Talk:Black Madonna

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lvcongo.

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Sinai Icon
I'm confused as to how the Sinai icon in the examples section depicts a Black Madonna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.240.60 (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Untitled
Huh? Danny


 * I'll try to NPOV it. I will probably be too gentle in editing it, but maybe someone more harsh can come after me :-) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 02:07 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Gosh this is silly. Just to start with, using the term "Madonna" for a statue outside Italy (the examples listed are French and Polish) is kind of -- uhh -- obtuse. Thus I don't even think this is worth revising with the universally accepted opinion of art historians and museum professionals (the people who actually look at the surfaces of these things with microscopes) that the color is discoloring due to age. Oh, well. Wikipedia offends me badly enough again that I wonder why I bothered to come back. And the Michelangelo stuff! Look at a good picture, people. The bandeau across her chest has the text from Luke (I think) -- definitely not the Magdalen. Oh, well -- what are you going to do with people who (a)prefer esoteric interpretation and (b) can his "edit this page'? --Michael Tinkler, former contributor.

I agree with the others. If the discolouration is in fact the "theory which is widely accepted among musuem curators", then Wikipedia should present this as a likely theory and the most prominent one, not blithely ascribe it to "historical racism". In fact, the whole article could do with a rewrite by somebody with knowledge in this area. (Hint to the above poster: you too can hit the "edit this page" link!) Aaaanyway. I have marked it POV. --Spudtater 22:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. I'll start on it myself. --Spudtater 22:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Gah! If there were any sources I could trust, this would be a lot easier! --Spudtater 23:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removal of content
Please don't remove whole chunks of the text just because you personally disagree with the hypotheses expressed therein. If you have enough knowledge to make an educated decision that a hypothesis is nonsense, then please share your reasoning with us by adding that to the text, not removing the original hypothesis. Thank you. --Spudtater 23:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Black Madonnas and contemporary culture
What sort of information could we put in here about contemporary culture(s) and Black Madonnas? In the novel The Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd, one features prominently as the icon at the center of a small African-American religious community. I'm wondering if there's any "real life" analogues to that, which would fit into this article. The Literate Engineer 22:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"African by Nature" link
The "African by Nature" site and many of its links are clearly biased and Afrocentric, and are contradicted by the article and the other links. Specifically, it/they explicitly call(s) the black madonnas "African" (the page from which it plagiarizes actually says "historically, alabaster-white madonnas are far newer than their black counterparts," (emphasis mine) not "African" ), claim(s) Jesus was "black", and makes inflammatory suggestions (e.g. the site's definition of "denial") seen elsewhere in the history of this article. Some of the silent contributors of this article undeniably have an ethnocentric agenda and their contributions aren't encyclopedic. This link seems just to be permitted residue of the formerly rampant racist vandalism of this article. I know other contributors have seen this link and left it there (Spudtater, et al ), so I ask why it has remained untouched. Because it proclaims many inaccuracies, it doesn't belong here, so I'm removing it until someone explains its validity. The favorable links found on this site should be posted separately. --Jugbo 23:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE REASON HER SKIN IS DEPICTED AS DARK OR BLACK IS BECAUSE SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN? Thousands of years ago they did not have the say race issues that we do now. So painting her black was due to seeing black skin. The original artist probably had very little experience with African features so her features came out European looking. However, there are many Africans with "European" features without being European. Over the years it seems as if Blacks are being written out of religious history. One needs only to pick up the Bible to read about Black history. Nita 4:30 pm July 11, 2006 CST

Personally, I favour the theory that she was a Semite, not black. It's a bit more probable considering the geography involved. Black people have plenty of well-documented stuff to be proud of. No need to push a marginal theory like that; it simply weakens the case for the real stuff by confusing the issue. Rhialto 08:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Are Black and Semite mutually exclusive? vap (talk) 07:11, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Just removed : "Most religions are plagiarized from the indigenous people of Africa and culture. The people of ancien Kemet translates to [The Black Land/The Black People] ancient Ethiopia and Nubia.". This is unsubstantial (most religions??), and also ungrammatical. Riyadi (talk) 23:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite 25 Feb 2006
Hi everyone - I saw the call for help with this and had a go at improving it. Though I'm not an expert, I felt I had enough knowledge to make a difference. It has been more difficult than I expected - and I had to put a lot of effort into trying to represent different points of view fairly.

I hope to add to the "further reading" list and and the external links soon.

I didn't keep the text about the Madonna at Częstochowa because she has her own page, and it is controversial to say that particular icon is older than any other Black Madonna. (The tradition of having been painted by Luke the Evangelist applies to several Italian Madonnas too.)

