Talk:Black Sabbath/Archive 1

Joe Seigler
RE: Joe Seigler. Joe Seigler is a fan of Black Sabbath and runs a fan site dedicated to Black Sabbath. He does a real good job in this hobby. So good is his volunteer web site dedicated to Black Sabbath that the people who actually own the name Black Sabbath don't spend any time creating an official site.

Siegler also has a volunteer relationship setting up websites for two members of Black Sabbath but is in no way employed by anyone who has anything to do with Black Sabbath despite his constant claim to the contrary. It is contrary to the goals of Wikipedia to allow this guy to claim that he is what he is not or aid him by blocking other users who point this fact out.

Below is a clip from his user page where he claims to be what he is not.

Hey, my name is Joe Siegler; I'm the webmaster for these sites:

Apogee Software / 3D Realms, a game maker. The rock band Black Sabbath. Geezer Butler, bassist of Black Sabbath Bill Ward, drummer for Black Sabbath Cozy Powell, the former late drummer for Black Sabbath, Rainbow, and many others. Dopefish; a game character from Commander Keen, an old game from 1990-1991 from my company. The church I attend in Garland, Texas.

It should reflecthis VOLUNTEER capacity for s Black Sabbath FAN site. But every attempt that someone makes to do this results in them being blocked which is against Wikipedia policy and mission.

Images
Where did the images for many of their albums go???

Has Dio rejoined?
According to black-sabbath.com, Dio has rejoined the band, but I donno how verifiable the information is, seeing as it's a fansite. Can anyone verify this? Runedance 05:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Dio has re-united with Iommi/Butler. But it isn't Black Sabbath. The new collaboration is called Heaven and Hell. And it is mentioned in the Black Sabbath article as well. 156.34.213.227 10:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New album?
So, any word yet if Black Sabbath is going to go back into the studio? If they are, they won't be the only band with a 12-year studio hiatus: D.R.I.'s last album came out in 1995, too. Should Sabbath decide to return to the studio, they need to make sure that it's something that can stand with the rest of their albums. But knowing Sabbath, they won't go back if they're not certain. URFG 19:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)URFG

D.R.I.? Interesting diversion.Electrokinesis 06:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

occult issues
In the article a comment is made to the effect that occult and magic were referred to in their songs 'to the exclusion of other subjects' this is wrong and indeed tantamount to urban myth in relation to the band. Indeed with the exception of the songs on Black Sabbath the album I struggle to think of any others with overt occult references. Take Paranoid and go through the tracks(since this is their 2nd album you would expect it to be an occult-fest if the authors premise is true).Warpigs-as discussed about the vietnam war(yes it actually mentions 'witches at black masses'but only in reference to the evil of politicians).Paranoid;somewhat obvious.Planet Caravan;spacey and mellow scifi/fantasy(no sacrificial goats).Iron man;strong scifi imagery.Hand of Doom;drugs.Fairies wear boots;drugs.Electric funeral;nuclear war

POV issues
The wording of this article doesn't sit well with me. There is too much "Black Sabbath is the *real* heavy metal" for a proper encyclopedia article. Either experts should be referenced giving their opinions about how Black Sabbath compares to Led Zep, et al, or the claims about Sabbath's superiority should be removed. Example: "Even though Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Cream, and Deep Purple had a profound influence on the emergence of hard rock and heavy metal music, Black Sabbath was the first true heavy metal band." --iwakura42

Um i think Black Sabbath were the first heavy rock band, i think judas priest were the first heavy metal band. im not dissin on sabbath but they dont really have any of attributes of being metal, with exception to some songs. (even if they were called so by the press) - paulo


 * Remember, you can always make edits you think are appropriate and necessary rather than add tags like this. In any event, take a look at the POV-stripping I just did and, if you think it's close enough, remove the tag.  I didn't touch the later history sections which aren't as blantantly POV but could really use some tightening up by someone who is interested.  Jgm 13:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I've changed some bits, out of time now, but really needs more work, I love Black Sabbath, but this is an encyclopedia - not a fan site. If you disagree with any of the changes I made (wasn't logged in - forgot) feel free to change them back, but I simply disagreed with some of them (particularly about influences with modern heavy metal music, I believe what Cream and Led Zeppelin did earlier on had much more of an impact and also the more successful style of them lead to greater influence in that time over Black Sabbath). Simonj2

Hi, shouldn't Sabbath be classified as a Hard Rock Band while being one of the prime influences/progenitors behind Heavy Metal? 61.17.68.48 21:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Drop D
I've heard that Tony Iommi invented drop d tuning as a result of a missing or mutilated tuning, not sure if this is true, but if it is, it should definitely be mentioned here. Zelmerszoetrop 03:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He did use lowered tunings to lessen the strain on the tips of his injured fingers...but he didn't invent it. And, even if he did, that sort of info is better suited to the Tony Iommi article and not this article. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 03:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe the first guitarist to use it was Robby krieger wasn't it? In the song The end, correct me if I'm wrong —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.16.5 (talk) 13:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

This probably wasn't invented by a single guitarist, since all it is is detuning the low E string down a whole step. I can think of a couple instances where it was probably used prior to Sabbath's first album. -Fendersmasher 01:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Black Sabbath did not use Drop-D on their records, they dropped ALL the strings. Led Zeppelin in 1974 uses Drop-D in the song Going To California from Led Zeppelin IV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.124.36 (talk) 23:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

influence

 * The bands who (were) influenced (by) Black Sabbath (include) Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey, Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Oddyssey and Trial By Fire, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Alice in Chains, Faith No More, Danzig, Mercyful Fate, King Diamond, Melvins, Queens Of The Stone Age, The Offspring, Black Flag, and Tool are the bands who had influenced Black Sabbath on some heavy metal bands who cut on one of the albums.

