source, what counts is people who were actually there and I know people who had relatives killed and raped. The only thing that needs to be changed is that the numbers of those killed needs to increase significantly. I know there was a lot more than 3,000 people killed. The Government furthermore did indeed organize the massacres. Not to mention the government soldiers were committing massacres against Tamils in Northern Sri Lanka, the same time Tamils were massacred in Southern Sri Lanka around Colombo in 1983, which apparently is the "capital" of the "entire" Sri Lankan Country!? Plus what makes this all nonsense is that there are massacres against Tamils continuing today. The Sri Lankan military (armed by: India, Pakistan, Israel, USA, Great Britain, China, Australia, Russia) has already killed 100s of Tamils in Sambur in a Northern Town of Sri Lanka. I think that its time to admit all truths, because lying and denying won't get us anywhere. This is becoming a cat and mouse game. While you keep denying rape happened in 1983, tamils are being bombed by the Sri Lankan Military in Sambur right now! Come on!


 * (4)Casualties -No problem here. However the grammar needs to be corrected a bit.


 * (5)Context of the violence - again words like allegedly organized by the ruling party shouldn't be included here, since it violates WP:WEASEL. I also can't find any good material on the 1977 riots so can you please cite good sources. The rest seems OK for now.


 * (6)As a remembrance day - again, no problem with this section. (only the heading is misspelled :-o )

So please, everyone, I say we have a civilized discussion on this and agree on the final wording of this article. (We don't have to call each other names, do we Huracane?)  --snowolfd4 06:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don’t have time today much to discuss, because my goal today is to start a stub on Welikade prison massacre a long overdue project and that's it. Anyway about point 1. I am not sure it would be prudent to restrict this article just to 2 sources and those 2 sources are not upto Wiki standards. Wiki standards say no original sources can be the sole references of an encyclopedia article, that is they have to corroborated by other sources. UTHR(J) and Suriyanarayan are both primary sources and some Tamils would argue that both are not neutral. UTHR(J) is primarily and ant-LTTE entity thus pro-state, it recently went to the extreme of claiming that one of the rape and murder victim Ilayathambi_Tharsini was a prostitute to cover Sri Lankan Navy complicity in the rape only to recant after protest about 2 reports later. Hence to write an important article on Black July based UTHR(J) author’s personal opinion alone will not suffice. Further some Tamils will argue that Suriyanarayan is not just anti-LTTE  and pro-state but also an anti-Tamil racist, which UTHR(J) authors have not been  accused of. Hence we have a problem with your definition of sources to begin with. In some quarters they are not neutral, they are primary sources and are their opinions. That’s all for today, we will continue this discussion later.Thanks for starting a discussion section, point by point. I have made one change that I agreed with on 5 and 6RaveenS 14:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Summary of the above rambling :-(


 * (1) we need to come to an agreement as to what is a good reference, the 2 mentioned can be in the list but not the sole 2 references.
 * (2) Government complicity, I for one feel this article does not go deep into the commonly accepted consensus by subsequent Sri Lankan governments, academics and NGO that it is a pogrom because there was an element of government involvement and organization. May be we can rename it Government role instead of complicity and add a section on theories but we need links to Gamini Dissanayake and Lalith Athulathamudali the other 2 henchman along with Cyril Mathew
 * (3) You are dealing with eye witness accounts here, I saw Buddhist monks leading Ananda college students in white uniforms across Maradana Street into Borella to participate (there were hundreds of students they might be in their late 30's and early 40's by now) But we removed it out of this article because we still hav not found a reference to it. I‘ve heard and read but not witnessed  that rapes did happen, Tamil women, mothers and grand mothers were gang raped and sometimes killed afterwards and those who survived some chose to commit suicide and The Hindu newspaper published articles on it in post October 1983. If we agree to create a list of things to do like a project page in which finding the sources for Buddhist monks leading students and Rape are included then I am willing to remove Rape till someone finds the source for it. Thanks RaveenS 03:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed typos Huracane 15:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you've said. (or shall I say your dribble :-)