One day I may work at building up a list of Black Madonnas. Anyone who's interested in doing that could find these links useful. http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/blackm/blackm.html and http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarze_Madonna

Please excuse any lapses in WikiP style or etiquette. I'm trying but I'm new here. :) HJMG 22:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

PS Other thoughts:

It would be good if the page had a picture of a really dark black Black Madonna like these: http://www.sabbatarian.com/SubPage/BlackMadonnas.html

Fleur-de-lys
This could be misleading if it sounds like a name for the painting. Except on Wikipedia copy sites, I can only find it used as a description of the pattern on the robes in this painting. HJMG 09:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Earth Mary?
 "(Note certain "earth-Mary" toponyms, thus one Erdmarishusen in S Germany.)"  I don't remember reading about this before and can't find any reliable sources for it. Can anyone help? Should this statement be with the best-known theories in the theory section or in a footnote? Even in a footnote it would need a source. --HJMG 22:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 *  (Note certain "earth-Mary" toponyms, thus one Erdmarishusen...ref>Cited thus in medieval documents from AD 816 onward, now Erdmannhausen (near Marbach). It has to be said that no black madonna is known from that town today.</ref... in S Germany.)  I've put this here on the talk page for discussion and/or until a source is found. --HJMG 20:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

19th C Fundamentalist Protestant Anti-Catholicism?
I am surprised by a recent contribution suggesting this has influenced modern writers on the Black Madonnas. Without any source for this opinion, I am unhappy about leaving it in the article. Does anyone know more about a link between Hislop's ideas and modern writers who suggest "pagan" echoes in images of Black Madonnas? --HJMG 11:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've cut this since no-one has offered any verification. --HJMG 14:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality
I challenge the neutrality of this article. Its shows no scholarship and instead shows a bias on the part of several non-Christian authors who wish to super-impose their ideas onto this articles. This is not an article about the occult and Isis, it is a Christian History that is being lost here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.63.192 (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I'd like to throw the idea that true neutrality implies that Christian History is as deserving of impartial documentation (regardless of our own beliefs) as is Egyptian Mythology and the history of the fascination of the occult. To put it another way: articles about the occult, Isis and Christ deserve the same scientific rigour and neutrality; Christian History deserves to be preserved, just like Egyptian Mythology and any other human-made mythologies and/or systems of belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.170.24 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit 10/01/09
I added a POV tag on the grounds that this article presents fringe theories as mainstream historical consensus and even, in places, as established fact. Furthermore, none of the claims are properly sourced. I began revising the article by deleting the section on Our Lady of Guadalupe on the following grounds: "Non-white" is not a synonym for "black", and therefore the image does not belong in this article; "1212" is not an anagram for "Isis"; there is no citation for the implicit claim that the date was abbreviated 12/12 in 16th century Mexico; there is no evidence that St. Juan Diego was even aware of the existence of Egyptian mythology, much less its content; there is no citation for the claim that Notre Dame de Paris (which was built in the 12th century) was constructed on the site of a (presumably long-destroyed) temple of Isis; and the history of Notre Dame de Paris is irrelevant to the history of the purported Marian apparitions at Guadalupe in any event. Much of the article seems taken up with these kinds of claims, hopefully I'll have time to do more work later. DennisAreopagus (talk) 02:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Further revised article, eliminated most of the repetition, added qualifiers to more clearly delineate pseudo-historical claims. Now I know I need to begin the citation process, but in my defense, the article had NO footnotes when I got here. Now it has one, which is infinitely more than zero. Oh, and I eliminated a reference to "lil wayne's wife". DennisAreopagus (talk) 05:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

--Why?--

Why is it that articles representing information that challenges the acceptable delusion of white skin for all religious figures always cause the most ignorant, uneducated energies to emerge and be heard as authorities on topics that alarm them due to an innate self hatered that if they were to remotely read, travel and actually visit some of these places mention in this article and question why? do various European cultures pay homage to these most perfect, beautiful, ancient and black statutes for centuries? I'm willing to bet when their truth is revealed this would still alarmed these closed minded individuals to insanity. Genetic testing has shown how race actually has no place in humanity, ethnicity fools many by the outward appearances of skin color and many are not what they think they are either racially. But I bet you this with the coming earth changes survival of the fittest will be much challenged without the right skin protection. So lets try to embrace more realities than to refute them based on internal conflicts that can not be resolved here on this website. PIJ 11/9/10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.130.19.82 (talk) 07:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Isis
Some scholars of comparative religion, particularly those with Afrocentrist, feminist, or neo-pagan backgrounds, have suggested that Black Madonnas are descendants of pre-Christian mother or earth goddesses (Moss, Benko), often highlighting Isis as the key ancestor-goddess