This doesn't make much sense, and what sense that is in it seems backwards. --Ihcoyc

I removed the modern incarnation of the above:

Influence:

Black Sabbath had a notable influence on Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey, Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Oddyssey and Trial By Fire, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Alice in Chains, Faith No More, Danzig, Mercyful Fate, King Diamond, KoЯn, Melvins, Guttermouth, The Offspring, Queens Of The Stone Age, Crass, Black Flag, and Tool.

I'm not saying there's not a place for this in the article, but this is not the way to do it. Tuf-Kat


 * The Offspring? Malmsteen? Tool? What have you been smoking? Tool's music sounds nothing like Black Sabbath's.  The only thing that Sabbath has in common with a lot of these bands is dark imagery and a penchant for loud rock guitar. -- goatasaur

Sorry bud, but the fact that Offspring, Malmsteen and Tool don't SOUND exactly like Sabbath doesn't mean they weren't influenced by Sabbath. These musical acts have most likely sited Sabbath as an influence themselves. I can definitely point out the obvious influences (with song and bar references) if you like. P.S. Why are Black Sabbath being refered to as a "metal" band? Their music is miles away from metal and they have said themselves many times that they have no connection to metal. I'm sure most of you will agree that they define hard rock/blues.


 * I can assure you that Black sabbath were not an influence on Crass, unlike John Cage and Benjamen Britten, who believe it or not, definately were! quercus robur

System of a down was also heavily influenced by Black Sabbath, as they have stated in many interviews and have done several tributes to Sabbath.

band name
I apologize for muddling the issue of the origin of the band name. The "Dennis Wheatley novel" story is told in the liner notes for the Rhino Records Black Sabbath box set, as it is in most all web bios of the band, which seemed authoritative enough, but a bit more research does indeed show that there is some dispute about this -- in particular there is an interesting interview with Geezer Butler where he discusses the origin of the name of the song without mentioning either the film or the supposed novel. What does seem to be clear (from many many sources including the "official" biography "Black Sabbath" which is excerpted on Amazon) is that Butler was into the occult and in particular a fan of Wheatley, that he wrote the song first, and that the band was named after the song. I've re-drafted to reflect this without repeating the seeming wrong conventional story about a novel that doesn't appear to exist. Jgm 23:01, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To my eye, the interview doesn't seem to say much of anything on the matter. In my understanding the film is the most agreed-upon source. If there is a larger discussion about this, then by all means let's have it. Aaronbrick 01:31, 01 Dec 2004 (PDT)

Erm.
After adding something to the Black Sabbath (band) section, assuming that there was indeed no article on black sabbath. I wrote my own article, I then found this one soon after. If anybody would like to combine parts of mine with the current one, fill free.

Arguably the most influential metal band of all time, some have even labeled Black Sabbath as the "fathers of metal". Being the founding force in defining the sound of heavy metal, the band derived metal from the blues-rock sound of the late 1960's. The original lineup consisted of Ozzy Osbourne, vocals; Tony Iommi, guitar; Terence Butler, bass; and Bill Ward, drums. The band was formed by four teenage friends near Aston, Birmingham. Originally named Earth, the band soon after changed its name to Black Sabbath, named after the book by Dennis Wheatley.

Well, the last thing's wrong, the book might have been written by dennis wheatley, but it was the movie that inspired them; i really don't think they ever read the book.

First Albums Debut
Black Sabbath was signed onto Phillips Records in 1969. In January 1970, the Phillips subsidiary Fontana released their debut single, "Evil Woman"; the single did not chart. The next month, a different Phillips subsidiary, Vertigo, released Black Sabbath's self-titled debut album. The album was an immediate success in the U.K. topping the top 10 chart almost immediately. In the United States, the album was licensed to Warner Bros. Records. It was released in the United States during May of 1970, three months later reaching the top 40 of American charts; holding that position for a year. Promptly releasing a second album during September 1970, The band had even more success, achieving number three on the U.S. charts. Along with their first album, remaining in the top 40 charts for over a year.

Master of Reality, their third album, was released in August of 1971. Practically sharing the same success as the previous albums. Three albums were released between 1970 and 1971 alone.

1972
"Iron Man" was released as a single in 1972 in the United States, becoming one of the best selling singles in American musical history. Later on that year, Black Sabbath, Vol. 4 was released. The album sold over a million copies, making it the fourth success for the band.