 * I'm changing the first section as i see fit and trying to make it as NPOV as possible. If you think something is inappropriate or not included feel free to say so we can discuss it.
 * Like you said I'm renaming it Government role and making some changes.
 * I'm changing the word rape to looting --snowolfD4 23:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed RaveenS. I'm glad we seam to have come to some agreement on this. But I have to change the wording on the to do list because until they are reliably proven, they do remain as allegations. --snowolfD4 06:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC

Political prisoners
Let's discuss one at a time, term political prisoners. It should stay because if you kill political prisoners then you killed political prisoners. It is a fact, no amount of sugar coating it will make it look like you killed criminals. See quote ''July 83 saw the massacre of 53 political prisoners at Welikada Prison, who were brutally done to death in two days of violence on 25 July and 27 July, 1983. Kuttimani appointed as Member of Parliament, while in prison, was amongst the 53 who met with gruesome death inside the prison.'' source. The source is an editorial from a state oned daily. No if's or buts about it.


 * How can you state that the 53 people killed were "political" prisoners. Please cite that fact, or else leave it as the more neutral "prisoners". I am changing it back to "prisoners".


 * Please see Welikada prison massacre through the blue linked articls, it is already cited, and I have gprovided again in the talk page the same citation. Thanks RaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations for Blue linked articles
In Wikipedia usually citations are not required if the sentence links it to a blue linked article as long as the linked article is fully referenced. If it links to an article that is not fully referenced then it is reasonable to ask for citations or remove that sentence. Most citations requested are linked to other articles. So I ask the editor to the do the hard job of going through those articles first to ascertain whether those articles written according to WP:Policies. For example the request for 1958 riots being the start of violent confrontation comes from the 1958 riots article itself. That article is also fully referenced from a reputable source.


 * Please do not remove my tags where citation is needed. Rather than removing tags, it would be helpfull if you can cite the claims made.


 * Before we make a mess out of this edit, pick section by section and first find the citations, because most what you are asking for citation are already cited. Then if not available ask for citation. Word by word every section here is cited directly or through blue linked articles. Maybe we have a communication problem here. What we have done over a period here is that either fact is cited directly or through blue linked articles. RaveenS


 * Also you seem to raise questions about a blue linked article Burning of Jaffna library. Again it is a fully referenced article that has information from neutral sources including a dead president Premadasa saying the government did it. So if you have a problem with that better you raise it over there achive consensus and bring that version here. ThanksRaveenS 21:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Library was burnt by government agents", To my knowledge although there was a inquiry, no court of law has found GD, or CM guilty of burning the library. So can we addd the term "allegedly burnt down by goverment agents" as it would seem more apprpriate. IIRC there was a inquiry by Chandrika or a SLFP goverment regarding the library (mainly to throw mud at the UNP), some commision or another, but I am not aware of its findings, and I am unable to find a reference to it at the moment. Perhaps you might be able to find this source and use it to cite the sentence.


 * Please read the following citation from the blue linked article Jaffna Library. The sentence in question "Library was burnt by government agents", is based on number of neutral and credible citations like this. I can add 2 more citations which say the same. RaveenS 20:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Alleged libelous statements about JRJ
If in the biography of Hitler one says he was responsible for the death of few million Jews it is not libelous as long as it is referenced. The sentence removed about JRJ is fully referenced. If the editor has any credible information that shows that JRJ was not involved in the pogrom then he can always add to refute the point being made. A Wikipedia article can in it have number of points some of which contradict the main point being made. All what we are doing here is to be a reference point for readers of all known facts about a subject including contradicting information. RaveenS 13:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding JRJ, I have indeed gone over the link, but I fail to see the text which says that "JRJ wanted to teach tamils a lesson". Please cite that very important bit of info.Kerr avon 07:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * OK then see the edit now per citation.RaveenS


 * First of all I must indeed acknowledge and praise your efforts to achieve a compromise. THe JRJ rewording is acceptable now with regard to JRJ's POV. Few questions,


 * regarding Cyril mathew and GD, there is a sentence saying "Many government ministers such as Cyril Mathew and Gamini Dissanayake of the government headed by president Junius Richard Jayawardene were involved in instigating the violence". I think we should add the word "were alleged to have been involved" be more appropriate as this is a encyclopaedia and should be NPOV, as no court of law(either sri lankan or international) has found them guilty, the sources cited, state that they were involved, but if they have not been convicted, it is not fitting in a encyclopaedia to say that they were involved as there is nothing to prove 100% that they were involved, ie conviction by a court of law.