I realise that this section being included does not equal an endorsement of it, but perhaps some further explanation? My main objection is that Isis was NEVER depicted as looking even remotely black in ancient Egyptian art, but rather as white, yellow, or light reddish-brown, the standard colors used for female skin. However, given that I've read about people who claim Nefertiti's famous bust was altered or even an outright forgery by archaeologists with a White supremacist agenda, I suppose anything's possible. PenitentWhaler (talk) 18:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Additional Info a/b Mary / Jesus Line of Descent and black skin
in regard to the coloring of the MARY line TO includes black, which comes down to today from well known intermarriages from the lines claimed and accurate known to be children of Jesus with all royal families of Europe and from them to many other Europeans, two points - some claim that Mary Magdalene the wife of Jesus and so mother of his children, had a black father; but otherwise, that is unknown and unproven but perhaps also the line from Mary also had rather than black, otherwise, dark complexion as in either event, the lines to today from these Jesus descended lines, have the repeating feature , like a marker, that every so often a person will appear who is very dark with very dark irises and so many times is then referred as the devil as William Conquerors grandfather.... and these darker persons, have no connection whatsoever to intermarriages to blacks ... q.v. all those lines ,  SOH Sr, AO 0   24.186.56.245 (talk) @@@  —Preceding undated comment added 21:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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Black Madonna portrays Mary Magdalen as Jesus' Wife and Mother of his Child
"There is an esoteric theory that Jesus and Mary Magdalen were married and that she was pregnant at the time of his crucifixion on 7.4.783 AUC /April 7, 30 AD. (ref>Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln (Dell, 1983)/ref). She flew persecution to Alexandria and had a daughter Sarah. App. 12 years later, MM and her daughter arrived by boat at the south of France (ref>The Woman With The Alabaster Jar by Margaret Starbird (Bear & Co., 1993), p 61 /ref). The Black Madonnas (which are primarily found in France) encode this esoteric information." - Pythagoras 66.229.179.242 (talk) 23:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.179.242 (talk) 23:03, 16 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I was going to move the section re Mary Magdalene to the Talk page, but found it already here. Baiget et al's hypothesis re the marriage of Jesus and Magdalene is well known, as is the fact that Starbird wrote her book after having read theirs. The threshold question for this article however, is not whether this is true, but does either book specifically discuss Black Madonnas? Mannanan51 (talk) 22:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Mannanan51

Ethiopian and Nubian Icons
Although not considered "black madonnas" under the European medieval definition (which itself is only a 19th century hypothesis) there are countless examples of Nubian and Ethiopian depictions of Mary as dark skinned. I'm wondering if anyone here has any opinion on a mention of examples of such depictions.Trinacrialucente (talk) 06:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

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Nossa Senhora da Nazaré
Heads-up - there appears to be a mix-up in the Portugal section. The links reference Nazaré (Portugal) and Igreja de Nossa Senhora da Nazaré (Luanda, Angola) as though they were both IN Portugal. Angola was a Portuguese colony, yes, but not since 1975 - so the Igreja can't really be said to be in Portugal territory. Not to mention the mix-up - the way it's written, it implies that the Igreja de Nossa Senhora da Nazaré is geographically in Portugal... then it links to a page that says it's in Angola. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.170.24 (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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"Notre-Dame la Blanche"
I see that "Notre-Dame de Pilar" at Chartres is not included in the list of so-called "Black Madonnas" in the article, so this won't be grounds for editing the article, but I wanted to capture a piece of information about that figure. Benjamin Ramm, FRSA, writing in the New York Times (Sept. 1, 2017) wrote "To illustrate the complexity of the controversy, it should be noted that the statue ("Notre-Dame de Pilar") was commissioned as a copy of a much-admired earlier Madonna. Her name? 'Notre-Dame la Blanche' — 'Our Lady the White One'." "A Controversial Restoration That Wipes Away the Past" That information lends weight against the criticisms of the restoration that removed the darkened surface as supposedly "whitewashing" the figure. It also suggests that it's possible that in other instances, figures that are popularly considered to be "black" are likewise simply discolored from age and environmental degradation. Bricology (talk) 08:34, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria for this page - Rainbow Madonna
A brief blurb was removed using rather non-inclusive language. Many of the items on this list have rather scant sourcing (or even no sourcing at all). The Rainbow Madonna (which is a black Madonna with a rainbow halo) has been covered extensively in international media and would seem WP:DUE for this page in light of other images listed. Do we have a clear criteria for inclusion ? Icewhiz (talk) 07:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Mention of Egypt as main place yet no church is listed.
I suggest either removing egypt or bringing evidence if any black Madonna there 88.147.37.191 (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Mention of Ethiopia
AFAIK, the earliest surviving Ethiopian religious icons date to the 13th century at the earliest; much of the oldest art has been destroyed in warfare over the centuries. Probably it would be more accurate to say no icons date earlier than the 14th century. (Under Dawit I & Zara Yaqob mariology experienced a major flourishing.) So unless someone can cite a specific example of an Ethiopian icon dating before the Zagwe dynasty, this country should also be removed.