1973
In 1973 the band acquired keyboard player, Rick Wakeman from Yes. Later that year they released Sabbath Bloody Sabbath in November. The album was Sabbath's fifth consecutive time to hit the top 10 charts.

1974-1979
The group struggled for the first time in 1974 since it released its first album. Due to managerial disputes the band was stalled until July 1975. They returned with their sixth album, Sabotage. Due to a shift of American musical atmosphere, the album struggled. It did, however, reach the top 20 on the American charts. Responding quickly to this change, Black Sabbath released the colossal-selling album, We Sold Our Soul for Rock 'N' Roll.

Disagreement with changing several musical elements in the band was resisted firmly by Osbourne. Eventually several new elements were introduced in their eighth album, Technical Ecstasy. The album sold well, but did not live up to the sales of previous albums. This eventually led to Osbourne leaving the band in November of 1977.

Osbourne was replaced by former Savoy Brown singer, Dave Walker; Osbourne then came back and the band recorded Never Say Die!. The album did modestly, and Osbourne eventually left for a solo career. Later on he was replaced by Ronnie James Dio, a former Rainbow singer.

1980-1989
The band presumed recording in 1980 with Heaven and Hell. The band regained its crown, achieving two top 10 singles. Bill Ward then left Black Sabbath due to health related issues. He was replaced by Vinnie Appice. Mob Rules was recorded in November of 1981, resulting in another success.

Due to severe conflict over the mixing of the album, Ronnie James Dio left the band in 1983 after Live Evil was released in January of 1983. The band seemingly fell apart.

Eventually Black Sabbath got together again by convincing their original drummer, Bill Ward, to return to the band. The band also obtained Ian Gillan, the former singer of a rival band, Deep Purple. This was a shocking move for many Black Sabbath fans.

The band recorded Born Again with Gillan, becomming another moderatally sucessful album. Gillan stuck with the band until March of 1984 when he decided to reunite with Deep Purple. He was replaced by Dave Donato.

After a momentary reunion with Ozzy Osbourne in 1985, Geezer Butler left the band. With their album Seventh Star, released in 1986, guitarist Tony Iommi emphasized his guitar playing for the first time. Another Deep Purple singer, Glenn Hughes, was aquired as part of the band for the recording of the album. He was eventually replaced by Ray Gillen in March of 1986, Tony Iommi was now practically the head of the band, and changes needed to be made. At this point, Black Sabbath's most unsuccessful album ever was released, Eternal Idol.

In the spring of 1988, Kerrang! magazine ran a hoax story saying that Tom Jones had joined Tony Iommi and Bill Ward (no bassist) in Black Sabbath. There was rarely any comment from the band about this, except for a 1990 Kerrang! story where then-bassist Neil Murray said of the band's current stage show, "naturally, we'll have a mirrored ball for when Tom Jones comes out"--MarshallStack 04:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

1990-2001
During what seemingly appeared to be the commercial fall of Black Sabbath, Cozy Powell, Geoff Nicholls, and Neil Murray; along with Iommi and Martin released Forbidden in 1995. Its success was limited, and not substantial.

In 1999 the band reunited and toured 29 cities in the United States. There were the beginnings of plans to reform and write new material, however those have currently failed.

Discography

 * ''Black Sabbath - 1970
 * ''Paranoid - 1970
 * ''Masters of Reality - 1971
 * ''Black Sabbath, Volume 4 - 1972
 * ''Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - 1973
 * ''Sabotage - 1975
 * ''We Sold Our Soul for Rock 'n' Roll - 1975
 * ''Technical Ecstasy - 1977
 * ''Never Say Die - 1978
 * ''Heaven and Hell - 1980
 * ''Mob Rules - 1981
 * ''Live Evil - 1983
 * ''Born Again - 1983
 * ''Seventh Star - 1986
 * ''The Eternal Idol - 1987
 * ''Headless Cross - 1989
 * ''Tyr - 1990
 * ''Dehumanizer - 1992
 * ''Cross Purposes - 1994
 * ''Forbidden - 1995

Picture Needs ID's
The only person I can identify in the band picture is Ozzy. I'm sure this will be the case with most people. Can somebody add text under the picture to tell who's who?
 * Done--TheChin! 18:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

NME award
The line regarding Ozzy "never getting the attention he deserved" is not only incredibly fanboy, but also wrong. He got an NME award for "godlike genius" in 2004. Not sure how much it counts for, but it is something.

http://www.nme.com/news/107506.htm

I would agree with this, definitely. Especially in the US, Ozzy is regarded as BEING Black Sabbath and a lot of people only regard the Ozzy-era albums as actual Black Sabbath albums, with the exception of a few people who also like the Dio era. The current "greatest hits live" package trotted out every year at OzzFest is regarded almost as Ozzy and a backing band.--MarshallStack 22:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Albums and songs
I created the articles The Eternal Idol, Forbidden, Past Lives, Symptom of the Universe: The Original Black Sabbath 1970-1978, and all the songs in the category Black Sabbath songs, cept for 2 or 3 of them. Could someone find album reviews for those albums perhaps? Thanks, Redwolf24 (Talk) 3 July 2005 08:08 (UTC)