 * OK then can we say according to UTHR report or some other neutral and credible source that CM and GD were involved ?RaveenS 20:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Other edits

 * "saving there lives" is not acceptable for a encyclopaedia it is biased and NPOV, "granting them asylum" is.


 * OK agreedRaveenS


 * My friend, you have been editing the wiki for some time and appear to be a responsible editor, I hope you agree with me that the article should contain cited verifiable information from neutral reliable sources. I dont care if you state that Prabhakaran is the reincarnation of the sun god himself if you can find a reliable source to substantiate that statement. Otherwise potentially offensive, subjective and libellous statements are not allowed. My edits were neutral and NPOV, so i fail to see why you are reverting them.Kerr avon 07:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please leave discussions to user pages, here we will stick to the subject matter. Read Soapbox. ThanksRaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Lastly Black July is a fact and I am not denying it. But we must be careful at making claims especially against prominent figures without adequate citation. I hope we can come to a compromise.Kerr avon 07:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed as long as you follow what the tag says here, that this is a controversial subject and discuss changes to it in the talk page and achieve consensus before making changes. Also follw the talk page convention so that it becomes easy to categorize the changes requested, section mentioned and consensus achived. Thanks RaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Thousands" or tamil youth joined LTTE etc. When you add the term "thousands" a citation or a probable figure is required(again shouldnt be hard to find regarding the prominence of theissue), as it can be 2000, 50,000 etc . If it was "Many" tamil youths joined etc, then a citation would not probably be required.I am leaving the article unedited in the spirit of discussion and compromise, pending the sorting out of the above issues.Kerr avon 02:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Lets' say many agreed RaveenS

Removal of citations and no citations
Please discuss before removing cited material 14:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Bogus references
Genocide.org.uk is an LTTE run propaganda site Not an acceptable reference for wikipedia. Please provide acceptable references Dutugemunu (talk) 12:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well www.genocide.org.uk references a number of sites within its content. "Dutugemunu" Please don't tell tell the rest of the world BBC, New York times and many other reference sites publish bogus information. I think you are trying to cover state sponsored terrorism by saying this site is a LTTE site. Just for your information there is no reference to any LTTE site on www.genocide.org.uk. Just accept the fact 3000 Tamils were killed by Sinhala nation within 3 days and move on to solve the problem.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.158.224 (talk) 16:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * genocide.org.uk referes to a lot of sites. among them are pro-LTTE (Terrorist) sites. therefore it cannot be considered as a neutral site. (there's no such thing as a "Sinhala nation") --Navod Ediriweera (talk) 04:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Novad rather than accusing the site just point out the facts. I have used that site a number of times, the links point to the articles related to 1983 Tamil genocide. It is a useful site. Wish they update the site regularly.


 * The term Sinhala nation has been used by most southern politicians including, JVP, JHU and even quoted by the president on the independent days speech. In future if you accuse something please state the facts. Branding Tamil sites as LTTE or terrorist sites is not acceptable. --R Joseph (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

How credible is the Image:83n.jpg posted in this article? I remeber seeing the same image in a different context, which has nothing to do with 1983 riots. Ritigala Jayasena (talk) 00:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * where else, any references ? Taprobanus (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Genocide.org.uk IS a LTTE run propaganda site. By listing the site here, the Wikipedia may lose credibility. No wonder some teachers do not want us to use this site for school projects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.198.255 (talk) 01:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

International Media Quotes
I've removed the following random selection of quotes from the media. At least some of the material may be useful if merged into the article body, but in its current form it's inappropriate to the encyclopedia.