Cross Purposes Live
That album is only available on DVD, and as a live album its pretty much the same as the normal album. Maybe put a note at Cross Purposes but I don't think we need it under the album section here. Redwolf24 3 July 2005 08:19 (UTC)

I have the original 1995 release of this, and at that time it came with both a VHS of the full show and an edited audio CD (which, for some reason, edits out the two Dio-era songs: "Neon Knights" and "The Mob Rules"). So, yes, at one time this could have been considered to have been available on "album" because of the audio CD. I haven't seen the DVD.--MarshallStack 22:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Black Sabbath and Psychedelic Rock
The word "psychedelic" does not appear no article, even though it is somewhat natural to see Black Sabbath's early music heavily influenced by psychedelic rock. I guess psychedelic rock (stuff like Doors and Cream's Disraeli Gears and many Hendrix's numbers) was a kind of bridge between the early blues rock and Black Sabbath's music. Adventurous compositions and distorted guitars all come from psychedelic rock, and Black Sabbath develops that thing into something new.

Doom Metal
Black Sabbath is an influence on the genre of Doom Metal, but never came anywhere close to playing in that sub-genre, as would be evident if you look at the article it links to. I am removing that line, as well as the clumsily worded "and thus heavy metal was created" line before it, since I feel that is adequately covered in the next paragraph. GiveBlood
 * Good move, solid reasoning. Jgm 20:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * If you listen to Their S/T and Master of reality and some songs off Paranoid ex. "Planet Caravan", "Hand of Doom", and Electric Funeral". Those are prime examples of doom metal. That is what doom metal bands like Pentagram based their style upon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.16.5 (talk) 13:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
 * They are a doom metal band. They are the original doom metal band. Sure, the term was invented later, but doom fans apply it to many older bands. Orange ginger 15:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No. Actually in the time when S/T was released out, Black Sabbath already 'jokingly' coined the term-"doom-metal" or more accurately "doom-rock", but later, bands like Pentagram, Candlemass, Saint Vitus or earlier "stoner/doom"-bands like Electric Wizard or Cathedral (or even the firstwave's death/doom bands, like The Gathering, Tiamat, Katatonia, My Dying Bride, Winter, diSEMBOWELMENT, Asphyx, Incantation, Anathema, Paradise Lost, Autopsy, Bolt Thrower and Sorrow) played on the same way of style or at least on style that is very much close to early Black Sabbath's style, but also used that term on more serius way. So that's why Black Sabbath is considered as first doom band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.23.199 (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Influences on grunge-scene
It might be an idea to add the influence Black Sabbath had on the grunge-scene, IMHO. The band didn't only have a profound (?) influence on metal; bands like Nirvana, Mudhoney and other grungebands are (to some degree) influenced by Black Sabbath.
 * Mudhoney were not fans of metal as a genre in particular and more influenced by punk rock. Job  e  6  Peru flag large.png 03:24, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains were heavily influenced by them. WesleyDodds 07:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Guitar Tuning
"Another innovation was the by-product of an accident: Iommi's fretting fingers were injured in an industrial accident during his early tenure with Earth. He was working in a sheet metal factory at the time and the tops of the two middle fingers on his right hand were sliced off. Initially, he forged himself prosthetics from a melted plastic detergent bottle. The injured fingers were understandably tender, so Iommi downtuned his Gibson guitar from standard E to C#. The resultant slackness of the string allowed him to play with less bother to his fingertips. Butler also downtuned his bass guitar to more easily follow Iommi's playing. The lower pitch often seemed 'heavier' or more substantive, and Black Sabbath were perhaps the first popular group to downtune. The practice of downtuning is now common — perhaps even standard — among metal groups."

This paragraph is mostly false and misleading. It states Iommi's accident occured when Sabbath was called Earth, which would have been before Sabbath released any albums, obviously. The fact is, Iommi did not downtune his guitar at all the on the first two Black Sabbath albums(Black Sabbath and Paranoid). The first album he tuned to a C# on was Master of Reality. Later albums were downtuned, but not always to a C#.


 * Hi. I'd also like to add that Sabbath definitely not the first band to downtune. At least one other band did this before them, and that would be Led Zeppelin, who have some songs tuned down a whole step on their 1969 album Led Zeppelin II


 * I don't believe this is true, but if you think it is you need to at the very least list which songs are allegedly downtuned. As an avid guitar player and Zeppelin fan, I cannot think of a single one that album.


 * EDIT: ^What you are saying is false. Led Zeppelin used DADGAD tuning not full step down.


 * Anyways, Tony Iommi did loose his fingers when the band was called Earth. He didn't tune a whole and a half step down until 1971(third album). He found it more comfortable fr his fingers. He didn't tune to C# until MUCH later


 * Yeah you guys are right, the first two albums i believe are in standard tuning, mor is in c# but after this album they started tuning to eb. i think someone shuld change that on the main page. - Paulo


 * Let me get this straight, Black Sabbath and Paranoid were in standard tuning. Master Of Reality, Vol. 4, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage were all in C#. That's all I know. All the albums after that I have no clue about.