"The violence was vicious and bloody. But what distinguished it from many other communal Asian riots was the way that the mob singled out specific business premises. In street after street in Colombo groups of rioters hit only at shops and factories, as well as homes owned by Tamils. Their careful selectivity is apprarent now. In each street individual business premises were burnt down while others alongside stand unscathed. Troops and police (almost exclusively Sinhalese) either joined the rioters or stood idly by.The events were so well organised no one doubts that there was a master list of targets." Financial Times, 12 August 1983

A 28 year old housewife, who returned from a Sri Lanka holiday with her husband and two daughters said the huts Tamils lived had been 'cleanly burned out', the arsonists evidently being anxious to ensure that no Sinhalese property was damaged. Hindu, 29 July 1983

The rioters seeking out Tamil homes and burning them had a particularly detailed knowledge of who lived where and who owned what. The Times, 8 August 1983

"Motorists were dragged from their cars to be stoned and beaten with sticks... Others were cut down with knives and axes." Daily Telegraph, 26 July 1983

"Mobs of Sinhala youth rampaged through the streets, ransacking homes, shops and offices, looting them and setting them ablaze, as they sought out members of the Tamil ethnic minority." Daily Telegraph 26 July 1983

"In Pettah, the old commercial heart of the city, row after row of sari boutiques, electronic dealers, rice sellers, car parts stores, lie shattered and scarred... Government officials yesterday estimated 20,000 businesses had been attacked in the city" The Guardian 28 July 1983

--Tony Sidaway 14:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Humanisum is a sweet word that we here and forgiving enmies is great. West countries and some soutasians need ceasefire in Sri Lanka to protect LTTE, leaders. In US point of view Al-Qa'ida is bad, but LTTE is good because they wont harm to white man.

A country has more than 2500 years writen histroy now have to depend those Anglo-Saxons and Viking in westen countries. Unfortunate this country Sri Lanka had to listen the country like USA which creat stealing lands form red indians and build up by blood of BLACK PEOPLE'S BLOOD. This countries (USA, UK, Japan, India, NORWAY) do not let Sri Lankan to get up their own feet, so they try to help LTTE the brutal savage terrorist gang.

Unfortunate thing is Japan and India also with them. Those countries that Sri Lankan thought our anciant friends and neighbours, stand against Sri Lanka with the white devils.

This is the time to understand Sri Lankans who are there real friends, INDIA the country our Lord Gautama Buddha born or Pakistan. Japan or China. Western countries or Arabic countries.

SRI LANKAN THINK TO GET ON YOUR OWN FEET. CJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamara84 (talk • contribs) 04:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Humanism is a sweet word that we hear and forgiving enemies is great. West countries and some south Asians need ceasefire in Sri Lanka to protect LTTE, leaders. In US point of view Al-Qa'ida is bad, but LTTE is good because they wont harm to white man.

A country has more than 2500 years written history now have to depend, those Anglo-Saxons and Viking in western countries. Unfortunate this country Sri Lanka had to listen the country like USA which create stealing lands form red Indians and build up by blood of BLACK PEOPLE'S BLOOD. These countries (USA, UK, Japan, India, NORWAY) do not let Sri Lankan to get up their own feet, so they try to help LTTE the brutal savage terrorist gang.

Unfortunate thing is Japan and India also with them. Those countries that Sri Lankan thought our ancient friends and neighbors, stand against Sri Lanka with the white devils.

This is the time to understand Sri Lankans who are there real friends, INDIA the country our Lord Gautama Buddha born or Pakistan. Japan or China. Western countries or Arabic countries.

SRI LANKAN THINK TO GET ON YOUR OWN FEET. CJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamara84 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

3000?
I don't see any sources for this number coming from anywhere other than Tamil separatist movements. The offical government figure at the time of the incident was around ~ 350. http://www.blackjuly83.com/Library_New.htm That seems about right. HumanFrailty (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

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