"Stonehenge" trivia
What remained of the "Born Again" Stonehenge stage set was reportedly offered to the city of Lake Havasu City, Arizona for display along with the reconstructed London Bridge, but this was declined.--MarshallStack 04:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Jeff Fenholt
Most fans of the band know the story behind Jeff Fenholt and his involvement with "Seventh Star", when he auditioned for Tony Iommi. I worked with a young lady who was an evangelical Christian who told me in 1996 she was going to hear the former singer of Black Sabbath at a Christian service. I wondered who this could be; my first thought was David Donato, until she showed me a flyer advertising the service that had Fenholt's name on it. This was the first I ever heard of Fenholt and I told her he was never in Black Sabbath (I named her all the vocalists from Ozzy to then-vocalist Tony Martin) but she was quite insistent that he was.--MarshallStack 05:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Black Sabbath (song)
I heard something a lot differently about the song. Although it was true that Geezer used to be into occult stuff, he was freaked out when relatives of his started getting real sick. Ozzy suggested he get out of the occult stuff, and contributed to writing the song. Also, their name is from the movie, not the book (that info taken straight form an interview with Ozzy).

Oh hell naw!
"...Sadly, this reunion took over all Sabbath activities, meaning that Tony Martin, etc., were no longer in the band. Black Sabbath has been little more than a nostalgia act ever since, performing the same basic set every time out with no studio work forthcoming aside from two poorly executed songs on a reunion live set. The viability and relevance of Black Sabbath has been seriously damaged since 1997."

I'm deleting this due to a lack of objectivity.

Holly Jolly Sabbath
I want to recommend that Holly Jolly Sabbath be added as an entry to Wikipedia. It is an annual party started in Brooklyn, New York in 2001. It is a simple holiday traditon that involves three simple elements. A Christmas tree with blinking lights, Claree, and all of the Black Sabbath records. It is a simple party to do. One simply needs the above three things and maybe some weed. It takes place on the Sunday before Christmas day after sunset when all participants gather in a dark space lite only by the tree, they consume Claree which is a spiced red wine from Medieval times, and they listen to all the Black Sabbath records in order from the first until the last. It was started in the early seventies by a man named Chuck from Montana. When he moved to Brooklyn he and several friends decided to make it an annual affair. All are encouraged to celebrate this day wherever they might be. Equaltoheaven 04:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)Wolfy

Dang, that does sound like a blast!!!

Paranoid is a Vietnam protest song 'particularly against British involvement.'?!?!?!?
Exactly what 'British involvement' would that be? No British troops were involved in the Vietnam war. Ever. And the US actually refrained from bombing North Vietnamese ports when requested so as not to damage British shipping which continued to trade there. Please take this bit out or I will.Samgb 14:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

War Pigs was a war protest song, but definitely not paranoid. http://www.black-sabbath.com/faq/faq11.htm. Check out War Pigs and Paranoid. I'm not sure how to rectify the sentence, but I would include that Paranoid was originally supposed to be filler. And I believe War Pigs was suppose to be the title track, so that bit should stay. marnues 02:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes its not made absolutely clear in the original article but obviously refers to War Pigs in particular. I stand by everything else i said above though! Just what is this supposed British involvement? I am all ears! We just werent there!Samgb 09:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Since no one else did, I edited the section. I removed the bit about British involvement in the Vietnam War and made War Pigs the protest song. It doesn't flow very well however, so if anyone could fix it up for me I would be greatly appreciative. marnues 23:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

With the symptoms described in the song, "Paranoid" really should have been called "Clinically Depressed." Not quite as catchy, but it would have been cool, no?

New Sabbath Album
In the newest addition to the article, there is a section about a new album. Its fairly biased against Ozzy and I think unjustly so. It states that Ozzy has refused to work with the original line-up. bet my understanding is that he was very enthusiastic about it, as were the rest of the members. But after several tries Ozzy (and maybe the others aswell) decided they couldn't make an album worthy of the Sabbath name. I'm going to change it so it is less abrasive towards Ozzy, but I encourage whoever wrote it to come up with some more relevant sources. marnues 18:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Tone down POV
I was worried about this article a while back (the lack of a proper History section was most troubling), but some good work has been done in the last few days. however, there still remains a problem with objectivity. A lot of of the prose still needs to be toned down to conform to a neutral point of view. WesleyDodds 09:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Template box...
I have just made a Black Sabbath template box, please help me by putting it at the end of articles about Black Sabbath... - Prodigenous Zee 05:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Mike Bordin was NOT a member of Black Sabbath
Can someone please take Mike Bordin's name off of the template box at the bottom of each Sabbath album review? He was a session musician just like Rick Wakeman, Adam Wakeman, etc, during Ozzfest 1997 and that's it. It wasn't even a Sabbath tour....it was just Geezer and Tony joining Ozzy onstage at the end of each night for a few Sabbath tunes. Bordin happened to be Ozzy's drummer, and since Bill wasn't involved, they just used Ozzy's drummer. He was never a member of the band and needs to be removed from the template box (which is great, by the way)

Thanks

Randy Rhoads
Why isnt Randy Rhoads discussed in any of this?

Simple. He never played in Black Sabbath.

Mike Bordin Again
Yes it was Black Sabbath in 1997. Mike Bordin was hired by Sharon for the Black Sabbath tour, it wasn't Tony & Geezer joining Ozzy as you claim it is. -- Joe Siegler, webmaster www.black-sabbath.com.

Nope, sorry man. Bordin was a session musician.
No matter what website you run, which might as well be called "I sleep with Geoff Nicholls and Tony Martin," you actually stated the exact truth. Bordin was HIRED, as a session drummer. The band never ever ever promoted themselves as Black Sabbath untiul Ward joined the fold. I worked on the 1997 Ozzfest tour.....Ozzy played a set, and Tony & Geezer joined at the end, with Ozzy's drummer, for a few tunes. Confirmed.

Bordin Again
Confirmed? What's to confirm? I was there. I saw the show. It was definitely billed as Black Sabbath, I have a ticket stub and concert ads to prove it. I work for Bill Ward & Geezer Butler, doing their websites, I'm well versed in the situation and what happened. I stand by my statements on the grounds that I am in the emply of people directly involved and are in the band. Dopefish 05:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC) (aka Joe Siegler, Black Sabbath & Geezer Butler's Webmaster)

The official Black Sabbath site lists Bordin as joining the band, surely that merits his inclusion? Sasaki 08:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

=
============

Your site is nothe official Black Sabbath site. There is no official site. And yes we know about your love affair with Geoff Nicholls. And we're also familiar with your very messy and uneccessary lineup page where you count session musicians as band members

yes, yes Joe. You are in the "empoly" so what do you make? Nothing Joe, becasue that is what THEY BOTH tell me. You are an enthusiastic volunteer who posts stuff when you are told to and often post things that are not even true simply becasue they come from one of your "connections." YOU ARE NOT THE OFFICIAL SITE, sorry don't know any more than any other FAN. Stop acting like you know something you don't.

=
============

1) Joe obviously knows way more than you do; it seems obvious that you haven't taken the time to look at his pages lately.

2) Love affair with Geoff Nichols? Seriously, grow up!

3) Mike Bordin's bass drum clearly displayed Black Sabbath's name on the front side during the shows he played.

4) Someone who personally runs Bill Ward and Geezer Butler's websites has far more credibility than you. "That is what they both tell me" is not proof enough to justify your argument.Electrokinesis 06:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 05:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Why is the current picture of Black Sabbath for Wikipedia, a current picture?!

Their prime was in the early 70s, post a picture from back in the day for Christ's sake...They're probably taking Viagra these days, (No offense to the Gods of metal). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.184.78.43 (talk • contribs).

Nationality
Why is it deemed appropriate to seperate British bands down in to their native backgrounds such as English, Scottish and Welsh? These are not countries as such, they are a part of the United Kingdom and under UN recognised law they are therefore British.

I am from the 'English' part of the UK, I hold a British passport and it doesn't say i'm an 'English Citizen', it says I am a 'British Citizen'.

The realms known as Scotland and England have not existed for 300+ years.

I think i'm making a valid enough point that there needs to be a standard set for wikipedia, because to state that someone is English is incorrect.

I've noticed that this error appears all over wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.111.22.241 (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Fix it, dont' blank the page. -- Drini 04:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Polka Tulk into article?
The merge proposal has been up since March... is there any reason to not merge Polka Tulk into Black Sabbath's page? I'd do it, but I hesitate because perhaps Polka Tulk did something notable besides be the band before they became the band that became Black Sabbath. It just seems like something that should be a passing mention in this article as opposed to its own. - Curtangel 23:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Black Sabbath and Heavy Metal
Black Sabbath had a lot of influence on Heavy Metal, sure, but they aren't a metal band...just Hard Rock or Proto-Doom Metal...their music influenced a lot of artists of different genres ( for example Heavy Metal, Doom Metal, Sludge Metal or Stoner Rock ), mostly metal, but this don't make them a metal band. BrainCoder 19:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The job is not to classify them ourselves, if there are some references that conform to the standard that say that by all means, add it in, a large part of the readership will not have the foggiest what proto-doom is as the general classification they have been given is heavy metal, as has been cited in the article. I normally find their records in the Heavy Metal section of Virgin, HMV et al.--Alf melmac 19:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Dio - we should list him for 2006 - 2007
The new single and compilation album's new songs were released as Black Sabbath. They're TOURING as Heaven and Hell but performed as Sabbath then.(The Elfoid 16:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC))


 * They're 2 seperate entities. No need to mention Dio here. It can be mentioned in the H&H article. 156.34.218.199 17:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

He just released a new single and 3 new songs on a compilation album WITH BLACK SABBATH. That's why they're not listed on Heaven and Hell's page. I initially thought as you did and other people convinced me otherwise. They're released by Black Sabbath as Black Sabbath on a Black Sabbath compilation which is filled to the rafters with Black Sabbath songs compiled by Black Sabbath. Heaven and Hell is the TOURING NAME and does NOT include the new songs. (The Elfoid 23:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

iTunes?
Why is it that the iTunes store only carries live versions of their songs? Does anyone know? I have yet to see a single digital version of one of their origional recordings, so is that because of an issue with their record company, their chose, or have I just been looking in the wrong place? 71.242.112.108 21:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Check the band members page
I've attempted to get Dio and Appice posted as session musicians in 2006. Why? Their new single, and the songs on The Dio Years album were written/recorded/mixed with their involvement and credited to Black Sabbath NOT to Heaven and Hell. Working with and for Sabbath on a Sabbath release in the Sabbath name...they were in Black Sabbath session. The new live CD/DVD to accompany the Heaven and Hell tour is being released as being by Heaven and Hell, NOT Black Sabbath clearly differentiating that work (because it can be argued the tour's heaven and hell, any recordings are Sabbath but the band's made it clear the new songs on Dio Years are Black Sabbath not H&H).

The two people who posted explanations to reverts of my edit didn't really impress me, and 2 of them to 1 of me wasn't really a major vote either. It'd be nice if some people went over there and threw in their opinion - even if you're not on my side.

(The Elfoid 16:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC))

Fair use rationale for Image:Black Sabbath Logo.png
Image:Black Sabbath Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 14:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

What's up with the jacked up changes?
Why are the pictures for most of the albums missing?

Why are WWA and NEMS listed as labels for the UK?

I thought these labels just put out crappy budget reissues, much like the cheap $5.99 CD's that were released by "Dorchester Holdings Ltd." here in the US through retailers like the Wherehouse back in the 90's.

As far as I know, Vertigo is still the original label for these releases, especially in other territories outside of the US, Canada and the UK.

Why are the links so small inside of the link box at the bottom?

I cleaned these up a while ago, but they look jacked up now.

Electrokinesis 07:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Genre
Doom Metal = earliest material. (example: the song "Black Sabbath")

Groove Metal = Dio-era material. (example: "The Mob Rules")

Point made. Dark Executioner 21:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Genre for me
I don't agree Black Sabbath earliest album are purely heavy metal. Yes, albums like Paranoid or Master of Reality contain heavy metal riffs, but the music is much different than Iron Maiden or Saxon and those albums contain big influences like progressive rock and blues. I think the albums with Ozzy were hard rock/heavy metal, or hard & heavy --Born Again 83 13:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't based on personal opinion. It's based on citation, reference and verifiability. No POV required. 156.34.142.110 14:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try to find them --Born Again 83 11:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Heavy Metal?!
If albums like Black Sabbath, Paranoid or Sabbath Bloody Sabbath are heavy metal, what kind of albums are the number of the beast or screaming for vengeance? Thrash metal?! Yes, Sabbath are not hard rock like zeppelin or purple but they are not metal like maiden, saxon or priest. Black Sabbath album is strongly influenced by blues and psychedelic rock, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath by progressive rock. Technical Ecstacy and Never Say Die are far away from heavy metal, they seems a little heavier version of the Beatles. You're right, sources are needed, but if Black Sabbath Ozzy Era are considered heavy metal, I don't know! Purely Heavy metal are the albums from Heaven and Hell to Forbidden. --Born Again 83 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That may well be the case, wikipedia does not use info "we know" it uses info that can be attributed and cited, if you are able to cite other genres for specific albums then please, by all means, add those cites.--Alf melmac 14:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Quick note-fansites and wiki-mirrors are not good for sources for references. 156.34.142.110 15:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

For me, the first two sources referred to "heavy metal" aren't authentic, there isn't a link. --Born Again 83 08:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Those are book references. The best refs come from books and professional publications. 156.34.212.94 10:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Although online references are easy to check, personally I value book cites more as there is usually a reference section in them themselves so one can check the original sources, most websites do not reference their sources and are either to be believed or not as the case may be.--Alf melmac 11:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Heaven and Hell: Live at Radio City Music Hall
I submitted a rough template for the forthcoming double album, Heaven and Hell:Live at Radio City Music Hall.

If it is approved, please edit it as you see fit, as it is FAR from a finished article and needs major fixing.

Electrokinesis 01:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Metal Discussion
What does Iron Maiden, Saxon, Judas Priest, and "thrash metal" have anyhting to do with categorizing Sabbath's music? Sabbath is the first metal band, period. But since the group themselves don't really like the term "heavy metal" anyway, I guess maybe you could call them "heavy rock". Tony Iommi has called Sabbath a "hard rock" band before, but Sabbath doesn't really fit the accepted definition of a "hard rock" band. And please, don't ever compare Sabbath to the Beatles again. Sabbath is far superior as a band and as an influence on modern music. Of course, this is my opinion.Electrokinesis 01:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Blues Company or Blues Band?
Hey,

I probably jumped the gun & deserved to have my change reversed, so I'm interested to know where the information comes from that Black Sabbath were ever called "Polka Tulk Blues Company"? In 28 years as a fan, in all the interviews I've ever read/listened to, the band members refer to the line-up as "Polka Tulk Blues Band". A very quick google turns up this poster advertising a show at the time:



I know this isn't conclusive, but where is the evidence that they were called 'Company' not 'Band'?

It's not a big deal. I'm just very curious now! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.33.207 (talk) 11:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Live At Last / tuning
In your article about Black Sabbath,there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about a bootleg tape known as Live At last. The Live At Last that was released in 1980 was a video evidently made when they were on tour with Never Say Die shortly before Ozzy was fired. The bootleg tape you refer to was around in the mid 70's. I got my copy around 1975. The album,of whitch I can find no mention of in your article,Past Lives, was released in 2002 as a two disc set and disc 1 is Live At Last exactly as it appears on my 1975 tape. Disc 2 contians pieces of other bootleg tapes that was around in the 70's.

About tuning. There seems to be some confusion there as well. First 2 albums standard tuning. All other Ozzy albums C#,F#,B,E,G#,C#. Dio albums D#,G#,C#,F#,A#,D#. The last tuning can also be found on Reunion and The Last Supper,look for the old guitar and you will notice Geezer changes basses too. The Live At Last video is in standard tuning.The Live At Last video was also known as A Decade Of Black Sabbath.76.252.45.162 23:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.203.119 (talk) 09:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Label Edits
I received this message after making changes to most of the album label information:

>>>>>>Hi there. I notice you keep reverting the changes I made to Black Sabbath (album) and Paranoid (album). Please note (as I noted in my edit summaries) that the label and release date sections of the infobox should only include the original label and release date, per WP:ALBUM#Label and WP:ALBUM#Released. The additional release details have been moved to the "Release history" sections. Please stop reinstating this information into the infobox. Thank you. --(name withheld) 21:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know exactly who this person is, but unless they are an official Wiki moderator, their word has no authority with me.

I have listed Vertigo, Warner Bros. and Sanctuary as the official labels for each appropriate album's content.

Since Black Sabbath's albums have been released by a wide variety of labels, officially and as bootlegs, I decided only to retain the original and current releases that are available.

You can verify this by looking at Joe Siegler's Black Sabbath website at black-sabbath.com or at discogs.com/artist/Black+Sabbath

If the rest of you disagree with my changes, that's fine; however, I stand by my sources and I will not be intimidated by a single individual of the group. This is especially true if you list conflicting or erroneous information that screws up the respective article in question.

Good day. Electrokinesis 02:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The note above was from me. I don't know what an official Wiki moderator is, but we do have guidelines for albums. You can read about them at WP:ALBUM. As noted above, the guideline for release dates and labels in the infobox are at WP:ALBUM and WP:ALBUM respectively. They say that only the first release date and label should be included in the infobox. In the case of for example Black Sabbath (album) this means including only the release date and label for the original UK release in the infobox. The other release dates and labels can be listed in the "Release history" section (see WP:ALBUM). --PEJL 05:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * BTW, what conflicting or erroneous info are you referring to? --PEJL 05:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know the note was from you, but I didn't want to "put you on blast", so to speak. There have been no errors made by you specifically, but I did notice mistakes made to the entries for 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath' and 'We Sold Our Soul For Rock and Roll'.

However, it must be considered that since the band has had multiple label deals that are still in effect, listing Vertigo as the sole company causes confusion. Wiki does have guidelines, but they are exactly that - 'guidelines'. It's not a stone set rule, and there are plenty of band articles that follow the same format; see 'Nirvana', 'Metallica', 'Iron Maiden', 'AC/DC', 'Motley Crue'; etc.

To quote the Wiki template: "....this is only a guide and you should feel free to personalize an article as you see fit."

One last thing: if you're doing to stick to this "rule" you've set for everyone, you might as well do it to the rest of the albums in the list as well. After all, consistency is key; espcially for a band as important as Black Sabbath.Electrokinesis 05:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * (I know you know the note was from me, I was making that remark for the benefit of others.) I haven't created this rule, it was created by consensus by WikiProject Albums. The guideline applies specifically to cases like this, where an album has been released on more than one label. I see no reason why an exception should be made in this case. And yes, it should be applied to other albums by this artist as well. (I only started with a few albums because I predicted that my changes would initially get reverted.) --PEJL 07:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"Truce". I have decided to end this whole label edit battle between myslef and PEJL, as it has become a major waste of time.

If anyone else wants to make changes to the album pages, I suggest having a great deal of patience when dealing with those in opposition to your contributions.Electrokinesis 22:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If by this you mean that you will start following the guidelines, that is good news. I'd also like to point out that extended personnel info should be provided in a "Personnel" section (per WP:ALBUM), not in the "Producer" field of the infobox (which is only for the name of the producer, per WP:ALBUM). Remember that the infobox is only meant to summarize the contents in the rest of the article. Have a nice day. --PEJL 22:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)